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Advice


BLUF: Need advice for my divine spellcaster half.

This time around, I want to try something different from any character I've previously run. I'm usually combat-heavy as a fighter-type, battle mage, monk, or combo of the above.

So this time: elderly (in his 60s), cowardly librarian who only recent left his life-long job in the monastery library for (as yet unwritten plot reasons). I figure to eventually use the mystic theurge prestige class.

For the arcane half I'm thinking wizard (abjuration), for two reasons. (1) The highest he will ever reach in this class is 7th level and for most of the wizard subtypes that means he loses out on his second class ability which most give out at 8th level, and (2) the self-protection aspect fits the character concept.

I didn't go with sorcerer or arcanist because I need to be able to cast 2nd levels spells to qualify for mystic theurge, and both those classes have to wait for caster level 4, as opposed to caster level 3 for a wizard.

For the divine half...I don't think I've ever actually played a cleric class before (excepting paladin) so I'm a little in the dark.

Cloistered Cleric seemed like a good fit for the character concept, but to honest it seems like a pretty underpowered class variant. I wanted a boost to knowledge skills but the loss of spells per level is too much.

So currently I'm defaulting back to the base core rules cleric. Anyone got advice on a different archtype/variant that might work better for this character build?


Just to take it in a different direction, you could look at the Shaman Class. It's a hybrid class of witch and oracle, prepared caster, and still counts as divine. Comes with a spirit animal familiar, functionally similar to the witch's familiar, but with some fun and flavorful spirit choices. I believe lore spirit is one of these that might suit you quite well. Shaman hexes are neat too, though often considered a bit weaker and/or more niche than witch hexes.


For your edification:

A guide to the Mystic Theurge Prestige Class

Sovereign Court

Sysryke wrote:
Just to take it in a different direction, you could look at the Shaman Class. It's a hybrid class of witch and oracle, prepared caster, and still counts as divine. Comes with a spirit animal familiar, functionally similar to the witch's familiar, but with some fun and flavorful spirit choices. I believe lore spirit is one of these that might suit you quite well. Shaman hexes are neat too, though often considered a bit weaker and/or more niche than witch hexes.

Yep, Lore spirit's Arcane Enlightenment can give several Wizard/Sorcerer spells on list. Also several of the FCBs give spells from other lists. Half-elf/Half-Orc/Human/Vanara are Cleric, Gathlain/Ghoran/Vine Leshy are Druid, Shabti is Psychic, and Wayang is Wizard. And Samsarans's Mystic Past Life of course.

I suggest looking into Shaman over Theurge and see if you can get what you want that way.


One thing to consider about the mystic theurge is that your spells for the most part are less powerful than a focused caster. Because you need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in both classes means that your spells are much lower level than a single classed character. If you go with the earliest entry, you will be 7th level when you take your first level of mystic theurge. At this point you are still casting 2nd level spells instead of 4th level spells. You will get a ton of lower-level spells, but you will generally be 2 levels behind in accessing spells. Then to make things worse those classes use different casting stats which mean you have to spilt your stats between INT and WIS. This is going to mean any spells you cast will be very easy to resist. You can reduce this problem a little by focusing one class on spells that do not allow saving throws.

Combining these issues means your combat ability is going to be a lot weaker than a single classed full caster would be. What exactly are you trying to get out of the mystic theurge? Some of the latter full casting classes have pretty diverse spell lists. Witches for example have a lot of spells from the cleric list and their patron spells are also sometimes from other lists. The Shaman is kind of a combination of witch and oracle. You might also want to look at the druid list, they have one of the most diverse spell list of any class. The most of the druids' spells are nature focused but they have a decent number of blasting elemental blasting spells.


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pad300 wrote:

For your edification:

A guide to the Mystic Theurge Prestige Class

In addition to that, see my WIP guide to selecting your classes (and archetypes) for maximizing your effectiveness as a Mystic Theurge.

For your specific needs, if you plan on being an Abjurer wizard (I'd advise not), picking up the Counterspell sub-school might be more in your favor. If you are going to be a cleric, I'd recommend the Separatist archetype to maximize your domain access (and thus spell access).

If you want something more focused, I'd tell you to try an Exploiter Wizard combined with an Ecclesitheurge Cleric, its is the Focused Build #1 on my Combos #1 excel page for the Wizard/Cleric combination. But, I'd suggest a Wizard/Shaman over a Wizard/Cleric if flavor or backstory is malleable.


harbqll wrote:

BLUF: Need advice for my divine spellcaster half.

