Locate Object - exactly what does "kind" mean?


Rules Questions


I know the answer is almost certainly "not covered in the rules", but how in general do GMs interpret "kind" similarity for locate object? Is it based only on physical description, or can it include magical properties?

Would "the closest +1 anarchic longsword" work? That is, can you search for an item with a specific enchantment? In the real world two longswords can look very different from one another; does the *look* of the item matter? (Of course the caster would have to have handled a +1 anarchic longsword at some point).

How about "the closest +1 anarchic weapon"? How general can "kind" be, and can it be based just on enchantment? Or on enchantment at all? Or "the closest magic dagger"?

(It did occur to me that any D&D3/PF1 setting that includes any sort of secret society where everyone in the society wears or carries the same token to indicate membership, e.g. some nonmagical membership ring, is a setting where someone didn't think through the magical implications.)


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Locate Object

School divination; Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 3, witch 3; Domain travel 2; Subdomain thievery 3; Mystery lore 3

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (a forked twig)

EFFECT

Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area circle, centered on you, with a radius of 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION

You sense the direction of a well-known or clearly visualized object. You can search for general items, in which case you locate the nearest of its kind if more than one is within range. Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails. You cannot specify a unique item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination).

The spell is blocked by even a thin sheet of lead. Creatures cannot be found by this spell. Polymorph any object and nondetection fool it.

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eyelessgame wrote:
I know the answer is almost certainly "not covered in the rules", but how in general do GMs interpret "kind" similarity for locate object? Is it based only on physical description, or can it include magical properties?

I consider it as nearest object(s) of its "kind" as a general statement, and this would come into play if the PC casts the spell and then asks for a general item, such as "where is a pair of goggles?" There could be 100 goggles in the area, but the DM will point you towards the nearest pair of goggles; the DM would respond "you begin to sense that there is a pair of goggles directly north-west of your location" and for the rest of the 1min/level duration you would continue to sense the direction of those goggles (and that direction could change, such as in case the goggles are on a moving cart). Likewise, you could be in the middle of a marketplace, cast the spell, and ask "where is a pair of Smoked Goggles?" There might be... 2 or 3-ish? pairs, maybe, depending on that market, and the DM would similarly point you towards the nearest pair.

eyelessgame wrote:
Would "the closest +1 anarchic longsword" work? That is, can you search for an item with a specific enchantment? In the real world two longswords can look very different from one another; does the *look* of the item matter? (Of course the caster would have to have handled a +1 anarchic longsword at some point).

Yes, you would've needed to have seen the unique item you're specifically looking for in person (and not through Scrying/Divination) to be able to use this spell in this way.

The "closest +1 anarchic longsword" is very specific, and unique. So this follows the unique item rules in the spell: "Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails. You cannot specify a unique item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination)."

The only time I would consider something like this as "general rules" is if you're in an area with more than 4-5 of these, such as a market that exclusively sells +1 anarchic longswords, and there are multiple in the market.

eyelessgame wrote:
How about "the closest +1 anarchic weapon"? How general can "kind" be, and can it be based just on enchantment? Or on enchantment at all? Or "the closest magic dagger"?

This kinda depends, because this is pretty specific, but also general at the same time. If there are more 1 anarchic weapons in range, then I would follow the general rules, but if there's only 1 in range, I'd say you'd have to have seen this specific weapon.

While you are a PC, you are considered a Hero in the world you play in, and +1 anarchic weapons might be something that you find somewhat often while adventuring, but these items are quite scarce in the "real world", and are quite unique. Maybe if the world you play in is considered "High Magic" and these items are plentiful, then it could be appropriate to consider these as general items that can be found without previously viewing them, but if you're in a "Normal Magic" or "Low Magic" world, then I'd say +1 anarchic weapons are highly unique.

Let's go back to the Smoked Goggles example for a minute; if your world is a "Low Smoked Goggles" world, then this just became a very specific and unique item. But let's say you're in a "High Smoked Goggles" world and the PC asks "where's the nearest Smoked Goggles" and there are 100 in range, this could be considered under the general rules, but let's say you're in a "High Smoked Goggles" world and the PC asks "where's the nearest Smoked Goggles that has a yellow lightning bolt drawn on the side of the frames?", now we've re-entered the specific/unique rules.

