Wonderstell |
So the Chart Caster Mesmerist has a really cool/powerful/strange ability called Feign Destiny.
At 3rd level, as an immediate action, a chart caster can grant an ally a +1 competence bonus on a failed attack roll, saving throw, or skill check by reminding his ally of their destined success. The chart caster must use his ability within 1 round of the failed check, and his ally must be within 30 feet of him when he does. If the bonus is enough to turn the failure into a success, the ally succeeds at the check. At 6th level, the bonus increases to +2. At 10th level, it increases to +5. A chart caster can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.
Do note that the ability does not have to be used in reaction to the failed check. You can use it at any time before one round as passed, turning the failure into a success.
So.
A Mesmerist CC, their Cavalier ally, and an Ogre is locked in combat. Nobody is flat-footed.
The Cavalier charges the Ogre but misses with their Spirited Charge attack roll.
On the Ogre's turn, it decides to take the Withdraw action and ends up 80 ft away behind three locked doors, surely running to get reinforcements.
The Mesmerist decides to use Feign Destiny which turns the failed attack roll into a success. This damage is enough to instantly kill the Ogre, and it does.
Does the Ogre die 80 ft away or next to the Cavalier?
Valandil Ancalime |
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I wonder what the person who wrote this ability was thinking when they put "within 1 round of the failed check"? What's the point of it being an immediate action? Like Claxon, as a GM I would rule that the ability has to be used immediately in response to the failure. I might be open to "within 1 round" for a few skill checks.
For the question of the Ogre, IMO it dies next to the cavalier.
Diego Rossi |
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Note that to use the ability you need a standard action. Not a problem with the "must use his ability within 1 round of the failed check" text, and probably the reason for that text, but the end result is a mess.
Let's make a very problematic example:
- an enemy cast confusion, the party barbarian fails it and attacks the nearest target, killing the cleric, then he is killed by an enemy that probably is alive only because he wasn't attacked by the barbarian.
- the Mesmerist uses his ability and retroactively allows him to save.
What happens? The barbarian and the cleric are alive and in full health?
The previous turn must be played again?
Ne barbarian dead body isn't confused but he and the cleric are still dead?
it is a 3rd level ability. Having it turn back time is a bit excessive, but if time doesn't rewind, it working if used within a round creates a lot of problems.
pad300 |
Note that to use the ability you need a standard action. Not a problem with the "must use his ability within 1 round of the failed check" text, and probably the reason for that text, but the end result is a mess.
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Why do you say this Diego? The quoted text says "as an immediate action"... Why do you need a standard action?
Belafon |
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I wonder what the person who wrote this ability was thinking when they put "within 1 round of the failed check"? What's the point of it being an immediate action? Like Claxon, as a GM I would rule that the ability has to be used immediately in response to the failure. I might be open to "within 1 round" for a few skill checks.
It makes a little more sense if it could only be used on saving throws. Failed vs. hold person? No! you're better than that.
Doesn't make sense on all saving throws, though. Failed vs. disintegrate? Get back up, you pile of ashes!
Diego Rossi |
Diego Rossi wrote:Why do you say this Diego? The quoted text says "as an immediate action"... Why do you need a standard action?Note that to use the ability you need a standard action. Not a problem with the "must use his ability within 1 round of the failed check" text, and probably the reason for that text, but the end result is a mess.
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Oops, currently eating a boot.
I read it rapidly, and didn't notice the "immediate action". As it can be used as an immediate action, even less reason for it to be usable within a round.
I suppose one of the two is an effect of an incomplete revision.
The "rewind time effect" is what jumped to my eyes, so I was a bit blind to the other effects.
Belafon |
I can think of two reasons for the wording:
1) The writer wanted it to be usable even if you’d already used your immediate action that round.
2) The writer was trying to do a good thing and prevent the RAW lawyers from saying “it just takes an immediate action to use it, but I can use it at any time. So I’m going to use it on that feeblemind I failed yesterday after I was out of daily uses of Feign Destiny.” However the better wording would have been “you must use this ability immediately after the result of the check is declared.”
Diego Rossi |
Yes, 1) is a possible reason. Another possible reason is to allow the Chart Caster to get in range of the ally by moving during his round.
The problem is that n whoever write it didn't take the needed step to detail what are the effects when you use it after other things have happened between the event and when the ability is used.
Consider the example above:
- the barbarian get back the actions he used while confused?
- the people he killed or wounded revive or are healed?
- the people that did take different actions because of what the barbarian did get their actions back?
- of far we go "taking back" the chain of events caused by a failed attack, failed save, or failed skill check?
The ability (unless I am missing something) can be used an unlimited number of times in a day. That means that the GM needs to note down every action that failed by the appropriate modifier, and any direct or indirect consequence, to be able to "rewind" them.
It is the kind of ability that will be hated in no time by most people at the table as it will slow down the game.
Taja the Barbarian |
Seems like a variation of the following spell: Source
Advanced Player's Guide pg. 249
Casting
Casting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Description
A word of arcane-empowered inspiration can snatch victory from seeming defeat. Cast this spell when a creature fails an attack roll or skill check. The target gains a +1 competence bonus per five caster levels (maximum +3 bonus) on the attack roll or skill check retroactively. If the bonus is enough to make the failure a success, the roll succeeds.
Personally, I'd go with 'use it right away or not at all' just for the sake of game play.
