How do spontaneous casters swap spells in PFS? How do Uncommon spells work with regards to spontaneous casters in PFS?


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Thanks in advance.

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

You're welcome in advance.

4/5 ***

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For uncommon options in general:

If you don't have access, you cannot take it.
If you do have access, you treat it as common.

This is a bit of an oversimplification of the system in the book, where having access sometimes means treat as common, sometimes does not, on a case by case basis on the part of the GM. But since that would be impractical in PFS, we use the above.

I don't understand the rest of the question.

Envoy's Alliance 3/5 5/55/5 **

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I'm assuming the rest of the question means once I get access to a cool spell, how do I add it to my spell repertoire.

Your class that gives you a spell repertoire gives you chances to pick new spells as you level. It also can give you chances to swap out spells as you level. These would be one way to get the new spell into your repertoire.

There's also a chance to spend 7 days retraining a spell in your repertoire, included in the rules and in the society guide.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So, Uncommon spells can be swapped out just like common spells once you gain access? If you are granted access to an Uncommon scroll via chronicle, do you have to use Learn a Spell to be able to add it to repertoire? Also, where did you come up with the 7 day figure for downtime to swap a spell?

Grand Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Thomas Keller wrote:
So, Uncommon spells can be swapped out just like common spells once you gain access? ... Also, where did you come up with the 7 day figure for downtime to swap a spell?

You would need to check your class for the rules for spell swapping. But taking Bard as an example:

"Bard spell repertoire' wrote:


Swapping Spells in Your Repertoire
As you gain new spells in your repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime.

That said, as far as I can tell, unless the spell was added to your repertoire by a feat it would take 28 days to retrain.

Thomas Keller wrote:
If you are granted access to an Uncommon scroll via chronicle, do you have to use Learn a Spell to be able to add it to repertoire?

That is a very good question.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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We have an answer.

According to the FAQ, you must have Access before you can use Learn a Spell.

Under the Core Rules, Learn a Spell gives you Access. PFS has reversed that order, for whatever reason.

If you have Access to a spell via a Chronicle, all you have to do is Learn a Spell.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

We have an answer.

According to the FAQ, you must have Access before you can use Learn a Spell.

Under the Core Rules, Learn a Spell gives you Access. PFS has reversed that order, for whatever reason.

If you have Access to a spell via a Chronicle, all you have to do is Learn a Spell.

So you do have to Learn a Spell with a chronicle. What about an ACP boon?

Also, is there clarity somewhere on the amount of downtime needed to swap a spell if you have a spell repertoire?

2/5 **

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Thomas Keller wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

We have an answer.

According to the FAQ, you must have Access before you can use Learn a Spell.

Under the Core Rules, Learn a Spell gives you Access. PFS has reversed that order, for whatever reason.

If you have Access to a spell via a Chronicle, all you have to do is Learn a Spell.

So you do have to Learn a Spell with a chronicle. What about an ACP boon?

Also, is there clarity somewhere on the amount of downtime needed to swap a spell if you have a spell repertoire?

Learning a spell takes almost no functional time; it's an exploration activity and not a downtime activity.

Retraining is generally the same as in the core rulebook. So it's 7 days to retrain a spell in your repertoire.

Guide to Organized Play wrote:

Retraining: Using Downtime to retrain character options(Core Rulebook 481) works as written with a few clarifications.

Some items are changeable for free, such as name, gender, appearance, or other cosmetic designators.
Pathfinder training may be changed and costs 14 days.
Changing a selectable class feature, takes 28 days.

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

A spell in your repertoire is clearly not a Skill Training or Feat.

I believe FLite was attributing it to a "selectable class feature," which it certainly is, when he proposed 28 days.

PFS might want to decide how long they want retraining a spell in a spell repertoire to take (7, 28, something in between). 28 days of Downtime is 1.3 levels worth of advancement, which means you can swap out a spell sooner than you can retrain it in PFS, assuming that you only want to swap one at your next level-up.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
cavernshark wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

We have an answer.

According to the FAQ, you must have Access before you can use Learn a Spell.

Under the Core Rules, Learn a Spell gives you Access. PFS has reversed that order, for whatever reason.

If you have Access to a spell via a Chronicle, all you have to do is Learn a Spell.

So you do have to Learn a Spell with a chronicle. What about an ACP boon?

Also, is there clarity somewhere on the amount of downtime needed to swap a spell if you have a spell repertoire?

Learning a spell takes almost no functional time; it's an exploration activity and not a downtime activity.

Retraining is generally the same as in the core rulebook. So it's 7 days to retrain a spell in your repertoire.

Guide to Organized Play wrote:

Retraining: Using Downtime to retrain character options(Core Rulebook 481) works as written with a few clarifications.

