5e D&D’s Meteoric Success


5th Edition (And Beyond)


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8 years into its life and two years shy of its next edition refresh on its 50h Anniversary Wizards of the Coast just posted their most profitable year in history.

5th Edition restored D&D’s place as the #1 selling game, and it has grown to the point where the #2 game can scarcely catch it. Now in a class by itself, how long much higher can it go? Will the refresh lower sales or raise it to even greater heights in 2024!

This is a thread to talk about the perpetual success of the current version of D&D.


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dirtypool wrote:

8 years into its life and two years shy of its next edition refresh on its 50h Anniversary Wizards of the Coast just posted their most profitable year in history.

5th Edition restored D&D’s place as the #1 selling game, and it has grown to the point where the #2 game can scarcely catch it. Now in a class by itself, how long much higher can it go? Will the refresh lower sales or raise it to even greater heights in 2024!

This is a thread to talk about the perpetual success of the current version of D&D.

More importantly, from my point of view, than the relative positions - will D&D continue to expand the market for RPGs in general?


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Im hoping for the modules they talked about in NEXT to happen in 5.5E.

Liberty's Edge

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It does make 5.5e seem a little unnecessary.
They're making all the money already, why rock the boat?

It seems foolish to try and ask the audience to buy the books all over again and convert, when most have only been playing for 2-5 years and have only scratched the surface of 5e. They're not ready for a new edition as they haven't burned out of the current edition.

I know I'm not converting. I have 2-3 more 5e campaigns in me at least, and some side games. (Eclipse Phase and Star Wars. Maybe some Shadows of Esteren.) I have my gaming locked in for the next half-decade without buying a single new book.

It feels more like the D&D teams just ran out of 5e book ideas and wants to justify having such a big team.
And it's an excuse to "fix" the game and remove problematic aspects. They're not fixing broken mechanics that don't play well at the table, but "broken" mechanics that get them flamed on Twitter.

Liberty's Edge

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Planpanther wrote:
Im hoping for the modules they talked about in NEXT to happen in 5.5E.

Doubtful.

Those modules were aimed at appealing to fans of older editions.
They're not even really making books and content for fans of early 5e anymore.

If you're over 25, you're no longer the target audience of WotC.


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With the Vox Machina show hitting Amazon and the movie landing soon, I expect D&D's popularity will continue to rise. I watched a video by Professor Dungeon Master on Youtube (linked below) that suggested Hasbro will be driving a big push into digital content that targets people not already playing conventional/tabletop D&D.

video link

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Jester David wrote:
If you're over 25, you're no longer the target audience of WotC.

I wonder if there is a gaming company positioned to scoop up these now abandoned gamers?

Liberty's Edge

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Lord Fyre wrote:
Jester David wrote:
If you're over 25, you're no longer the target audience of WotC.
I wonder if there is a gaming company positioned to scoop up these now abandoned gamers?

I know you’re implying this could be Paizo, but people switched from PF to 5e for a reason and didn’t come back to PF with PF2.

Even Level Up by EN Publishing—designed as a more “advanced version of 5e—is only attracting a small number of players.

Really, I imagine a lot of fans will just stick with 5e and the books they already have. They’ll just stop buying new books.

Liberty's Edge

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mikeawmids wrote:

With the Vox Machina show hitting Amazon and the movie landing soon, I expect D&D's popularity will continue to rise. I watched a video by Professor Dungeon Master on Youtube (linked below) that suggested Hasbro will be driving a big push into digital content that targets people not already playing conventional/tabletop D&D.

video link

I have my doubts for that.

Streaming games work because you can see the game. It looks like fun so you want to try. But the cartoon is just fun but doesn’t imply you could be doing what they’re doing. It’s more passive.

It might get more people to watch the stream and be introduced to D&D that way. But I think there’s a finite number of people who would be interested in CR but haven’t watched already.
But we’ll see…


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Jester David wrote:
Really, I imagine a lot of fans will just stick with 5e and the books they already have. They’ll just stop buying new books.

Stop buying books by WotC maybe, but with the OGL, they are almost guaranteed to find something more compatible with their needs on Drivethru.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Jester David wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Jester David wrote:
If you're over 25, you're no longer the target audience of WotC.
I wonder if there is a gaming company positioned to scoop up these now abandoned gamers?

I know you’re implying this could be Paizo, but people switched from PF to 5e for a reason and didn’t come back to PF with PF2.

