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So, we've had plenty of discussion on older classes that people want to see refurbished and rebuilt for PF2 in one way or another, and that's great, but it feels like we've mostly mined out thethoughts on those branches for the moment. We can let it lie fallow for a while, then churn up the soil again, once it's recovered. Instead, this thread invites you to come up with entirely new ideas for classes that we *haven't* seen all that heavily in PF1 or the mroe recent D&D editions. Give us a bit of lore, give us a bit of crunch, maybe give feedback and suggestions on other people's ideas. Let's throw some more creativity in the pot and see if we can cook up something that the devs might find a few bits of inspiration from.
...and yes, I'm quite sure that this topic has been tossed about before... but that doesn't mean that we can't trot it out for another go-round again.
For me, I present the Host. For lore, this is where you find your living hive ninja, your bearer of strange eldritch grafts, or the spirit-haunted waif who survives on the strength of the burdens they bear. First and foremost, they are a host to a multitude of strange entities (physical or spiritual) that depend on them for survival, shelter, sustenance, or whatever. In return, those symbiotes provide what assistance they may.
It is distinct from the Summoner, first, in the lack of raw physicality - the symbiotes give abilities, but they will not appear and fight for you, or stand between you and the foe. Second, it is distinct in term of raw numbers. The Summoner has a single ally of great power, into which they pour much of their build budget. The host has a number of symbiotes, each individually providing a much smaller degree of assistance.
It is distinct from the Medium... well, we're not entirely clear on what the medium *is* yet, so this is not entirely clear, but to me is is distinct first in that it's not just spirits - available symbiotes are often quite a lot more tangible, and even when they *are* spirits, they're more likely to act directly on the outside world in some fashion than to channel into their host's mind. Second, for the Host, this pretty much is their whole deal (and thus the vast majority of their build budget). They don't have spellcasting or weapon skills or other special abilities - the things their symbiotes give them are the thigns they have (plus standard ancestry/skill/etc stuff).
Crunch-wise... either light or medium armor. Everything they've got rolls off of their Class DC. Possibly have an unarmed proficiency that tracks up to martial on the standard progression if that's cutting it back too far, but certainly nothing past simple weapons.
Your starter symbiotes are basically your class paths. Each of them gives you a standard action that you can use repeatedly in combat (that uses either unarmed proficiency or class DC) plus a few other handy effects. One might give you a reaching tentacle lash, while another allowed you to assault your enemies with a ravenous swarm of biting insects. It's possible to get more than one symbiote, of course, by spending class feats, but each symbiote is worth well more than one feat, which means that you're spending two or three feats to get the full package. Then you have levels where you pick one to progress into a more powerful form and gain further benefits... and you can spend further feats to progress your other symbiotes as well, if you like. Alternately, if you want to really focus in on one kind, there would be further feats that would let you customize and enhance them beyond the standard progression.
In the end, you wind up with someone who has a moderate number of useful powers, most of which are repeatable, who's had the opportunity to customize fairly heavily in design, but who doesn't really any ability to change their loadout day-to-day. You'll generally have a few more options in any given round than the average martial, but notably less than pretty much any caster.
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Some sort of Warlord, Tactician, whatever you want to call it. I just want a "martial" class that can move my allies around the battlefield and give them extra attacks.
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Similar to Salamileg, I would love to see a martial commander-style character. It would be nice to see it, as the archetypes I've seen in PF2 so far just don't quite cut it for me.
I'd also like to see a heavy armor specialist of sorts in PF2 that's not the Champion, though this could be something as simple as a class archetype for the fighter that swaps legendary weapon proficiency for legendary armor proficiency. *makes a note to look at doing that a little later in the day*
Last is something I've wanted since 3.5, and every attempt at it has been a bit too narrowly themed, an arcane knight of sorts. The hexblade and duskblade came close, but they didn't quite fit what I would like. In PF2e, it'd probably be something along the lines of the champion, but with arcane-themed focus spells and abilities rather than divine. Magus doesn't fit what I'm thinking of at all because of its spell slots.
I've got some others in mind, but they're more setting specific (my setting, to be precise), so I'm not bothering to mention them.
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A dedicated body-warping class, that covers the thematic territory occupied by the shifter, the metamorph alchemist, the old AD&D psychometabolist. Not only can you transform into various animals, you're also able to turn your body to iron, catch on fire, stretch your arms real long, etc.
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Some sort of Warlord, Tactician, whatever you want to call it. I just want a "martial" class that can move my allies around the battlefield and give them extra attacks.Seems like the marshal archetype ( eventually, on a liberator champ, which would allow you to move your party even more ).
Marshal is a good example of what I want, and I've played a Liberator Marshal, but by virtue of being an archetype it's always going to be my character's side thing. My characte will always have to swing a sword or cast cast spell in order to be effective. Plus the abilities I'd want aren't available at low levels (level 8 at the earliest, and it doesn't have great action economy).