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TLDR: There's a lot of GM fiat/wiggle room with this, so it's up to the GM on how they handle the general vs. unique clause in this spell.


eyelessgame wrote:
Would "the closest +1 anarchic longsword" work? That is, can you search for an item with a specific enchantment?

That is very unlikely to work. You have to be able to visualize something (and this clearly is not a 'general item'). I would find it hard to visualize the property '+1' or the property 'anarchic', in a way that would count as anything beyond being a specific type of item (meaning, you'd have to have seen the specific +1 longsword whether anarchic or not), unless every +1 anarchic longsword looks incredibly similar to each other (unlikely).

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That is, can you search for an item with a specific enchantment?

Not likely, it would have to be something you can specifically envision. Something like flaming possibly, but that wouldn't entail an enchantment necessarily. It would be any general longsword (because if you're looking for a specific one, then you know what it looks like specifically, flaming or not) that is currently flaming. That means one dipped in oil and lit, or even with an illusion of being flaming, or maybe a newly forged one that was just dipped into oil to cool from the forge and when pulled out burst into flame at that moment before being quenched again. If there was a flaming longsword in the area, but it wasn't currently activated (ie. not flaming), then you wouldn't locate it.

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In the real world two longswords can look very different from one another; does the *look* of the item matter?

Longswords can come in many sizes, but I think for game purposes, that is distinctive enough that the game (and GM) can figure out what it means. So asking to locate the nearest longsword probably will get you something that conforms to the stats of a longsword in the rulebook. It might be blue colored, it might be steel colored, it might be blue-steel colored, but it will probably hit for 1d8 damage. It might be silver (in which case it would hit for –1 damage) or it might be wood, which means it will break easier. But it probably wouldn't be a plastic, balloon, or toy longsword unless those were still based on 1d8 damage (otherwise it would just be an improvised weapon that looks like a longsword).

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How about "the closest +1 anarchic weapon"?

"Closest weapon" definitely is not sufficient. If I say the word "weapon" 10 people will get a little cartoon picture in their heads and at best 3 might be similar to each other (like "a sword" as opposed to "a longsword, a shortsword, or a greatsword") and we can probably agree that trying to locate the nearest longsword should not lead to a great- or two-bladed sword (even if both blades were equivalent to the size, shape, and damage of a longsword).

Even with similar items, there can be greatly differing sizes and shapes, so a GM is fair in asking what you're picturing. For instance, if you say "rope" the GM might just go closest rope, whether magic, non-magic, hemp, or silk. Or he might ask what you are picturing, and you might say, "silk rope" or "hemp rope" or even "thick, hemp, mooring rope" like the kind used to moor ships to piers (the forearm thick kind). Similarly, you might say "needle", which could conjure a picture of a sewing needle (little hole for running thread through), a pin, an acupuncture needle, a blowgun needle, or even a pine needle (that last one is very unlikely, but it is a needle). So if you didn't say "sewing", "acupuncture" or "pine" as an adjective, a GM would/could say, "what are you picturing".

Liberty's Edge

You can try scrying for a very specific model of a weapon, so, if the game lore is detailed enough you can have a chance, but it requires something specific like:
"In Taldan under Emperor Pallimistus II the members of the Emperor guard all used +1 axiomatic gladiuses with the personal crest of the Emperor, an eagle with a lighting bolt and an arrow in its claws, on the crossguard."
Then you can use locate object to find the nearest gladius with that design. If you know the shape of a gladius and of the crest of the Emperor, it should work.

Sovereign Court

Unfortunately the spells Locate Object and Locate Creature lost some of their text (specially the example texts) when brought to Pathfinder from 3.5

If you want to understand what the text meant by "kind" look back at the 3.0 or 3.5 wording of the spell

(https://rpg20.com/spells.php?reptype=fullentry&valueid=280)

The specific wording change is "The character can search for general items such as a stairway, a sword, or a jewel, in which case the character locates the nearest one of its...."


this hails back to Aristotle & Plato's Theory of Forms. You can look for the ideal/idealized Ladder but in fact you get the closest Real one.

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