Even Level Up by EN Publishing—designed as a more “advanced version of 5e—is only attracting a small number of players.

Really, I imagine a lot of fans will just stick with 5e and the books they already have. They’ll just stop buying new books.

What I am implying is something slightly different.

I agree that your analysis is correct. These gamers are likely not to go forward into D&D 5.5. This creates a golden opportunity for Paizo (that they will likely choose not to take. :()

Paizo's greatest strengths have always been their Adventure Paths and their Campaign Setting material.

Hardcover rebuilds (just like they did for RotR & CotCT) of Paizo's existing APs setting material into D&D 5E has the potential to steal these (abandoned) gamers back (and thus be a big cash cow for Paizo).

Paizo's initial success was gained by capitalizing on Wizards' missteps. Why shouldn't Paizo do that again?


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Jester David wrote:
[Even Level Up by EN Publishing—designed as a more “advanced version of 5e—is only attracting a small number of players.

We obviously cannot say how many players will be attracted to A5e once it hits wide release, we can only speak to the number of people who backed the project in Kickstarter.

If you follow D&D and TTRPG discussions on Twitter you will have noticed over the last week a very vocal outcry from D&D 5e fans who are dissatisfied and are looking for an alternative.

This represents an X factor that could skew players toward any number of games. Pathfinder 2 has been a trending topic for about a week now.

Liberty's Edge

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mikeawmids wrote:
Stop buying books by WotC maybe, but with the OGL, they are almost guaranteed to find something more compatible with their needs on Drivethru.

Maybe.

I know I'm not because I already have more than enough D&D content to last me for years. Most of the DMsGuild and DriveThru content I buy just sits in my digital library.

Kickstarter is something different, but once 5.5 hits that might hurt a LOT of publishers who have a catalogue of 5.0 material than they can no longer give away. Paired with the shipping apocalypse and rising production costs, eating into Kickstarter profits.
(I feel bad for Kobold Press and anyone with a 5e book in the works in the next 18 months.)

Lord Fyre wrote:

I agree that your analysis is correct. These gamers are likely not to go forward into D&D 5.5. This creates a golden opportunity for Paizo (that they will likely choose not to take. :()

Paizo's greatest strengths have always been their Adventure Paths and their Campaign Setting material.

Hardcover rebuilds (just like they did for RotR & CotCT) of Paizo's existing APs setting material into D&D 5E has the potential to steal these (abandoned) gamers back (and thus be a big cash cow for Paizo).

I was always stunned Paizo didn't launch into a line of 5e AP updates as easy money.

Reprinting and updating books where they didn't need to pay for writing or art. Monster books and setting books that just required a minor system rewrite that would likely have sold 10x better than their other products.

It really felt like spite. They were so pissed at WotC for burning them that they avoided doing anything associated with D&D until Kingmaker. (And then sat on that book until it might end up as a DOA release with 5.5 looming.)

Liberty's Edge

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dirtypool wrote:
Jester David wrote:
[Even Level Up by EN Publishing—designed as a more “advanced version of 5e—is only attracting a small number of players.
We obviously cannot say how many players will be attracted to A5e once it hits wide release, we can only speak to the number of people who backed the project in Kickstarter.

It's available for wide release already. The books are on DriveThru. And have been for two months.

So far the Adventurer's Guide is a Silver bestseller, which means it's sold <250 copies.
With the Kickstarter, it seems like ≈6k people really want a more advanced version of 5e. Which is HUGE for a micropublisher like ENWorld Publishing. But is peanuts compared to D&D.

dirtypool wrote:

If you follow D&D and TTRPG discussions on Twitter you will have noticed over the last week a very vocal outcry from D&D 5e fans who are dissatisfied and are looking for an alternative.

This represents an X factor that could skew players toward any number of games. Pathfinder 2 has been a trending topic for about a week now.

Not on Twitter because it's a toxic cesspool. It's where you go to have your Two Minutes Hate.

(Plus, what is or is not trending on Twitter can really depend on what you search for and topics you frequent.)

I think Paizo had the opportunity to position themselves as an alternative to WotC. Finding a sweet spot between PF1 and 5e in terms of rules and complexity and gameplay.
But they really didn't.
Pathfinder 2 had a choice between the existing audience—which was small but liked a complexity heavy game—and expanding out into the much larger pool of casual gamers. And they chose their current audience. Which doesn't seem like a *bad* decision, but does limit their growth.

