I have a question about the action economy involved with the Deliver Touch Spells ability of the Ashiftah Witch archetype. It says:
Deliver Touch Spells (Su): Starting at 3rd level, an ashiftah can use her veil to deliver touch spells. After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action, she can tear a strip from her veil and whisper to it, designating a target. She then releases the scrap of fabric, which drifts on the wind to the target and delivers the spell as a ranged touch attack. The target must be within 20 feet of the witch. The veil mends itself after the spell is delivered.
The ability mentions that she can deliver touch spells as a full-round action after casting a touch spell. I take this to mean that you cast the touch spell as part of the full round action that it takes you to deliver it, but RAW this seems a bit unclear. It could also mean you first must use a standard action as normal to cast a touch spell, and then on your next round you can use a full round action to deliver it.
What do you think?
i think you are reading it wrong (but my English is not top grade, so correct me if im wrong). for it to be saying that the touch attack is a full round action the symbol (',') after the word 'action' should not be there at all. if it is as you say it would have been written as such:
"After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action (no ',' here) she can tear a strip from... "
the two "," before and after the mentioning of full round action come to say 'this thing explain stuff about what was written before'. it's an explanation of what action casting the spell is.
and since casting a touch or ranged touch attack spell includes (usually) a free action attack, only on the round it was cast. what this ability is doing is making the spell take longer to cast, but allowing a touch spell to be delivered in range.
the casting itself is a full round action, but since nothing is said about what action the touch attack is it fall back to the general rule of touch\ranged touch attack spells - it's a free action on the round it was cast, and a standard action on following rounds (if charge held\more then one attack per rounds etc).
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compare to this:
"After going home, by riding my bike, i went to the mall"
and
"after going home, by riding my bike i went to the mall."
the first explain i used the bike to go home, the 2nd explain i used the bike to go to the mall.
notice that both sentences leave an action unknown, in the first it is not known how i went to the mall. in the 2nd how i went home. in pathfinder such cases default back to the general rules.
in the case of 'the casting is full round action' the touch default to free action (on the same round it was cast). in the case of 'the touch attack is a full round action' the casting default back to how long the spell usually take to cast.
Thanks! That lines up with how I would intuitively expect this ability to work, it's just that the wording made me confused a bit.
you are welcome.
i think the reason for the first ',' being there and not left out like so :
" After casting a touch spell as a full-round action, she can tear a strip.."
is that if it wasn't there one might think this ability only work with touch spells that have a full round action casting time. And they wanted to tell the player that the spell's casting time changes into a full round action.
It could have, and should have, been worded better… but yes… grammatically does state that the casting is done as a full round action, which due to the rules for touch spells effectively makes the full ability a full round action. So yes… you can cast and deliver the spell as a ranged touch in the same round.
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I did read it the other way, but as a non-native English reader, I can miss some nuance.
If using the veil to deliver the spell is part of a full-round action that includes casting it, I would aspect something like this:
As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
Aashiftah's Deliver Touch Spells (Su):
Starting at 3rd level, an ashiftah can use her veil to deliver touch spells. (so far, no problem)After casting a touch spell, (a standard action is normally used here)
as a full-round action, (not you are asked to take a full round action, so apparently on the next turn, as you don't have one)
she can tear a strip from her veil and whisper to it, designating a target. (so apparently a standard or quickened action and a full round action)
But there is an RAI argument against that:
"Protecting Veil: An ashiftah’s veil is not merely a uniform, but a magical vestment imbued with power. Its ability to hold spells functions identically to a witch’s familiar. An ashiftah must veil herself and commune with her patron each day to prepare her spells and cannot prepare spells not stored in the veil.
This ability replaces familiar."
The veil takes the place of the witch familiar, and a familiar can deliver touch spells.
So, almost certainly RAI is that the witch will spend a full round action to cast and deliver a touch spell within 20'.
You trade range (as your familiar generally can go farther than that) for safety (as your familiar normally can be killed).
the words 'as a full round action' being right in the middle between two actions and separated from both with a "," before and after can refer to ether one.
" After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action, she can tear a strip..."
the correct way to word it would have been to remove the one "," that is connected to the action it refer to. so ether:
" After casting a touch spell as a full-round action, she can tear a strip.."
to indicate the first is taking a full round action (and the latter a free action like all touch spells)
or
" After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action she can tear a strip.."
to indicate the touch is a full round action (which is kinda different from any touch attack i know of) and that the spell take what ever action is listed in the spell info to cast it.
since they didn't word it in a simple way ether explanation is valid, i just picked the one that resemble other cases related to this (free action to deliver touch in spells, familiar's delivering etc) rather then one that make something far rare (a touch attack that take a full round action, after it has been charged in the previous action, as in casting it. this is not dragon-ball after all, i don't see why it should take so long just to deliver the attack after it already is charged.)
If you are a non-native English speaker, sure you could read it either way. But as a native English speaker, I can assure you that it is read as relating to the first part. When a statement is interjected with two commas surrounding it it reads as a quantifier to the first part of the full statement it is interjected into. In this case “After casting a touch spell she can tear a strip…” is the full statement, “as a full round action” is the interjection. To be more precise, an interjection acts as a quantifier for the whole.
If you are a non-native English speaker, sure you could read it either way. But as a native English speaker, I can assure you that it is read as relating to the first part. When a statement is interjected with two commas surrounding it it reads as a quantifier to the first part of the full statement it is interjected into. In this case “After casting a touch spell she can tear a strip…” is the full statement, “as a full round action” is the interjection. To be more precise, an interjection acts as a quantifier for the whole.
ok so the whole statement
- 'After casting a touch spell (, as a full-round action,) she can tear a strip from her veil and whisper to it, designating a target.'is 1 full round action?
seem to do what i thought it does.
sweet!
Instead of those two takes, I agree with the others that it's an additional full round action after the spell has been cast.
You agree with who? You know everyone above you has taken the other stance on this… and following proper English grammar rules, it factually does state that the entire action (casting the spell, tearing the veil, and delivering the touch attack) is performed as a full round action.
That said… problems can arise from long cast touch spells, but there is no reason to handle them any differently that how other similar abilities handle them. Those spells don’t get their touch in the same round you start casting normally, and any reasonably GM would disallow speeding up their casting time without any sort of cost involved.
As a general rule of thumb, it is better to have to have a rule apply fairly to most cases and only require a few edge cases need extra rulings at the table than to build a rule around those edge cases and gendering all uses of the ability as a result.