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I love making charts for odds of min maxed level 20 characters versus level 20-24 npcs. So I've been converted to this school after noticing something while doing that.
First is Chart of NPC saves handle versus maximum dc of 45.
DC 45 Extreme High Moderate Low Terrible
20 5 8 11 14 17
21 3 6 9 12 16
22 1(crit) 5 8 11 14
23 1(null) 4 7 10 13
24 1(null) 2 6 8 12
Null in this case means "can't crit fail since they succeed on DC on roll of nat 1". If DC was 48 instead(so +3 item bonus) then extreme saves on those levels would fail on 3 and nat 1 instead meaning level 24 creature could always crit fail.
This is notable mostly for me because this seems to be only example where no possibility of succeeds(or enemy crit fail) exists for level 22 and 23 extreme bonuses. Like yeah extreme bonuses is supposed to be almost impossible to fail or crit fail for bosses, but still.)
(max pc skill check versus extreme level 24 save DC succeeds on 18.
Even PC spell attack roll of 35 without item bonuses versus level 24 extreme ac can hit on 19.
Level 24 extreme strike bonus of 46 can crit miss PC max heavy armor of 47 on nat 1)
Level 24 extreme skill of +48 fails versus save DC 48, 23 its 46 vs 48 so at least they can still crit fail)
(but yeah, weird thing this causes is that even without +3 item bonus, spell attack rolls still have higher chance to succeed versus high ac final boss than spell dc versus their high save. Sure you are supposed to target their lower saves, but I still prefer there being small success chance versus moderate/severe extremes)
(I have absolutely no idea how expensive and on which levels this should be possible, but I do think its kinda unfair Class/Spell DCs are two extra levels of bosses they do notable worse against than every other max stat pre debuffs. There should be SOME sort of reward for investing stat in being max, even if we don't use +6 bonus as max basis and +7 as "hey you went beyond the max for nice 5% extra chance")
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First is Chart of NPC saves handle versus maximum dc of 45.
DC 45 Extreme High Moderate Low Terrible
20 5 8 11 14 17
21 3 6 9 12 16
22 1(crit) 5 8 11 14
23 1(null) 4 7 10 13
24 1(null) 2 6 8 12
Chart of NPC saves handle versus maximum dc of 17 at level 1.
DC 17 Extreme High Moderate Low Terrible
1 6 7 10 13 15
2 5 6 9 12 14
3 3 5 8 11 13
4 2 3 6 9 11
5 1(null) 2 5 8 10
At level 1, Extreme values are closer to high ones, but other values are extremely close to level 20's, saves are actually easier to succeed at level 1 than it is at level 20. Also at level 20 you have more ways to give maluses to the enemy. And you have the choice between more spells, targetting the enemy moderate or lowest save should be easier.
If you add a +3 bonus, you make the DC significantly harder at level 20 than at level 1. And I think it shouldn't be the case at all, especially because you start getting high chances of critical failure and these are insta wins. For example, against a level +3 monster with a low save, if you add the +3, a good malus to save (+3 is achievable at that level), the enemy crit fails on 5, which means that the fight is over 25% of the time. That seems out of line to me, bosses must be bosses.
So, I think you should reconsider bonuses to DCs.
And Extreme save bonuses should be obvious. Targetting a gigantic monster with a Fortitude save or a high level spellcaster with a will save should be doomed to failure.
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Hmm I still think though that level 22 and 23 extreme bonus shouldn't be basically auto success for level 20 max stat caster though. Do you have alternate solution to that?
(that and arguably, isn't it still problem if level 20 max stat character has same chance of success versus same level of boss as level 1 character? It means they just keep up the math and if you made 16 level 1 stat character or gave your apex bonus to low save stat, you are always notably behind the math.
Like I think game should definitely reward possibility of not giving apex bonus to your main stat)
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You can just reduce the difference between extreme and high DCs. It's a bit annoying to do, but roughly you can limit Extreme DCs to same level High DC + 2. It would do the trick.
But I don't see an automated way of doing it, unless you want to reduce all enemy saves or want the game to be even more about spellcasters at high level.
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Also keep in mind that most ennemies and bosses do not have auto scaling mechanics.
All players will eventually have auto scaling in at least one save, some 2.
Most bosses do not so even though they need a 2 to save on their strongest save, they still need a 12 to Crit succeed.
The main question I have is: why are you targeting their strongest save? A +4 level boss is already incredibly hard to land a failure on, why are you shooting yourself in the foot targeting their highest save? You're a caster, try to find the weak spot.
This is an advice I give all my players who play spellcasters: play what's in front of you, not what your plan is.
A lot of ennemies (specially at high levelz) will give you up to an added 40% increased accuracy between their highest and lowest. Adding item bonuses on that would be presopterous. Stop targeting the one save, diversify your spells.
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With attack roll spells I do feel a bit less accurate than martial characters with their weapons. But for most save-based spells, still doing half damage even when I don't land the spell properly feels really good. Some martial classes do get the ability to do some damage on a miss, but it usually isn't very much damage.
Something to keep in mind when you try to rebalance things.
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The problem conceptually is really Extreme saves, which really should be relatively rare. If you follow the notes, most monsters should have one High, one Moderate, one Low save. It's also noted in the description that almost no creature should have more than one extreme save, even at the highest of levels.
Does this mean that if a character is level 20 and facing off vs a creature 3 levels higher, and only can affect one type of save, that they might be in a bind? Yes, but by level 20 they probably should be able to do more than one thing, especially in 2e.
I think it does note that 3-4 stats might be Extreme at levels higher than 20, but odds are players can target other defenses, especially since only one save should be Extreme.