Pathfinder 2 is really good at what it does, and is a really well balanced game that doubles down on the expected "sweet spot" of 1e Pathfinder and PFS style play. It takes the PF1 game and unifies mechanics across the board. But it's like 75% more complicated than it needs to be. Every mechanic is just that little bit more fiddly and complicated than it could be. It's not a game that will every find widespread appeal with casual players.

I'm literally watching Critical Role as I type this. The big fight in the latest episode. And, as always, it's pretty clear than even D&D 5e is significantly more dense and complicated for half the players in the cast to remember what their characters can do.

It does suggest that a more story-lite and narrative game could easily take it's place as the #2 RPG. Especially if hyped and advertised by the right group of streamers. (Really, if Darrington Press does its own version of 5e, that would be the D&D killer.) I could see Free League/ Fria Ligan seguing into a very popular, based on it's (fantastic) Alien RPG, which could lead people to The One Ring[/], [i]Vaesen, or Forbidden Lands.


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Jester David wrote:


It's available for wide release already. The books are on DriveThru. And have been for two months.
So far the Adventurer's Guide is a Silver bestseller, which means it's sold <250 copies.
With the Kickstarter, it seems like ≈6k people really want a more advanced version of 5e. Which is HUGE for a micropublisher like ENWorld Publishing. But is peanuts compared to D&D.

This of course neglects the traditionally printed copies ENWorld will sell through on their own site, which again are not yet available.

Jester David wrote:


Not on Twitter because it's a toxic cesspool. It's where you go to have your Two Minutes Hate.
(Plus, what is or is not trending on Twitter can really depend on what you search for and topics you frequent.)

Well not having been there certainly leaves you without much frame of reference for commenting on this, but I’ll clarify, it is day after day of people who post within the TTRPG hashtags commenting their PF2e is a main page trending topic and engaging in conversations about it.

As for defining what Paizo did or did not do with either edition of their games, that does tend to border on edition warring in threads like these and is probably best avoided.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Jester David wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

I agree that your analysis is correct. These gamers are likely not to go forward into D&D 5.5. This creates a golden opportunity for Paizo (that they will likely choose not to take. :()

Paizo's greatest strengths have always been their Adventure Paths and their Campaign Setting material.

Hardcover rebuilds (just like they did for RotR & CotCT) of Paizo's existing APs setting material into D&D 5E has the potential to steal these (abandoned) gamers back (and thus be a big cash cow for Paizo).

I was always stunned Paizo didn't launch into a line of 5e AP updates as easy money.

Reprinting and updating books where they didn't need to pay for writing or art. Monster books and setting books that just required a minor system rewrite that would likely have sold 10x better than their other products.

I think it would have required a bit more re-writing than that, but not much.

"sold 10x better" sounds a bit optimistic. But, even at somewhat less then 10x, it would still have been a major cash cow.

Paizo still has (had?) a lot of good will in the gaming community, even with those who have moved on to D&D 5E.

Jester David wrote:
With the Kickstarter, it seems like ≈6k people really want a more advanced version of 5e. Which is HUGE for a micropublisher like ENWorld Publishing. But is peanuts compared to D&D.

This sounds like it would have been a better "target" for PF 2E.

Liberty's Edge

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dirtypool wrote:
Jester David wrote:

It's available for wide release already. The books are on DriveThru. And have been for two months.

So far the Adventurer's Guide is a Silver bestseller, which means it's sold <250 copies.
With the Kickstarter, it seems like ≈6k people really want a more advanced version of 5e. Which is HUGE for a micropublisher like ENWorld Publishing. But is peanuts compared to D&D.
This of course neglects the traditionally printed copies ENWorld will sell through on their own site, which again are not yet available.

Even if three or four times as many people are buying the physical hardcover or getting the PDFs from the publisher's store as are buying the PDFs from DriveThru, that's still probably less than 7,000 total sales.

And you won't be able to buy the books in game stores, let alone big box stores.

It's a small publisher (albeit doing very well for a small publisher) but an order of magnitude smaller than Pathfinder in 2009, let alone modern D&D.

Which is why I don't think we're ever going to get a replication of the rise of Pathfinder in the early 2010s. Paizo was perfectly placed, having the fandom of many D&D players following their time with the magazines AND many other 3rd Party Publishers having gone under following the transition to 3.5e. The field had been cleared of competitors AND they had experience physically publishing books on a strict deadline.
Meanwhile, social media was in its infancy, so there wasn't this plethora of people talking about D&D alternatives and smaller systems.