Some items are changeable for free, such as name, gender, appearance, or other cosmetic designators.
Pathfinder training may be changed and costs 14 days.
Changing a selectable class feature, takes 28 days.

Yes, but Learn a Spell costs gold and requires a roll. So it would be good to know if you need to do that for ACP boons like Esoteric Spellcasting.

Also, we really need a clarification on the downtime cost to swap a spell.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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Blake's Tiger wrote:

A spell in your repertoire is clearly not a Skill Training or Feat.

I believe FLite was attributing it to a "selectable class feature," which it certainly is, when he proposed 28 days.

PFS might want to decide how long they want retraining a spell in a spell repertoire to take (7, 28, something in between). 28 days of Downtime is 1.3 levels worth of advancement, which means you can swap out a spell sooner than you can retrain it in PFS, assuming that you only want to swap one at your next level-up.

From the Errata, which does not seem to have made it into the second printing

Page 481: Retraining. It wasn't clear how long it took to retrain spells in a spell repertoire, but it should take just 1 week. Add ". Some, like changing a spell in your spell repertoire, take a week." to retraining class features.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

From the FAQ: "Having access to an uncommon or rarer spell means that your character(s) can learn the spell in the same way they learn other spells, provided they meet all prerequisites."

So if your Class requires you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like a Wizard or Magus, then you would still need to pay gold and succeed at your check.

If your Class doesn't require you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like most Spontaneous casters, then you just go about adding it to your repertoire as usual (which might require Retraining, or simply levelling up and swapping something out).

I applied my Esoteric Spellcaster Boon to a Cleric, which doesn't need to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, so I just started preparing it immediately.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

From the FAQ: "Having access to an uncommon or rarer spell means that your character(s) can learn the spell in the same way they learn other spells, provided they meet all prerequisites."

So if your Class requires you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like a Wizard or Magus, then you would still need to pay gold and succeed at your check.

If your Class doesn't require you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like most Spontaneous casters, then you just go about adding it to your repertoire as usual (which might require Retraining, or simply levelling up and swapping something out).

I applied my Esoteric Spellcaster Boon to a Cleric, which doesn't need to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, so I just started preparing it immediately.

Just to be completely clear, this includes Uncommon spells you get access to through a chronicle boon, correct?

i.e. scrolls


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:

A spell in your repertoire is clearly not a Skill Training or Feat.

I believe FLite was attributing it to a "selectable class feature," which it certainly is, when he proposed 28 days.

PFS might want to decide how long they want retraining a spell in a spell repertoire to take (7, 28, something in between). 28 days of Downtime is 1.3 levels worth of advancement, which means you can swap out a spell sooner than you can retrain it in PFS, assuming that you only want to swap one at your next level-up.

From the Errata, which does not seem to have made it into the second printing

Page 481: Retraining. It wasn't clear how long it took to retrain spells in a spell repertoire, but it should take just 1 week. Add ". Some, like changing a spell in your spell repertoire, take a week." to retraining class features.

Thank you so much!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Thomas Keller wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

From the FAQ: "Having access to an uncommon or rarer spell means that your character(s) can learn the spell in the same way they learn other spells, provided they meet all prerequisites."

So if your Class requires you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like a Wizard or Magus, then you would still need to pay gold and succeed at your check.

If your Class doesn't require you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like most Spontaneous casters, then you just go about adding it to your repertoire as usual (which might require Retraining, or simply levelling up and swapping something out).

I applied my Esoteric Spellcaster Boon to a Cleric, which doesn't need to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, so I just started preparing it immediately.

Just to be completely clear, this includes Uncommon spells you get access to through a chronicle boon, correct?

i.e. scrolls

That's what Online Guide Team Lead - JTT was explaining up thread.

Once you gain Access to something Uncommon, you treat it as Common for all purposes.

Including a scroll of an otherwise-Uncommon spell found on a Chronicle.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

From the FAQ: "Having access to an uncommon or rarer spell means that your character(s) can learn the spell in the same way they learn other spells, provided they meet all prerequisites."

So if your Class requires you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like a Wizard or Magus, then you would still need to pay gold and succeed at your check.

If your Class doesn't require you to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, like most Spontaneous casters, then you just go about adding it to your repertoire as usual (which might require Retraining, or simply levelling up and swapping something out).

I applied my Esoteric Spellcaster Boon to a Cleric, which doesn't need to use Learn a Spell for Common spells, so I just started preparing it immediately.

Just to be completely clear, this includes Uncommon spells you get access to through a chronicle boon, correct?

i.e. scrolls

That's what Online Guide Team Lead - JTT was explaining up thread.

Once you gain Access to something Uncommon, you treat it as Common for all purposes.

Including a scroll of an otherwise-Uncommon spell found on a Chronicle.