I figure if Monk and Martial Artist can both exist, so can Tactician and Marshal.
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Adding my voice to the chorus of those begging for something like a 4e Warlord - which, I should say, had the player’s choice of INT, CHA, or WIS as a primary stat. Add in some class paths and feats to support one that feels more like a Starfinder Envoy and I’m over the moon.
I’ll also cheat a little and say I’d love to get Solarians in PF2 in some official format.
Designer
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Adding my voice to the chorus of those begging for something like a 4e Warlord - which, I should say, had the player’s choice of INT, CHA, or WIS as a primary stat. Add in some class paths and feats to support one that feels more like a Starfinder Envoy and I’m over the moon.
It's been quite awhile since I've looked it over, but if you really want something right now, you might check out the Battle Lord class I wrote for Amora Games. It does most of the things folks are asking for.
A dedicated body-warping class, that covers the thematic territory occupied by the shifter, the metamorph alchemist, the old AD&D psychometabolist. Not only can you transform into various animals, you're also able to turn your body to iron, catch on fire, stretch your arms real long, etc.
The only place I disagree with you there is that I want that to be more than one class, and I want all of them.
Adding my voice to the chorus of those begging for something like a 4e Warlord - which, I should say, had the player’s choice of INT, CHA, or WIS as a primary stat. Add in some class paths and feats to support one that feels more like a Starfinder Envoy and I’m over the moon.
I’ll also cheat a little and say I’d love to get Solarians in PF2 in some official format.
Realistically, Strength was the primary stat even then... for most builds.
That said, the lazylord was absolutely a thing, it was hilarious, and I'd love to see its return. In the right party, I'd be interested in playing one. My one concern is that I'm not sure exactly how you'd fit such a thing into PF2's tight balancing. The power of warlords in general and lazylords in particular varied *wildly* depending on the builds of their fellow party members, and I don't see how you could get away from that without tearing the heart out of the idea.
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I shall add to the outcry of people wanted to see a Warlord class.
I said this in another thread, but a Scientist that deals with the facets of science that the Alchemist (chemistry, biology, medicine) and Inventor (engineering, technology) don't deal with. Even the Investigator covers things like sociology, psychology, law, and information sciences to an extent. In my head, a Scientist could include things like physics, geology, astrology/cosmology, archeology, as well as psuedosciences and, what I'm choosing to call, arcanology, or the study of magic. Could be an interesting place to fit things like the relation between alchemy and magic, or science and magic in general, on top of more realist sciences, with a fantasy flair to them.
Plus, I'd be lying if I said I really wanted to start and adventure by saying "An Alchemist, Investigator, Inventor, and Scientis walk into a bar."
Two others I'll put out there, simply because I believe it's been stated by Paizo that they won't be doing them: Samurai and Ninja. My ideas for them are basically a warrior who focuses heavily on weapon techniques, maybe with an emphasis on stances (i.e. Iaijutsu). The get the most out of their build by utilizing various combat attacks with varying effects. Ninjas I'd like to basically be a focus-spell focused stealth/skill class, translating the idea of Ninjutsu into the focus spells, and maybe even tagging on wave casting. In order to facilitate this, they would have access to abilities and actions that allow them to regain/refocus their points more often than any other class (basically during combat), allowing them to shoot out their focus spells with some relative frequency.
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I’ll be honest: to me, a Samurai is just a Fighter from Japan, and a Ninja is just a Rogue from Japan. The specificity of the flavor feels prohibitive - it’s going to feel silly if a character brings me a Ninja from Taldor, or Qadira, or anywhere that isn’t a specific variety of Fantasy Southeast Asia - and I don’t know that our current options are all that lacking.
I’d welcome more Stances across the board, and I think some sneaky Focus Spells for Monk, Rogue, or a Ninja Archetype would be fun, but I don’t personally think they have enough meat on their bones for full classes.
That's fair enough. Mind you, Avistan in Golarion is canonicaly home to a few Ninja clans. Couldn't tell you there names off the too of my head, but they are there. Not sure about examples of Samurai. But I feel like that's easily manageable with with the Rarity system. But that's just me.
They could easily be Class Archetypes though. My desire to see them as full classes is simply my desire to see them get continued support down the line. The expanded options we know we are getting in Knights of Lastwall is already a good sign, so I'd be fine with Class Archetypes at this point honestly.
I still hope for a class which works around the rune of shifting:
- Attack patterns which shift the weapon's form
- Improved shifting form through feats ( allowing ranged weapons, making it a free action, damage enhancing upon shifting, etc... )
- Drawbacks if the weapon didn't shift on the current round ( forcing the character to always shift the weapon ).
That... sounds like more of an archetype? Among other things, it's hard to have a character at level 1 that hard-requires a specific level 6 rune.