This time around, I want to try something different from any character I've previously run. I'm usually combat-heavy as a fighter-type, battle mage, monk, or combo of the above.

So this time: elderly (in his 60s), cowardly librarian who only recent left his life-long job in the monastery library for (as yet unwritten plot reasons). I figure to eventually use the mystic theurge prestige class.

For the arcane half I'm thinking wizard (abjuration), for two reasons. (1) The highest he will ever reach in this class is 7th level and for most of the wizard subtypes that means he loses out on his second class ability which most give out at 8th level, and (2) the self-protection aspect fits the character concept.

I didn't go with sorcerer or arcanist because I need to be able to cast 2nd levels spells to qualify for mystic theurge, and both those classes have to wait for caster level 4, as opposed to caster level 3 for a wizard.

For the divine half...I don't think I've ever actually played a cleric class before (excepting paladin) so I'm a little in the dark.

Cloistered Cleric seemed like a good fit for the character concept, but to honest it seems like a pretty underpowered class variant. I wanted a boost to knowledge skills but the loss of spells per level is too much.

So currently I'm defaulting back to the base core rules cleric. Anyone got advice on a different archtype/variant that might work better for this character build?

i see this background and the classes and prestige class dont fit

i suggest it better to be a shaman whit the lore focus + loremaster that will give you a real meaning in the monestic librarian


Firebug wrote:
Sysryke wrote:
Just to take it in a different direction, you could look at the Shaman Class. It's a hybrid class of witch and oracle, prepared caster, and still counts as divine. Comes with a spirit animal familiar, functionally similar to the witch's familiar, but with some fun and flavorful spirit choices. I believe lore spirit is one of these that might suit you quite well. Shaman hexes are neat too, though often considered a bit weaker and/or more niche than witch hexes.

Yep, Lore spirit's Arcane Enlightenment can give several Wizard/Sorcerer spells on list. Also several of the FCBs give spells from other lists. Half-elf/Half-Orc/Human/Vanara are Cleric, Gathlain/Ghoran/Vine Leshy are Druid, Shabti is Psychic, and Wayang is Wizard. And Samsarans's Mystic Past Life of course.

I suggest looking into Shaman over Theurge and see if you can get what you want that way.

It gets overlooked a lot but Lore makes a great main spirit. You can still take Arcane Enlightenment as a wandering hex and you have the freedom to pick whatever you want for a wandering spirit. A lot of people miss that your wandering hex can come from your main spirit.


harbqll wrote:

BLUF: Need advice for my divine spellcaster half.

This time around, I want to try something different from any character I've previously run. I'm usually combat-heavy as a fighter-type, battle mage, monk, or combo of the above.

So this time: elderly (in his 60s), cowardly librarian who only recent left his life-long job in the monastery library for (as yet unwritten plot reasons). I figure to eventually use the mystic theurge prestige class.

...

okay - I'm going to suggest you DO NOT START your venture into spellcasting with Mystic Theurge. You need to be rather familiar with the spells and how magic interacts to take advantage of them. Spellcasters are loophole specialists or simple blasters(Sor/Evocation), buffers, or summoners(ucSummoner/Conjuration). Illusion and Enchantment are GM/campaign dependent due to various rulings. You are jumping in to a support spellcaster with suppressed casting levels & DCs that relies on spamming a bunch of spells.

I'd suggest something easier and durable with some combat options like a Monk(Flowing) 2, Magical Knack(Magic), Wayang Spellhunter(Region), or Resilient(Combat) traits, then Wizard(Diviner or Conjurer)(BO:Amulet, avoid Familiars). That'll give you +3 to ALL your saves, martial prowess(always armed, monk weapons, decent defense maneuvers, possibly Def Cmbt Training{may be retrained}), Evasion, Tonfa, Cestus, Gladius(shortsword), and ye olde crossbows. Then you start with the magic. You'll love Long Arm and Flowing monks Redirection, when have you heard a Wizard say Please Charge Me! Of course the downside is good overall ability scores (is that a problem?). INT then DEX, WIS ≥12, STR ≥10. If you can swing Samsaran then poach Witch spells 2@1, 1@2, 1@3... otherwise Aasimar (better scores) or Human(free Feat, skills & HPs).
+> Diviner has buffs for initiative & surprise, insight bonuses. Of course take school focus in something else like Evocation. 8^)
+> Conjuration has dimensional slide. You'll also need school focus Conj and Augment Summoning.
Upgrade your amulet into an Aegis of Recovery, then go for Amulet of Spell Mastery later.