But just like we never saw anyone release an updated and revised version of 4e or how a single OSR game hasn't captured that fanbase, I don't think we'll see anyone release a standout revised version of 5e. There's so many small games on the market already, it'd be hard to stand out and garner attention without someone like a major streamer giving their support or some other X factor. And it's often just easier for people to hack the existing rules.

dirtypool wrote:
Jester David wrote:

Not on Twitter because it's a toxic cesspool. It's where you go to have your Two Minutes Hate.

(Plus, what is or is not trending on Twitter can really depend on what you search for and topics you frequent.)
Well not having been there certainly leaves you without much frame of reference for commenting on this, but I’ll clarify, it is day after day of people who post within the TTRPG hashtags commenting their PF2e is a main page trending topic and engaging in conversations about it.

Again, Twitter shows you conversations you engage with. If you mention Pathfinder a lot, it will show you more Pathfinder content. That's literally how the platform is designed to work: show you content you engage with to keep you on the platform longer so you see more ads.

There's content demonstrating Twitter was showing it off Pathfinder discussion with this Tweet:
https://twitter.com/zebeev/status/1493607124986912768?s=20&t=2Sxm4s41Q2 MRJlkQcNlcWg
But 2,209 Tweets is nothing. Wordle has 10x that number right now. With Epstein sitting at 76k within the last hour. (And the comparison isn't D&D but WotC, which typically only gets mentioned in regards to the business side: most gamers use #DnD or #DungeonsAndDragons.)

dirtypool wrote:
As for defining what Paizo did or did not do with either edition of their games, that does tend to border on edition warring in threads like these and is probably best avoided.

It's only to be avoided if people can't talk like mature adults.

I don't think it's edition waring to point out that Paizo focused on their core audience and didn't design Pathfinder 2 with casual play, social gamers, and ease of streaming in mind. It is very, very much a game designed by and for people who like designing characters, having lots of different builds, and having a decent "hand size" of options each round in combat.
Nor would I say it's edition warring to say Pathfinder 2 is a complex game. It is the most complicated RPG system published in the last fifteen years and probably the most complicated in-print game on game store shelves. These aren't complaints or flaws with the game; I'm sure most fans of Pathfinder would argue these are big ol' checks in the "pro" column.

PF2 has a specific audience and satisfies that audience well. However, this also makes it a niche game that will find it challenging to reach a wider mainstream audience. And thus it's unlikely to capture the disenfranchised and dissatisfied 5e players who might feel cast off by WotC and 5.5e.
Because what many, many 5e players want from a game is NOT something offered by 3e/ 4e/ PF1 or PF2. As clearly demonstrated by the impressive success of 5e in 2015-16, even before waves new players flocked in. Even then, 5e was the most successful version of D&D since the '80s, which says there were a lot of players who didn't want what had been offered the prior decade-and-a-half.

Pathfinder 2 is to 3e/d20 system like the OSR games are to AD&D and Basic D&D. It's d20SR. But for the many players who skipped 3e and fell in love with 5e or the 4e fans that continued onto 5e, a d20SR just isn't as desirable. An OSR game might be more appealing.

Liberty's Edge

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Lord Fyre wrote:
Jester David wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

I agree that your analysis is correct. These gamers are likely not to go forward into D&D 5.5. This creates a golden opportunity for Paizo (that they will likely choose not to take. :()

Paizo's greatest strengths have always been their Adventure Paths and their Campaign Setting material.

Hardcover rebuilds (just like they did for RotR & CotCT) of Paizo's existing APs setting material into D&D 5E has the potential to steal these (abandoned) gamers back (and thus be a big cash cow for Paizo).

I was always stunned Paizo didn't launch into a line of 5e AP updates as easy money.

Reprinting and updating books where they didn't need to pay for writing or art. Monster books and setting books that just required a minor system rewrite that would likely have sold 10x better than their other products.

I think it would have required a bit more re-writing than that, but not much.

I'm currently running Carrion Crown updated to 5e and it's a fair amount of work, but far less than making an AP. 4-6 pages of conversion text. It would likely take longer in layout than it would in writing.

When you consider art and maps are the most expensive part of making an AP (the writing is relatively cheap) it would make for a product with a very nice profit margin.

Assuming they did full conversions and not just what I'm doing: a guide of replacement encounters and treasure, which could have been sold as a cheap PDF, allowing people to buy their existing books and increasing sales of their existing products.