As for ninja... to me, ninja were never of the "I spam a bunch of spells" type. The more magical ninja were the sneaky through-the-shadows kind who were able to appear in places that you thought were entirely safe. The less magical version were just really good at disguise and deep-cover spying with the occasional willingness to use gunpowder. Both of those seem like you could handle them pretty well with a rogue and maybe investment in the right archetypes. Possibly consider fetchling ancestry?
If you want a class that just spams a bunch of focus spells all the time, though... well, try figuring out what that would be as its own thing. Note that it won't necessarily be an easy sell, given how they reacted to the idea with the psychic.
My Ninja inspiration was taken less from the traditional idea of them, and more from sources like Naruto and Nabari no Ou, that depict Ninja as being overtly magical through Ninjutsu. Ninja allegedly often exaggerated their magical abilities as well to spur fear and awe. So I don't see it as a stretch that a fantasy game has them as having magical capabilities.
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Almost forgot, I would like a Warlock Class, as a sort of anti-mage, magic stealing spellcaster whose power (and tradition?) is based on the type of energy or magic they steal/siphon, with a heavy emphasis on counterspelling. Probably sounds odd, but I kind of got the idea from characters (or rather, singular) Shang Tsung. I actually plan on trying to build the idea myself, with their story hook basically being:
"Magic exists all around you and is there for the taking. While Wizards harness magic through study, Sorcerers are born of it, and Clerics and Witches channel the might of powerful patrons and deities, you seize it as your own; siphoning it from the very world around you. You absorb the very spark of magic from its source, whatever that may be, and use it to fuel your own eldritch might. Magic exists to be utilized and you shall make it yours."
A few of my ideas for the Siphon Magic ability are "generic magic" from spells and items, elements, souls, or the very faith of a deities follower. It could easily be a multi-tradition spellcaster, with each source determining their tradition. Could easily be just Occult maybe. Honestly, idk how they do it. I just want to be able to play a Shang Tsung expy that speaks magical incantations as he pulls someone's soul out to fuel their magic. Lol
I think some sort of class that takes from monsters, either after slaying or bargaining. Maybe grafts are an option for taking a physical attack or to be able to siphon the spells or magical abilities from them.
Probably have to be based on Monster type rather than individual monsters. I think it fits the wow Demonhunter and Warlock type trope of monstrous abilities as a way to power. Probably better archetype
Not much of a designer so I'd probably just take from Starfinder.
Could make a Solarion more related to positive/negative energy perhaps? Maybe Ether and Shadow? Could fulfill the Gloomblade theme but maybe with feats or paths that tie to the First World and Shadow Plane
I love the Nanocyte, maybe nanites as astral energy or shadowstuff or something
There was some discussion of a Diplomancer type class awhile back that solves combat with talking but I think in the end that's just an Envoy of some sort. Still sounds like an interesting role play experience but might be too niche and other skill heavy classes can probably do this already
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I think some sort of class that takes from monsters, either after slaying or bargaining. Maybe grafts are an option for taking a physical attack or to be able to siphon the spells or magical abilities from them.
Oh, this reminds me of a class idea that would actually be very new to Pathfinder! I use the name 'Blue Mage' as the most recognisable manifestation, but there are actually a number of ways it might be done.
For those not familiar with the Final Fantasy mage archetypes, Blue Mages tend to be a very unique type of caster who do not use traditional spells, but rather 'learn' monster abilities--usually by being hit with that ability--which they can cast using their MP. These abilities range from the humble Goblin Punch to things like dragonbreath and petrifying gaze attacks.
Naturally a 1:1 adaptation of that concept would be... impossible to write, much less balance, given it would need an ever-expanding list of 'acceptable' abilities to copy and be subject to the whims of fate and encounter design. Nevertheless, I think the core of the concept is still valuable; a character class which attempts to emulate the power of monsters. This core is actually already represented, in a somewhat distant fashion, on Golarion with such things as the Paaridars (for a more evil-coded example) and the Flesheater Barbarian archetype (or as I like to call them, Kirby).
I don't have a clear idea how they would be designed, mechanically, but I see the possibility for a number of class paths based on how you seek to connect with and 'understand' these monsters--whether you're studying them as a full-contact zoologist, communing with their spirits, or physically consuming a bite of their flesh.
To avoid inevitable issues, I imagine the Copycat by default gets a suite of abilities that are based on the creature type of the monster they emulate (like Rude above suggested--an Aberration gains you certain alien abilities while Fiends other, and Beasts other. Possibly other traits as well; the Fire trait of a Red Dragon or Fire Elemental could both just as easily grant fire resistance). Also, while I describe characters who gain abilities after defeating or fighting, I expect that they should be able to simply target a monster at the start of a fight to activate their base powers, then partake of the defeated foe in some way to fuel more intense abilities later.
