What feats take too long to get going? (Or are just underwhelming)

[ShroudedInLight]

I’m working on some Fighter changes for my campaign, the exact details are in flux but I’d be happy to share them in Homebrew when I’m done. Meanwhile, I’d like to tap on the communities collective consciousness to find feat chains that just take too long to fire off, or when they do fire off they end up being extremely lack luster. I know about stuff like Cleave, Vital Strike, anything to do with the Aldori Dueling Sword, and that there are a few style feats that are just silly. There are however a lot of feats out there, and so I’d welcome being pointed in the right direction.

[UnArcaneElection]

For starters, Advanced Weapon Training is explicitly unavailable until level 5 (unless you are a Weapon Master), and it includes such things as Versatile Training (to get some skill ranks). Another one (since you brought up Style Feats, but that includes SO MANY: The Elven Battle Style feat chain is conceptually cool but just doesn't deliver until you have paid way too many feat taxes. And speaking of feat taxes, those really eat you when you are trying to be good at Combat Maneuvers. And feat taxes include quite a share of feats that are underwhelming themselves, such as Combat Expertise (usually), Dodge (always), and Weapon Focus (semi). They also include chains that should be 1 feat each, but instead keep making you pay and pay and pay, like the Cleave mini-chain, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Vital Strike. They even include some feats that should be 0 feats each, like Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Vital Strike -- these should be things that you just get the option for if you meet the prerequisites.

[Mightypion]

Elephant in the room rules set makes goes into a similar direction.

Things you can probably crib from there:
--Combat expertize, power attack are free, point blank shot, deadly aim also free
--Dodge and mobility get fused into one feat
--Weapon focus applies to a fighter weapon group
--Combat maneuvers are "Powerfull" (bullrush, sunder, overrun and one I forgot) or "deft" (disarm, trip, reposition, steal, think I forgot one here too) or "grapple" for the purposes of "improved" greater version is still specific.

For most style feats, I think you can just turn them into 2 feats, with the benefit from the third feat going into whatever feat is weaker.

Other option: Give your fighter a "Martial school" flexible feat.
Use 1 or more feats from a selection of "not quite good enough" feats, and the fighter can get 1 more feat at low levels, 2 feats at medium levels and 3 feats at high levels, chosing which feats during resting.

[Senko]

piranha strike or most of the spend a feat to use dex to attack but not damage for melee combat as if your not adding it to both your going to be lagging behind a normal combat build.

[zza ni]

the 'Fleet' feat (+5 ft to move speed) is somewhat underwhelming. you always have better things to take then it so i almost never seen any1 take it.
i'd change it ether into +10 ft (and limit how many times it can be taken) or have it give +5 ft and ether +1 to initiative or to ref saves (if you are faster you should be faster in other aspects as well)

[ShroudedInLight]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Snip

Good news is I have you mostly covered there. Exact details are largely irreverent to the current topic but Fighters get access to “advanced training” much earlier.

The big one though, and the one I will post in detail is what I’m doing to ease off feat taxes. Fighters don’t gain a feat on even levels, instead they have this:

Effortless Training:

“Effortless Training (Ex):
Starting at 2nd level, a Fighter’s talent for rapidly learning new abilities grants them intuitive understanding of any advanced ability they could learn. Whenever a Fighter gains a Fighter Level and meets all the qualifications for certain feats, they learn them automatically without needing to select those feats manually. Mark these feats as Effortless Feats on your character sheet. The Fighter must meet all prerequisites for the feat to learn it in this manner without the assistance of spells or abilities, only permanent magical items with a constant effect (such as a Belt of Strength) may assist a Fighter in meeting these qualifications.

The Feats the Fighter may learn through Effortless Training include all feats with “Improved” and “Greater” in their names. This means Fighters automatically gain Improved Initiative and Improved Unarmed Strike as bonus feats at level 2.”

Some new advanced training options add additional feats to this list, like selecting a style feat and adding the style feat and any feat that lists that style feat as a prerequisite to the list of feats you learn when leveling up.

Basically, I’m looking for fear chains to add as new advanced trainings. Stuff like Nightmare Weaver or other fear chains where Improved and Greater won’t cover it.

[zza ni]

does that include improved initiative?
i'm guessing not including non combat feats (say improved and greater drow nobility).

this doesn't help feat taxs and taking away the fighter feats will harm them. try making an archer fighter with and without this and see who's on top. not gaining extra feats for point blank, precise shot, many shot etc will harm more then help an archer fighter.

[zza ni]

back in 3.5 i came upon some1's fighter fix idea. i don't recall a lot of it, but one thing that might be relevant here is (especially with the fighter's mass of feats, i twicked it a bit to fit pathfinder):

'flexible training' = once per day a fighter can train for an hour to swap any one or more bonus feat he received from his class with another he is eligible to take (at a one for one rate). he can change whole sets of feats that have each other as requirements as long as when he finish he has all the requirement for all of his feats. the fighter can't swap away any feat that is required for any other ability or class he might have (such as a prestige class). any new feat must be from the same group that the bonus feat class ability allow.

[ShroudedInLight]

There will be a talent (ie: advanced training except it’s now just a Fighter talent, they get them on even levels) that adds some of the basic archery feats to the list. I’m going to be careful about what I give for free, the idea behind the current version of the ability is that the Fighter will need to buy their way into the stronger options out there and then get given the better versions as long as they meet the prerequisites. This keeps Brawlers identity as the class that can on demand get feats and Ranger/Slayer as the class that skips prerequisites for feats

But we’re getting off track, I’ll be happy to post the full thing when it’s done. For now I need more feat chains that are too cost prohibitive to justify grabbing normally. Moonlight Striker, that sort of thing.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack comes to mind.
The entire Dimensional Dervish line of feats.
Honestly any feat with an Improved or Greater version should just upgrade when you meet the prereqs.

[Zwordsman]

Kirin Strike. I love the series of feats but they just won't work super well in most cases.

Special Mention to Focus Shot. Requires so much (2 feats, and a set up to fight in that close of a range) and has so many restrictions.

Spring Heel Jack. Pretty awesome. but also requires the entire spring attack/shot on the run line.
Excluding some tricky tricks anyway.

[VoodistMonk]

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack comes to mind.

The entire Dimensional Dervish line of feats.
Honestly any feat with an Improved or Greater version should just upgrade when you meet the prereqs.

Dimensional Savant may, indeed, take too long to get going, but it is far from underwhelming... teleport pounce is by far one of the quintessential fantasy gimmicks [for me]. It is absolutely one of the coolest abilities that can grace the battlefield, and is cool/fun any time it appears [like Bladed Dash]. And, the ability to teleport pounce is available to big dumb Fighters, Monks, and martials via Flickering Step... sure add ANOTHER feat to an already ridiculously long feat chain, but it's worth it.

[Mightypion]

Bladed Dash, the real reason by Urban Bloodragers are fun :).

[UnArcaneElection]

^Thanks for the tip. Also some other juicy goodies to pick up with that archetype, but that's a topic for another thread . . . .