If you want to try Divine first I'd say Shaman(Lore) or Oracle(Battle). They're pretty much straight up builds. You could take Paladin to increase durability but its not really necessary. Rogue 2 will give you skill points and Evasion.


Azothath wrote:
harbqll wrote:

BLUF: Need advice for my divine spellcaster half.

This time around, I want to try something different from any character I've previously run. I'm usually combat-heavy as a fighter-type, battle mage, monk, or combo of the above.

So this time: elderly (in his 60s), cowardly librarian who only recent left his life-long job in the monastery library for (as yet unwritten plot reasons). I figure to eventually use the mystic theurge prestige class.

...

okay - I'm going to suggest you DO NOT START your venture into spellcasting with Mystic Theurge. You need to be rather familiar with the spells and how magic interacts to take advantage of them. Spellcasters are loophole specialists or simple blasters(Sor/Evocation), buffers, or summoners(ucSummoner/Conjuration). Illusion and Enchantment are GM/campaign dependent due to various rulings. You are jumping in to a support spellcaster with suppressed casting levels & DCs that relies on spamming a bunch of spells.

I'd suggest something easier and durable with some combat options like a Monk(Flowing) 2, Magical Knack(Magic), Wayang Spellhunter(Region), or Resilient(Combat) traits, then Wizard(Diviner or Conjurer)(BO:Amulet, avoid Familiars). That'll give you +3 to ALL your saves, martial prowess(always armed, monk weapons, decent defense maneuvers, possibly Def Cmbt Training{may be retrained}), Evasion, Tonfa, Cestus, Gladius(shortsword), and ye olde crossbows. Then you start with the magic. You'll love Long Arm and Flowing monks Redirection, when have you heard a Wizard say Please Charge Me! Of course the downside is good overall ability scores (is that a problem?). INT then DEX, WIS ≥12, STR ≥10. If you can swing Samsaran then poach Witch spells 2@1, 1@2, 1@3... otherwise Aasimar (better scores) or Human(free Feat, skills & HPs).
+> Diviner has buffs...

sry but ppl need to experience new tipe of classes and game play if ppl always play te samee tipe of game they will get bored before te game start, the wizard class must have some sinergy game stile whit the god he is choosing example if his god is gorum i suggest go for wizard transmuter, if is nethys go general or divination


Firebug wrote:
Sysryke wrote:
Just to take it in a different direction, you could look at the Shaman Class. It's a hybrid class of witch and oracle, prepared caster, and still counts as divine. Comes with a spirit animal familiar, functionally similar to the witch's familiar, but with some fun and flavorful spirit choices. I believe lore spirit is one of these that might suit you quite well. Shaman hexes are neat too, though often considered a bit weaker and/or more niche than witch hexes.

Yep, Lore spirit's Arcane Enlightenment can give several Wizard/Sorcerer spells on list. Also several of the FCBs give spells from other lists. Half-elf/Half-Orc/Human/Vanara are Cleric, Gathlain/Ghoran/Vine Leshy are Druid, Shabti is Psychic, and Wayang is Wizard. And Samsarans's Mystic Past Life of course.

I suggest looking into Shaman over Theurge and see if you can get what you want that way.

Good points, but I meant to suggest the shaman as an alternative to cleric on the way to Mystic Theurge, not as a total replacement.


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the problem for him to not choose the shaman is because of the background he put ¨the monastery¨, shaman are like cleric of the wilds/savage so its not fit the part of the monastery which is more civilized

Sovereign Court

Zepheri wrote:
the problem for him to not choose the shaman is because of the background he put ¨the monastery¨, shaman are like cleric of the wilds/savage so its not fit the part of the monastery which is more civilized

Yeah, because "Lore" and "Slums" spirits scream "Nature".


Or Tribe. Or Battle. Or Ancestors.

Furthermore, a monastery is just a place where religious people live seperate from others. A bunch of Druids living in tree houses together to revere and get more in touch with the nature that grants them their powers would classify as a monastery!


Really, the only lore about shaman is that they talk to “spirits”. That’s super vague, which is what you want out of a base class. They could talk to nature spirits, but they can also talk to city spirits or knowledge spirits. There are enough spirits to go around.

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