Provided the core abilities don't vary too much by monster (you might only need swim speed while dealing with swimming monsters, but if you can't ever have consistent attacks because the abilities you want are gated behind monsters you don't often fight, that would be a design flaw). Also, I imagine as per the Blue Mage, once you've learned some abilities, you always have access to them. For example, perhaps a feat which grants you the ability to cast Paralyze 1/day, which upgrades into Flesh to Stone at high levels, after the first time you experience a monster's petrification attack for the first time, etc.
Owing to the association with Barbarians and Monks in Golarion, and the FF Blue Mage's need to be directly subjected to monster attacks, I would see them primarily as more martially-inclined characters, with probably focus spells to make up for more magical abilities they can copy. Perhaps they have limited casting, such as a wave-caster, so that they might copy the innate spell abilities of enemy monsters, but I see spell-copying as too niche to be anything more than an opportunistic snipe.
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Had an idea... or saw it somewhere... for a stance-focused martial that actively manages stances as a combat mechanic.
Like Monks have a lot of stances and Fighters have a few, but by and large stances right now are something most characters fire and forget (with a few exceptions based on specific scenarios). A class that gets several stances with benefits aimed less at being a primary combat enhancer and more being something you actively consider changing on the fly with regularity.
I think something like that would be difficult to do with an existing class because you'd need to get them multiple stances early on and mechanics to support it.
I’ll be honest: to me, a Samurai is just a Fighter from Japan, and a Ninja is just a Rogue from Japan. The specificity of the flavor feels prohibitive - it’s going to feel silly if a character brings me a Ninja from Taldor, or Qadira, or anywhere that isn’t a specific variety of Fantasy Southeast Asia - and I don’t know that our current options are all that lacking.
I totally get what you mean and it makes sense.
But I also think there's some mechanical flavor that's being untapped in these ideas.
... It's a little tricky to really quantify for me because you might be able to solve them by adding more options to a class, but you'd need a lot of options to do it and so far Paizo hasn't seemed very interested in fleshing out existing classes since the APG. So I'm not sure how likely that actually is.
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Had an idea... or saw it somewhere... for a stance-focused martial that actively manages stances as a combat mechanic.
Like Monks have a lot of stances and Fighters have a few, but by and large stances right now are something most characters fire and forget (with a few exceptions based on specific scenarios). A class that gets several stances with benefits aimed less at being a primary combat enhancer and more being something you actively consider changing on the fly with regularity.
I think something like that would be difficult to do with an existing class because you'd need to get them multiple stances early on and mechanics to support it.
I would play the hell out of this class, one that actually had some reason to swap between Stances throughout a fight as circumstances demand. My first thought is something like a Solarian or 1e’s third-party psionic Aegis, where you have some kind of construct that you might manipulate between different weapon and defensive shapes. You could also use this approach for a 2e Medium, representing different spirits one calls upon for different needs.
While I doubt Stances are the mechanic for it, I’d adore a 2e Shifter with that kind of combat fluidity, too.
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For those looking for the "hunt a monster and take its parts/power" deal, Battlezoo Bestiary has the Monster Mage and Vestige Hunter archetypes. Haven't had a chance to play with either of them yet but they look neat.
They are available in Pathbuilder for those who are interested in checking them out.
Stances are my vision for Samurai. As warriors who are often depicted as being more concerned with technique and discipline, it seemed like a natural fit. Granted, I do understand the reluctance to utilize character concepts based on other cultures as full classes, I'd argue that Samurai and Ninja are so prevalent in media that it doesn't seem that odd. No stranger than monastic adherants who are skilled in martial arts, which has way stringer ties to Eastern cultures than Western ones. That is, however, my opinion, and I realize Samurai is very specifically from Japan. The challenge I suppose would be giving them a name that embodies the concept broadly and applies to multiple cultures if needed. Knight doesn't really work imo, since knighthood was a European thing. Final Fantasy I believe referred to them as Myrmidons are one point, but that has heavy Greek ties. Warlord kind of works, but I personally prefer that as the title of the tactitian concept. Battlemaster maybe? Idk. I have a whole list of terms utilized in various media and stories as titles for classes, and none of them really jump out to me.
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I’ll be honest: to me, a Samurai is just a Fighter from Japan, and a Ninja is just a Rogue from Japan. The specificity of the flavor feels prohibitive - it’s going to feel silly if a character brings me a Ninja from Taldor, or Qadira, or anywhere that isn’t a specific variety of Fantasy Southeast Asia - and I don’t know that our current options are all that lacking.
I’d welcome more Stances across the board, and I think some sneaky Focus Spells for Monk, Rogue, or a Ninja Archetype would be fun, but I don’t personally think they have enough meat on their bones for full classes.
I agree with the sentiment, except the rogue's bespoke weapon list makes using regional weapons a pain. (But I'd rather they just errata the rogue weapon proficiencies than make a new class.)
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A type of explicit and defined Anti-Magic or Magic Absorption Martial Class that can suppress magical effects that target them, the area they occupy, and perhaps even absorb power by draining magical auras around them. Being able to learn from, twist, steal, and use the magic from other beings to add to their own power is the thrust of the idea.