Lord Fyre wrote:

"sold 10x better" sounds a bit optimistic. But, even at somewhat less then 10x, it would still have been a major cash cow.

Paizo still has (had?) a lot of good will in the gaming community, even with those who have moved on to D&D 5E.

I know I would have dropped cash on them in a heartbeat, as I loved Paizo and wanted to keep throwing money at them, even though I burned out of 3e/PF.

Lord Fyre wrote:
Jester David wrote:
With the Kickstarter, it seems like ≈6k people really want a more advanced version of 5e. Which is HUGE for a micropublisher like ENWorld Publishing. But is peanuts compared to D&D.
This sounds like it would have been a better "target" for PF 2E.

It's what I was hoping for. Something slightly more complex than 5e (with optional/ opt-in complexity with some characters) and more dynamic monsters.

I had a wish list of what I wanted from Pathfinder 2. And they pretty much did the opposite.

Sometimes I think Level-Up is as much for dissatisfied PF2 players as for dissatisfied 5e players. That the Morrus from ENWorld was hoping PF2 would be like this and when it wasn't he decided to make his own game.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Thanks for taking a second to log onto Twitter so you could best lecture me about how I’m wrong about a conversation I’ve been engaging in and you haven’t. People who do not talk about Pathfinder were seeing the Pathfinder2e hashtag trending, said as much, and joined the conversation.

It took a hashtag and promoted it to more and more people who mightengage with it, and they did. That’s literally how the platform is designed to function. On Wednesday PF2e tweets outnumbered dnd tweets.

This thread was literally created to try to move beyond the constant comparison and unnecessary competition baiting centering in this forum setting conversations about D&D and 5e. This isn’t a sporting event, one doesn’t fail for the other to succeed and not being #1 is not a loss.

Liberty's Edge

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dirtypool wrote:
It took a hashtag and promoted it to more and more people who mightengage with it, and they did. That’s literally how the platform is designed to function. On Wednesday PF2e tweets outnumbered dnd tweets.

Have a screenshot to prove that?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sure here’s some proof it was on the main trending page and not the “for you” page.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

There are many many more with statements to similar effect. You’re welcome to click the hashtag and scroll for more.

Before you reply that you really wanted proof that the # had more tweets the other day, No I did not take a screenshot to prove that it had a higher tweet volume at that time and I’ll kindly refer you to every time in the past three years you dismissed any request for evidence on any of your claims.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinions, but requiring that people accept them without pushback while demanding evidence of their accounts of actual events is a double standard I’ll not be engaging with you in.

Liberty's Edge

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dirtypool wrote:
Before you reply that you really wanted proof that the # had more tweets the other day, No I did not take a screenshot to prove that it had a higher tweet volume at that time

I'm not sure why you bothered then. Knowing it was trending but not how it compared to #DnD at the time is meaningless.

Was it just trending compared to WotC? D&D? RPGs? How long was it trending for? Was it trending because it was higher than normal but still lower than #dnd or was it higher than #dnd for several days?
(Heck, the fact that the one time Pathfinder 2 trended is so memorable is rather telling, because it clearly doesn't happen often then.)

Yeah, I'll buy it was trending for a time. Trends tend to be self-generating that way. A third of the tweets you linked were basically "WFT, Pathfinder 2 is trending! Cool!" which escalates the trend and leads to more tweets in a feedback loop.

And sure, I'll buy most of them were positive. But not all were universally positive, such as:

dirtypool wrote:
8

Which pretty clearly outlines the feature/bugs of the system, and why it's not for everyone. And succinctly outlined why it probably won't be able to steal 5e's audience with this tweet:

https://twitter.com/djrhutton/status/1493795925315047424?s=20&t=7-p6jcu YdLh1sQ7VZWXnYQ

(Also, not being a Colville watcher, I've never heard the term "soulless rules pedant," before it was mentioned in that thread. But hearing the term, it seems perfect: I have played with many of those in my 3e/ PF days. And PF very much did bring out the "soulless rules pedant" behaviour in one of my regulars.)

dirtypool wrote:
I’ll kindly refer you to every time in the past three years you dismissed any request for evidence on any of your claims.

Should I then be as dismissive as you were each time "adequate proof" was not supplied?

dirtypool wrote:
You’re certainly entitled to your opinions, but requiring that people accept them without pushback while demanding evidence of their accounts of actual events is a double standard I’ll not be engaging with you in.