Okay. We were having a discussion on the OP discord, and folks seemed to think that spontaneous casters had to use Learn a Spell for Uncommon scrolls granted by a chronicle boon. Thanks for the help!


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

From the Errata, which does not seem to have made it into the second printing

Page 481: Retraining. It wasn't clear how long it took to retrain spells in a spell repertoire, but it should take just 1 week. Add ". Some, like changing a spell in your spell repertoire, take a week." to retraining class features.

That sentence is in my 2nd printing pdf.

CRB, p. 481 wrote:

CLASS FEATURES

You can change a class feature that required a choice, making a different choice instead. Some, like changing a spell in your spell repertoire, take a week. The GM will tell you how long it takes to retrain larger choices like a druid order or a wizard school—always at least a month.

It also shows up on Archives of Nethys.

Was it left out of the 2nd printing of the physical book?

Grand Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:

A spell in your repertoire is clearly not a Skill Training or Feat.

I believe FLite was attributing it to a "selectable class feature," which it certainly is, when he proposed 28 days.

PFS might want to decide how long they want retraining a spell in a spell repertoire to take (7, 28, something in between). 28 days of Downtime is 1.3 levels worth of advancement, which means you can swap out a spell sooner than you can retrain it in PFS, assuming that you only want to swap one at your next level-up.

From the Errata, which does not seem to have made it into the second printing

Page 481: Retraining. It wasn't clear how long it took to retrain spells in a spell repertoire, but it should take just 1 week. Add ". Some, like changing a spell in your spell repertoire, take a week." to retraining class features.

I hadn't seen that errata.

1/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Agent, Online—VTT

I think there's been some confusion in this question, specifically in the question

Quote:

Just to be completely clear, this includes Uncommon spells you get access to through a chronicle boon, correct?

i.e. scrolls

Because a boon (ACP purchased or granted by chronicle at no cost) that grants Access to a spell makes you treat the spell as Common. I dont see any rule that would say that Access to a scroll is Access to anything but the scroll, which would then require using Learn A Spell to either add the spell to your spells known (for a prepared caster) or to have Access to put it in your repertoire (as a spontaneous caster).


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:

Just to be completely clear, this includes Uncommon spells you get access to through a chronicle boon, correct?

i.e. scrolls

That's what Online Guide Team Lead - JTT was explaining up thread.

Once you gain Access to something Uncommon, you treat it as Common for all purposes.

Including a scroll of an otherwise-Uncommon spell found on a Chronicle.

So then this is incorrect, Hammerjack?

1/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Agent, Online—VTT

It isn't incorrect. Just incomplete, I think, for what you are asking. When you gain Access to something Uncommon, you treat that thing as Common. So in an example like JTT talked about, where a boon grants Access to a spell, you can go right ahead and prepare it, add it to your repertoire (via level up or retraining), etc.

When the Uncommon thing on a chronicle is a scroll, that means you treat that scroll as Common. There isn't any "once the scroll is Common, automatically treat the spell on it as Common and don't bother Learning the Spell" rule.

I think this thread has largely been answers to "what does Access to spell mean?" and not so much to "does Access to a scroll automatically mean Access to the spell with no other action?" which is a different question.

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

As a note I don't think "treat anything you have access to as common" is what the guide actually says.

Guide wrote:
Access: Players can access uncommon or rare options via access points built into the campaign. If you satisfy the access condition specified in that option, then that option is common for you. Pathfinder Society characters are enrolled members of the Pathfinder Society organization in the world of Golarion, so they gain access to all options requiring membership in the Pathfinder Society.

If you meet the listed access condition then it's common. Otherwise it's still uncommon, you just have access.

This is important for things like crafting where:

Guide wrote:

Crafting: Rules for crafting equipment appear on pages 244-245 of the Core Rulebook. Use DCs from Table 10–5 (Core Rulebook 504) with the following adjustments:

Common: None
Uncommon: Apply the hard modifier from Table 10-6 (Core Rulebook 504)
Rare: Apply the very hard modifier from table 10-6 (Core Rulebook 504)

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Or learning spells from a scroll rather than an AcP boon!

Quote:
Attempt a skill check for the skill corresponding to your tradition (DC determined by the GM, often close to the DC on Table 4–3). Uncommon or rare spells have higher DCs.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

HammerJack wrote:

It isn't incorrect. Just incomplete, I think, for what you are asking. When you gain Access to something Uncommon, you treat that thing as Common. So in an example like JTT talked about, where a boon grants Access to a spell, you can go right ahead and prepare it, add it to your repertoire (via level up or retraining), etc.

When the Uncommon thing on a chronicle is a scroll, that means you treat that scroll as Common. There isn't any "once the scroll is Common, automatically treat the spell on it as Common and don't bother Learning the Spell" rule.