I'm not talking about damage resistance or situational bonuses against those things but instead something extremely baseline and fundamentally unique to the Class and unlike the various Superstitious or other Spell/Magic resistant options that are available.
I'm not quite talking about things like the Blue Mage from FF but that is actually a fairly good place to start in terms of what I was thinking for the concept.
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For those looking for the "hunt a monster and take its parts/power" deal, Battlezoo Bestiary has the Monster Mage and Vestige Hunter archetypes. Haven't had a chance to play with either of them yet but they look neat.
They are available in Pathbuilder for those who are interested in checking them out.
Yep I thought the Battlezoo did great with with these archetypes, especially the Monster Mage but I wondered what more could be added to create an entire class. My though was sort of a combination of the theme of LO Monsters of Myths Pact Bound Initiate for a class which either takes from or makes bargains with monsters to get their abilities.
A shifter would probably be similar but would probably wind up very much like Starfinders Evolutionist
A type of explicit and defined Anti-Magic or Magic Absorption Martial Class that can suppress magical effects that target them, the area they occupy, and perhaps even absorb power by draining magical auras around them. Being able to learn from, twist, steal, and use the magic from other beings to add to their own power is the thrust of the idea.
I'm not talking about damage resistance or situational bonuses against those things but instead something extremely baseline and fundamentally unique to the Class and unlike the various Superstitious or other Spell/Magic resistant options that are available.
I'm not quite talking about things like the Blue Mage from FF but that is actually a fairly good place to start in terms of what I was thinking for the concept.
That also sounds like an archetype to me. Don't get me wrong. I think it would be a great archetype... but it sounds more like a side gig than like your main deal. Also, I can totally imagine fighter, monk, rogue, and ranger versions of that archetype. Would require that you not be able to cast spells, and would cut you off from developing the ability to cast spells in the future. I can dig it.
On the subject of a Blue Mage-esque class, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Paizo is introducing a type of Feat that will allow players to gain monster-esque abilities by surviving encounters with those creatures or their abilities. I can't recall which book this is meant to show up in (was it Dark Archieves?), but I believe one example given was something like surviving a petrification effect from something like a Medusa or Basilisk and gaining resistance to being petrified in the future. I could be wrong, but I distinctly remember something like this being talked about. That might be a good place to start with some ideas. Seems like Paizo is likely going to leave them largely open to everyone, but it would be an interesting concept to build something around.
On the subject of a Blue Mage-esque class, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Paizo is introducing a type of Feat that will allow players to gain monster-esque abilities by surviving encounters with those creatures or their abilities. I can't recall which book this is meant to show up in (was it Dark Archieves?), but I believe one example given was something like surviving a petrification effect from something like a Medusa or Basilisk and gaining resistance to being petrified in the future. I could be wrong, but I distinctly remember something like this being talked about. That might be a good place to start with some ideas. Seems like Paizo is likely going to leave them largely open to everyone, but it would be an interesting concept to build something around.
Yes, it was mentioned, also with the possibility of them being story awards (which means they might come at two levels, basic reward + feat option built on top of that). I think the Paizo-ian had said it was tough finessing their power levels.
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I’ll be honest: to me, a Samurai is just a Fighter from Japan, and a Ninja is just a Rogue from Japan. The specificity of the flavor feels prohibitive - it’s going to feel silly if a character brings me a Ninja from Taldor, or Qadira, or anywhere that isn’t a specific variety of Fantasy Southeast Asia - and I don’t know that our current options are all that lacking.
I’d welcome more Stances across the board, and I think some sneaky Focus Spells for Monk, Rogue, or a Ninja Archetype would be fun, but I don’t personally think they have enough meat on their bones for full classes.
Although I do to some extent agree on Samurai (though I'd argue Champion and fighter are both close but not quite there for me personally), I think Ninja would be really cool as a Wis racket with a focus pool with some cool ninja powers. The 3.5 ninja has a super special place in my heart (first really heartbreaking character death for me) and the PF1 ninja was my rogue replacement until unchained.
A ki pool rogue seems so easy to do as a Rogue that it'd be a shame not to see one IMO.
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We do have the "mounted warrior" part of the cavalier as an archetype, but we could stand to have the "member of an order" part of the class replicated elsewhere. The samurai is probably just a version of that.
They are designed to be story rewards in a sense, yes. But the right GM may allow a player the opportunity to utilize them as standard options to facilitate their characters concept.
As a side, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the developer behind the Shifter class state that they have every intention of bringing it forward in 2e? Or am I thinking of a different class? If so, a 2e Shifter has all the makings of a Blue Mage-esque class. Paizo has proven at nearly every turn its is more than capable of expanding and retooling the classes from 1e to be incredibly fresh takes. I can totally see a 2e Shifter fitting the idea, expanding its options beyond those of just nature or primal based options. Maybe allow it to choose from various creature types, with Feats and abilities tied to each; could make it versatile by capping it say 3 options that they can freely mix and match.