I don't require people to accept my opinions or tastes. But when people disagree with my opinions in such a way that they're saying my opinions are wrong and theirs are right, of course I'm going to argue back.

Especially when my opinions are as controversial as "D&D is indisputably doing well" and "3rd Party D&D products are also selling very well" and "Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a complex and dense game" and "5e and PF2 are such different games, fans disenfranchised by the former will likely not be satisfied by the latter."


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jester David wrote:
I'm not sure why you bothered then.

I’m not sure why you’re bothering to continue to make yourself right about a conversation on a platform you claim you don’t even engage in.

I stated it was Main Page Trending for several days and that on one of those days #Pathfinder2e had more tweets than #dnd
At that time neither #WOTC #D&D nor #RPGs were visibly main page trending for a comparison to be drawn.

It began trending the day it became public that WOTC was exploring NFTs and continued for days afterward. The conclusion that this is memorable because it doesn’t happen often is one purely born out of your own bias. It is memorable because it happened this week. The frequency of it is purely your read on it.

No claim you have ever made on this website has ever been given that kind of scrutiny.

Jester David wrote:


Should I then be as dismissive as you were each time "adequate proof" was not supplied?

Considering I made a statement that something happened on Twitter and provided you with 10 tweets that reference the thing I mentioned happening as also having happened while you routinely make “expert”statements about the state of the industry and when pressed for evidence simply repeat the statement with added snark and condescension and no more information to support your claim - I wouldn’t compare the two.

Providing zero proof deserves dismissiveness when you make claims about sales figures.

Jester David wrote:
I don't require people to accept my opinions or tastes. But when people disagree with my opinions in such a way that they're saying my opinions are wrong and theirs are right, of course I'm going to argue back.

We both know that is not an accurate depiction of the arguments you and I have had. Nor is it an accurate depiction of this exchange.

“Jester David” wrote:
"Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a complex and dense game"

I recall that claim. I believe my response was that I found it to be less complex and less dense than PF1, and described my thoughts on it and your response to my opinion was “I repeat, Pathfinder 2nd Edition is complex and dense.”

Surely the measured response of a mature adult who won’t devolve a thread into edition warring.

That said both the topic of Twitter trending and Pathfinder 2 have drifted from the Topic

Liberty's Edge

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dirtypool wrote:
“Jester David” wrote:
"Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a complex and dense game"
I recall that claim. I believe my response was that I found it to be less complex and less dense than PF1, and described my thoughts on it and your response to my opinion was “I repeat, Pathfinder 2nd Edition is complex and dense.”

No, I said that was like saying rocket science is less complex than brain surgery.

Yes, it's comparatively less complex. No, that doesn't mean it's not still complex when compared to almost anything else.

The "anything else" in this case being every other modern game released in the last decade.

Which is what I said then too. And you jumped on the one point you could "well, actually" and ignored the rest. Because you DO just want to prove your opinion right and mine wrong, and that is an accurate description of our exchanges. Especially as every statement you have made here is trying to say I'm wrong.

Screw it. I'm done. You can have these boards. I'm done having to put up with your BS and negativity and bad faith arguing.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

FFS dude, lots of people don’t think that it is as complicated as either rocket science or brain surgery. Lots of players don’t find it overly complex. Lots of players don’t find that the additional options provide nearly as much power creep as you think it does.

I jumped on the one point I could definitively disprove because when someone disagrees with your opinion by presenting their own you dig in, get condescending and lecture them about why your opinion is the objective truth.

My negativity? Every single time we’ve interacted it has been around you using praise of 5e to trash talk PF2e for not being the version of PF2 you hoped it would be.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Jester David wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

I agree that your analysis is correct. These gamers are likely not to go forward into D&D 5.5. This creates a golden opportunity for Paizo (that they will likely choose not to take. :()

Paizo's greatest strengths have always been their Adventure Paths and their Campaign Setting material.

Hardcover rebuilds (just like they did for RotR & CotCT) of Paizo's existing APs setting material into D&D 5E has the potential to steal these (abandoned) gamers back (and thus be a big cash cow for Paizo).

I was always stunned Paizo didn't launch into a line of 5e AP updates as easy money.

Reprinting and updating books where they didn't need to pay for writing or art. Monster books and setting books that just required a minor system rewrite that would likely have sold 10x better than their other products.

It really felt like spite. They were so pissed at WotC for burning them that they avoided doing anything associated with D&D until Kingmaker. (And then sat on that book until it might end up as a DOA release with 5.5 looming.)

Check THIS out! :)

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