This. I am 99% sure I know the answer. I am waiting to get that last 1% nailed down before I post definitively in my guide persona.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Except, elsewhere somewhere, when talking about Access to formulas for an Uncommon item that you gained Access to (thus making it Common), the answer was that even the formula would be Common, and you'd have Access to it.

So there'd have to be some really good reasoning why gaining Access to a scroll doesn't mean gaining Access to the spell on the scroll.

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

The process that I'd expect outside of PFS is this:

You find scroll of Protection (Uncommon, and the GM has left it Uncommon).
This doesn't let a Cleric prepare Protection.
This doesn't let a Cleric craft more scrolls of Protection.
This doesn't let a Cleric craft a wand of Protection.
You can cast it off the scroll when you need it, consuming the scroll.
Or you can try to Learn a Spell, which does not consume the scroll.
Once you Lear a Spell, you can do all of those things above.

So, if PFS is running the same process, then finding a scroll of an Uncommon spell on a Chronicle sheet goes through the same process (meaning you do need to Learn a Spell from the scroll).

Having access as though the scroll of X is Common isn't the same as treating X as though it is Common.

I think that's the last 1% that Jared is trying to pin down.

P.S. It's a distracting argument, but I'll play with it a moment anyways. If you find a katana and PFS lets you buy a formula for katanas, which is granting access to an Uncommon formula at the same time as granting access to the item and very different than spellcasting, you still need to put in cost (gold and Downtime) to craft more katanas. If finding a scroll (which probably has a Limit 1 right next to it), automatically treating it as though it is Common lets the spellcaster have infinite, free copies. Sure, Learn a Spell is faster and cheaper than crafting, but it's still technically work put in for the reward.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

This might be the answer I'm remembering:

Access to the spell means your character treats it as common for *all* purposes. Including buying and crafting wands and scrolls.

The only exception would be if the access came with a limited number. (A chronicle with "scroll of detect alignment, limit 4" for example does not give you access to the spell detect alignment. It *only* allows you to purchase 4 scrolls of it.)

The second section of this quote especially seems to imply that if there isn't a limit on the number of scrolls, the spell itself is also treated as Common.

4/5 ***

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Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:
HammerJack wrote:

It isn't incorrect. Just incomplete, I think, for what you are asking. When you gain Access to something Uncommon, you treat that thing as Common. So in an example like JTT talked about, where a boon grants Access to a spell, you can go right ahead and prepare it, add it to your repertoire (via level up or retraining), etc.

When the Uncommon thing on a chronicle is a scroll, that means you treat that scroll as Common. There isn't any "once the scroll is Common, automatically treat the spell on it as Common and don't bother Learning the Spell" rule.

This. I am 99% sure I know the answer. I am waiting to get that last 1% nailed down before I post definitively in my guide persona.

I have the answer to this now, working on making sure the language is correct, then I will post it.

4/5 ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.

So, now that everything is nailed down and worked out, I wanted to come back and follow up on this.

Due to the strange interactions making things common had with various components of the system, PFS is going back to rarities never changing.

This means that if you have access to a scroll of an uncommon spell, the spell is still uncommon. If you have access to the scroll *and* possess the scroll, you can learn the spell from the scroll. After you have done so, you can prepare and cast the spell. (Though the spell itself remains uncommon.)

Scarab Sages 4/5

I'm kind of afraid to ask, but how does this affect things like the granted access to weapons in the FAQ? Someone from Tian-Xia still has access to Katana, but it's no longer Common for them? Am I interpreting that correctly? I think there are a few corner cases where that might matter (like Tengu from Brevoy getting proficiency with the Aldori Dueling Sword from Tengu Weapon Familiarity).

4/5 ***

Ferious Thune wrote:
I'm kind of afraid to ask, but how does this affect things like the granted access to weapons in the FAQ? Someone from Tian-Xia still has access to Katana, but it's no longer Common for them? Am I interpreting that correctly? I think there are a few corner cases where that might matter (like Tengu from Brevoy getting proficiency with the Aldori Dueling Sword from Tengu Weapon Familiarity).

Not specifically relevant to this thread, so you might want to bring it over to the May update thread where it will be more visible.

Tengu from the Broken Lands and Aldori Dueling Sword / Tengu Weapon Familiarity was *specifically* one of the examples I asked about when ironing out the language.

The answer was that no, having *access* to the sword (or any other option) does not make it common, unless a rule in a book says otherwise.

For an example of when access *would* make something common, see the "Hook Sword"

"Access If the player character come from a region in Tian Xia, this weapon is common"

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

My (personal) understanding is that the Tengu / Aldori Dueling Sword / Tengu Weapon Familiarity was one of the 'Strange (and unintended) interactions' that Alex mentioned in the blog announcing this.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Got it. Thanks.

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