Also as a side, this is some light speculation/possible light confirmation, but I noticed in Lost Mammoth Valley:
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Well, I would like yet another spontaneous occult caster since I feel like we have not explored the conc... no, i want the warlord. Give us the warlord please <3
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Hoping necrografts show up in Book of the Dead but maybe we'll see some sort of alchemy or crafting book that has them. I think last time they were introduced in the Black Market 1e book
The Evolutionist seems like an interesting interpretation of the Shifter, hoping something similar winds up in PF2, seems really cool.
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Something that I'd *like* to see but am almost certain I never will is the old 3.x transformational class concept, but as full classes rather than archetypes. Like, oozemorph - you're slowly becoming more and more of an ooze, but it's a full-on class (probably martial). Dragon Disciple - you're slowly becoming more and more dragon, but it's a full class (probably a wave caster). Give me some sort of full-class aberrant thing that would let me sink deep into the weird and grappling people with enormously long tentacles while their minds shatter under the exposure and whatnot.
Basically, the archetypes I've seen of that kind aren't all that satisfying. They're sort of there, and they give you enough that you can justify asserting that this is a real thing that's happening to your character with meaningful effects, but it feels like it actually makes the character less cool rather than more cool. Like, you could be spending those class feats on getting the really cool stuff out of your class, but instead you're spending them on this archetype, and the archetype has to spend its entire available budget just making the idea work at all, and doesn't have any left to spare on giving you the wacky cool stuff on top of it.
Admittedly, the fact that I find 1/day powers uninspiring probably doesn't help with this.
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On a more crunch level... I'd really like to see more a la carte that isn't tied directly to spell slots, and isn't just the feats everyone else gets. The feat system is great! Don't get me wrong. I just want *more*. I want to have a list of things to pull from that I get to keep going back to as I progress.
Hm.
Honestly, the best way to handle this from a PF2 standpoint would be something where you get your standard set of class feats, and then at some levels you get extra class feats that can only be of certain types. Like, a summoner version would be if you could somehow cash in your spell slots for additional class feats at various levels, but those class feats had to be spent on evolution feats - something like that. We already have things like the fighter with combat flexibility, and the Construct Eidolon, so the idea of a class that has "a few more feats" as part of its budget isn't entirely alien. I guess I just want someone who gets more of their budget in that, and also has a somewhat larger pile of feats to choose from (so to fit the extra feats to choose with) and, ideally, has feats that lean a bit towards the creepy/weird side of the force, as that's what I'm into personally.
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I'm also of the opinion that the Samurai and Ninja don't have enough mechanical meat on their bones for standalone classes, and are replicated easily enough with flavor more so than mechanics.
The Ninja easily fits as a racket for the Rogue, they're sneaky spies and assassins that fight through subterfuge and tricks instead of head-on, you don't get any roguier than that, designing a racket around ki-based focus spells to simulate some classical ninjutsu moves with smoke bombs, running over water/up walls and substitution techniques gets them very close to the mark with minimal adjustment, if any (also, just let Rogues in general have martial weapons like someone mentioned above, the Investigator has it and it's far from gamebreaking).
The kicker about the Samurai is because a lot of what one assigns to them in a TTRG environment is not really... unique? At least not so much for a whole class, a lot of their tropes are close to the western equivalent of the Knight (Bravery, masters of combat in and out of horseback, retainers, followers of an alleged honor code), so much so that the 1e version of them is rolled into the Cavalier, and even that wider grouping was relegated to an archetype in 2e. On the mechanical implementation side of things it gets even dicier, temp hp? Not a very exciting mechanic; standing after an attack? Fine i guess, more of a once-a-day trick than anythting, still not a very solid foundation to build a class over; Iaijutsu? Reductive enough to be a feat chain, and too restricting to be the main option for the entire class. Even if we dwelve deep into the warrior poet or sword saint territory I still don't see anything that's outside the reach of an appropriate Fighter or Monk Class Archetype.
Since the topic of the thread is new classes, I'm also on the "Let's expand on what we have/finish porting the fan favorites before expanding" camp; as long as the Cleric still has 2 doctrines and classes from the APG/SoM/GnG are mostly restricted in feat support to their original publication we're leaving a lot of design space behind chasing classes that might be better explored after we've developped more of the earlier classes' potential.
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Hoping necrografts show up in Book of the Dead but maybe we'll see some sort of alchemy or crafting book that has them. I think last time they were introduced in the Black Market 1e book
The Evolutionist seems like an interesting interpretation of the Shifter, hoping something similar winds up in PF2, seems really cool.
I'm not sure how much the ideas in this post contributed to the current Starfinder class, but a little bit before Evolutionist was announced for Starfinder, Michael Sayre posted this in a previous thread about new 2e classes people would like to see.