Also, that bonus scaling just screams 'TYPO' to me: +1, +2, +5???
Belafon |
The ability (unless I am missing something) can be used an unlimited number of times in a day. That means that the GM needs to note down every action that failed by the appropriate modifier, and any direct or indirect consequence, to be able to "rewind" them.
You are missing something.
… A chart caster can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.
I really do think it was an attempt to put a clear time limit on use. To cut off the same hyperliteral munchkins who argue that you only have to spend a swift action to enter a style once - ever - since the style rules don’t have an expiration timeframe. Unfortunately the author chose the wrong limit.
Te'Shen |
So the Chart Caster Mesmerist has a really cool/powerful/strange ability called Feign Destiny. . .
Do note that the ability does not have to be used in reaction to the failed check. You can use it at any time before one round as passed, turning the failure into a success.
So.
A Mesmerist CC, their Cavalier ally, and an Ogre is locked in combat. Nobody is flat-footed.
The Cavalier charges the Ogre but misses with their Spirited Charge attack roll.
On the Ogre's turn, it decides to take the Withdraw action and ends up 80 ft away behind three locked doors, surely running to get reinforcements.
The Mesmerist decides to use Feign Destiny which turns the failed attack roll into a success. This damage is enough to instantly kill the Ogre, and it does.Does the Ogre die 80 ft away or next to the Cavalier?
Though I understand the desire of others to want to fix the ability and simplify it to 'the ability has to be used immediately in response to the failure,' I think a class who generally has the ability to mentally manipulate others with mind powers could have such an ability and it might function more as a precognitive vision... kind of like the movie Next.
So in the example, the Ogre, Cavalier, and the Mesmerist, the Mesmerist is glancing at the near future and sharing this with his ally. Maybe it manifests for the Cavalier as a spider sense, or just an odd sense of deja vu, and the Cavalier uses that knowledge, that feeling, to 'do it right' this time. And the Ogre is S.O.L. right next to the Cavalier.
I've always had pretty small groups, so going one turn back on two to five players doesn't feel too complicated for me. I also love the idea of temporal abilities, though I can see why designers shy away from them generally.
Then again, as Taja the Barbarian pointed out, the +1, +2, +5 is obviously a typo.
Wonderstell |
2) The writer was trying to do a good thing and prevent the RAW lawyers from saying “it just takes an immediate action to use it, but I can use it at any time. So I’m going to use it on that feeblemind I failed yesterday after I was out of daily uses of Feign Destiny.” However the better wording would have been “you must use this ability immediately after the result of the check is declared.”
That would have been hilariously exploitable. Imagine finally hitting lv 10 and the Mesmerist asks the GM if the new +5 bonus would have been enough to make the failed save that ended your previous character three levels earlier.
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it is a 3rd level ability. Having it turn back time is a bit excessive, but if time doesn't rewind, it working if used within a round creates a lot of problems.
Hm. But if time does rewind, have I really spent a daily use of my ability since I do so after the event occurs? Is my immediate action gone?
I think the easiest solution would be to use Looney Tunes logic. Just "remind" the universe that the failure was a success and have the consequences of that event immediately occur when Feign Destiny is activated.
Diego Rossi |
I think the easiest solution would be to use Looney Tunes logic. Just "remind" the universe that the failure was a success and have the consequences of that event immediately occur when Feign Destiny is activated.
And what are the consequences? The barbarian not being confused? The damage he did to the Cleric? The actions of his other party members? The actions of the enemies?
Again, you need to replay all that happened after the failed check. And potentially it can happen several times in a game session.
That kind of stuff becomes stale very rapidly.
Wonderstell |
Wonderstell wrote:I think the easiest solution would be to use Looney Tunes logic. Just "remind" the universe that the failure was a success and have the consequences of that event immediately occur when Feign Destiny is activated.And what are the consequences? The barbarian not being confused?
Yup, only that. (Which would be a waste of the ability since the barb is already dead.)
In the original example the Ogre would be "reminded" that they had actually taken the hit and die 80 ft away from the Cavalier. Physics don't apply until the Ogre realizes they're dead.
Belafon |
As a minor point, that +1/+2/+5 bonus structure isn't necessarily a typo. . .
Agreed. This is one of the things that looks unusual but is not necessarily a typo. Especially since it replaces touch treatment, which at 10th level can remove "greater conditions." (How much "greater" those conditions are and whether it should be worth that much of a jump is, however, definitely up for debate.)
Even if it is a typo and is supposed to scale more linearly, there are two possible corrections:
+1/+2/+3
+1/+3/+5
Te'Shen |
pad300 wrote:As a minor point, that +1/+2/+5 bonus structure isn't necessarily a typo. . .Agreed. This is one of the things that looks unusual but is not necessarily a typo. Especially since it replaces touch treatment, which at 10th level can remove "greater conditions." (How much "greater" those conditions are and whether it should be worth that much of a jump is, however, definitely up for debate.)
Even if it is a typo and is supposed to scale more linearly, there are two possible corrections:
+1/+2/+3
+1/+3/+5
Well, we don't know without the designer's input. It could have been intended to be exponential up to a point (+1/+2/+4) and that last one was still a typo that didn't get fixed. Considering the feature it's replacing, as you mentioned, I don't think +1/+3/+5 is unreasonable at all.