The classes I'd most like to see in the future (this is absolutely not a hint or teaser, btw, just the things I personally think would be super cool) :
1) A shaman class. I wouldn't pick up really anything from PF1, though. I'd want to start ground up pulling from real-world lore with an emphasis on the shaman's role as a spirit-speaker in many different real world cultures.
2) An envoy/heir/herald class focused around party coordination and deep social abilities, the kind of class for someone who wants to be defined by charisma and intellect without needing magic and with a very different focus than the investigator.
3) An evolution themed class akin to the shifter but without the heavy wilderness themes. Something with a combination of "constant" evolutions (natural attacks, shield-like carapace sheaths, limbs reshaped to be more efficient at certain tasks, etc.) and reaction-based focus powers, like responding to failing a save against a fireball by instantly evolving fire-resistant skin or changing your unarmed attack from a slashing weapon to a piercing weapon when a foe resists your claws.
4) Runeknight. Like a cross between a wizard and a champion with magus/summoner prepared slots, and all of your prepared spells are effects tied to your gear. Glyph up your equipment during your prep each day for special effects, gain special abilities tied to gear you have unexpended glyphs etched on. Maybe even some cool combo stuff, like dealing 1 point of fire with your sword as long as you have a fireball spell etched on it, then getting e.g. 3 rounds of free flaming rune after casting the fireball. Could probably also do this with a magus class archetype, maybe, but I think there's enough room there to justify a full class's worth of support.
Suffice it to say, I'd love to see all of these ideas make it to 2e. I'd also be interested in seeing something like a magical counterpart to Inventor, like an arcane smith or tinker, that functions like a martial but with an emphasis on also utilizing magical gadgetry. Probably borrow a lot from D&D's Artificer, by imbuing mundane objects with spells that can be activated on command, but without personal spellcasting ability. I'm definitely picturing Link from Legend of Zelda when I'm imagining this class.
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Hoping necrografts show up in Book of the Dead but maybe we'll see some sort of alchemy or crafting book that has them. I think last time they were introduced in the Black Market 1e book
The Evolutionist seems like an interesting interpretation of the Shifter, hoping something similar winds up in PF2, seems really cool.
I'm not sure how much the ideas in this post contributed to the current Starfinder class, but a little bit before Evolutionist was announced for Starfinder, Michael Sayre posted this in a previous thread about new 2e classes people would like to see.
** spoiler omitted **...
Yeah, I would love all of these.
‘Herald’ is an inspired name for the Warlord/Envoy.
Something that I'd *like* to see but am almost certain I never will is the old 3.x transformational class concept, but as full classes rather than archetypes. Like, oozemorph - you're slowly becoming more and more of an ooze, but it's a full-on class (probably martial). Dragon Disciple - you're slowly becoming more and more dragon, but it's a full class (probably a wave caster). Give me some sort of full-class aberrant thing that would let me sink deep into the weird and grappling people with enormously long tentacles while their minds shatter under the exposure and whatnot....
This reminds me of a concept for a so-called 'flesh witch' I had which doesn't slot neatly into any class published. Somebody who, through pacts with eldritch beings has gained the power to shift their body to grow tentacles and maws with which to attack, or spawn eyes for probably some mechanical reason but I just want the aesthetics. Power set could extend to manipulating and mutating others' flesh to heal wounds or cause debilitation with mild body horror.
Currently I think the best way to achieve this would be a true Synthesist Summoner, but I don't really need the Occult spells. Shifter could also pick it up, if it doesn't focus so much on animal forms so much. Don't know if it could be a class on its own, I only have the one character concept.
Hoping necrografts show up in Book of the Dead but maybe we'll see some sort of alchemy or crafting book that has them. I think last time they were introduced in the Black Market 1e book
The Evolutionist seems like an interesting interpretation of the Shifter, hoping something similar winds up in PF2, seems really cool.
I'm not sure how much the ideas in this post contributed to the current Starfinder class, but a little bit before Evolutionist was announced for Starfinder, Michael Sayre posted this in a previous thread about new 2e classes people would like to see.
** spoiler omitted **...
lol I wonder if he knew about evolutionist. That third class he posted, even the examples of what it can do, is almost 100% what the class is about and things it can do.
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lol I wonder if he knew about evolutionist. That third class he posted, even the examples of what it can do, is almost 100% what the class is about and things it can do.Hoping necrografts show up in Book of the Dead but maybe we'll see some sort of alchemy or crafting book that has them. I think last time they were introduced in the Black Market 1e book
The Evolutionist seems like an interesting interpretation of the Shifter, hoping something similar winds up in PF2, seems really cool.
I'm not sure how much the ideas in this post contributed to the current Starfinder class, but a little bit before Evolutionist was announced for Starfinder, Michael Sayre posted this in a previous thread about new 2e classes people would like to see.
** spoiler omitted **...
Legitimately a coincidence and something I probably wouldn't have said publicly had I realized another department was about to drop it, lol!
One of the realities of a new edition, or an edition with very measured growth like Starfinder, is asking "What kind of concepts are actually 1pp class material? What is something that a large enough group of people want to see in the game, that you don't have a clear path to currently?"
It's not surprising that my very talented peers (some of whom I worked closely with for a couple years when I was doing PFS development) would identify the same niches I did. SRM used to say that "fantasy is a language" and it's true; there's a lot of stuff that just exists in the zeitgeist and it's inevitable that people with shared training and experiences will come to similar conclusions.
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lol I wonder if he knew about evolutionist. That third class he posted, even the examples of what it can do, is almost 100% what the class is about and things it can do.Hoping necrografts show up in Book of the Dead but maybe we'll see some sort of alchemy or crafting book that has them. I think last time they were introduced in the Black Market 1e book
The Evolutionist seems like an interesting interpretation of the Shifter, hoping something similar winds up in PF2, seems really cool.
I'm not sure how much the ideas in this post contributed to the current Starfinder class, but a little bit before Evolutionist was announced for Starfinder, Michael Sayre posted this in a previous thread about new 2e classes people would like to see.
** spoiler omitted **...
Legitimately a coincidence and something I probably wouldn't have said publicly had I realized another department was about to drop it, lol!
One of the realities of a new edition, or an edition with very measured growth like Starfinder, is asking "What kind of concepts are actually 1pp class material? What is something that a large enough group of people want to see in the game, that you don't have a clear path to currently?"
It's not surprising that my very talented peers (some of whom I worked closely with for a couple years when I was doing PFS development) would identify the same niches I did. SRM used to say that "fantasy is a language" and it's true; there's a lot of stuff that just exists in the zeitgeist and it's inevitable that people with shared training and experiences will come to similar conclusions.
Your description of the Runeknight seems very much like a 2nd edition reimagining of the Occultist. I like it.
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I also would like Ninja, Samurai, and the remaining part of Cavalier as classes.
Another interesting class that I don't think many think about is one where they enhance existing items. While inventor is nice at creating weird stuff it's very tech based. I am suggesting something closer to the Sigilus Magus.
** spoiler omitted **
For the spoiled content, it reminds me of the idea I once had to have subclasses of the Wizard that would be specialists of one school only. What you described is close to how I envision the specialist of Conjuration.
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If we do see Ninja and Samurai make it into 2e as Archetypes, I'd actually rather see them as "general" Archetypes as opposed to Class Archetypes. Would allow for some more fun character concepts I think. Monastic Ninja with the Monk Class, stealth Ninja with the Rogue Class, magic Ninja with any of the Caster Classes. Warrior poet Samurai with the Bard Class, kensai Samurai with the Magus Class, bushi Samurai with the Fighter. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam. Cleric Ninja of Yaezhing, Champion Samurai of General Susumu or Shizuru. Bomber Ninja Alchemist. Brutal Samurai Barbarian. Ashigaru Samurai Gunslinger. Demon calling Summoner Ninja. Etc. Etc.
As long as they get continued support down the line, I'm very open to them being Archetypes.
Also, I'm still adamant on the idea that the yet ported parts of the Cavalier would work perfectly with the Champion's Code, Cause, and Tenets.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
lol I wonder if he knew about evolutionist. That third class he posted, even the examples of what it can do, is almost 100% what the class is about and things it can do.Hoping necrografts show up in Book of the Dead but maybe we'll see some sort of alchemy or crafting book that has them. I think last time they were introduced in the Black Market 1e book
The Evolutionist seems like an interesting interpretation of the Shifter, hoping something similar winds up in PF2, seems really cool.
I'm not sure how much the ideas in this post contributed to the current Starfinder class, but a little bit before Evolutionist was announced for Starfinder, Michael Sayre posted this in a previous thread about new 2e classes people would like to see.
** spoiler omitted **...
Legitimately a coincidence and something I probably wouldn't have said publicly had I realized another department was about to drop it, lol!
One of the realities of a new edition, or an edition with very measured growth like Starfinder, is asking "What kind of concepts are actually 1pp class material? What is something that a large enough group of people want to see in the game, that you don't have a clear path to currently?"
It's not surprising that my very talented peers (some of whom I worked closely with for a couple years when I was doing PFS development) would identify the same niches I did. SRM used to say that "fantasy is a language" and it's true; there's a lot of stuff that just exists in the zeitgeist and it's inevitable that people with shared training and experiences will come to similar conclusions.
The Runeknight description sounds absolutely incredible and is at the very top of my most wanted classes now. It could probably be reduced to a magus class archetype, but it has so much more potential as a full class, there are so many cool ideas it could play with. I have not really posted anything on the forums yet but I just had to comment on this because it is so cool.
also here's hoping I didn't mess up the formatting too badly.