What are your favorite guns, and why?


Advice

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Hmm, if you release a hand without spending the action to switch to one handed, wouldn't it work like a typical 2 handed gun? I don't see how it would work differently.

I would think so. Isn't that what I said?

Or are people saying that you can be in 1-hand hold of a 2-handed ranged weapon, Reload, and then end up in 2-hand wield of the weapon?

That seems wrong to me because the Reload rule says

Reload wrote:
Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
And I'm pretty sure that this entire sentence was added so that it is possible to reload a 2-hand ranged weapon without it taking 3+ actions to do so - by allowing you to use one of the hands you use to wield the weapon.
Ok. I think we're all on the same page. Just got lost along the way. If you never switch to one handed, you don't need to change your tactics. If you want to use both modes, you do need to spend an action switching modes regardless of the reload rules.

Well, I think the issue is if you are holding the Jezail in a two handed grip. You release for some reason, but don’t switch grips. (So now you have the Jezail in one hand, but not in a firing grip, so it is useless, not being wielded) can you then, in one action, reload and resume a functional 2 handed fatal aim grip. I think no, the fatal aim rule prohibits it.

If that is allowed, no reason you couldn’t use that to switch to a 1handed grip with a reload, rules are the same. If you don’t have it in the firing grip you want, you need to spend an interact, can’t sneak it with reload.

That being said, the rule could be cleaned up a bit to make that really clear one way or the other (Errata candidate?)


CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Hmm, if you release a hand without spending the action to switch to one handed, wouldn't it work like a typical 2 handed gun? I don't see how it would work differently.

I would think so. Isn't that what I said?

Or are people saying that you can be in 1-hand hold of a 2-handed ranged weapon, Reload, and then end up in 2-hand wield of the weapon?

That seems wrong to me because the Reload rule says

Reload wrote:
Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
And I'm pretty sure that this entire sentence was added so that it is possible to reload a 2-hand ranged weapon without it taking 3+ actions to do so - by allowing you to use one of the hands you use to wield the weapon.
Ok. I think we're all on the same page. Just got lost along the way. If you never switch to one handed, you don't need to change your tactics. If you want to use both modes, you do need to spend an action switching modes regardless of the reload rules.

Well, I think the issue is if you are holding the Jezail in a two handed grip. You release for some reason, but don’t switch grips. (So now you have the Jezail in one hand, but not in a firing grip, so it is useless, not being wielded) can you then, in one action, reload and resume a functional 2 handed fatal aim grip. I think no, the fatal aim rule prohibits it.

If that is allowed, no reason you couldn’t use that to switch to a 1handed grip with a reload, rules are the same. If you don’t have it in the firing grip you want, you need to spend an interact, can’t sneak it with reload.

That being said, the rule could be cleaned up a bit to make that really clear one way or the other (Errata candidate?)

I don't see how the fatal aim trait effects the reload rules if you're not interacting with the fatal aim trait. It should be treated like any other 2 handed gun if you don't plan on one handing it. If you release a hand on any 2 handed gun it becomes useless until you regrip it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Because it allows cheese that gets around the limitation of the weapon.

Example. You want to switch from 2h to 1h? Normally it takes an action right? Well, when it is time to reload, just release, then reload into a 1handed grip, which is allowed by reloads "to then place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon"

As people were saying above, why is the Jezail better than the others? Because this it the limitation. If you want to do free hand stuff, it has a drawback.


aobst128 wrote:
I don't see how the fatal aim trait effects the reload rules if you're not interacting with the fatal aim trait.

Indeed. If we need to debate this, let's at least debate what we disagree on.

Which is the Reload rule. (Not the trait, the trait isn't what gives the regrip for free)

Reload wrote:
Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.

The question is, can you still get the free regrip to wield the weapon if you didn't use the first part - changing to a 1-hand hold to start the reload process?

And we can discuss that using the Flintlock Musket.

I rule that you can't regrip the weapon for free if you weren't wielding it 2-handed to begin with when you started doing a reload. The two free actions are linked. You use the first one and then you get the other.

It is a bit unclear. But if it is not run that way, then you are effectively sneaking an additional action in edge cases when compared to a 2-handed melee weapon like a Greatsword. Because making two strikes with a 2-handed melee weapon costs two actions, but making two strikes with a 2-handed reload 1 weapon like the Flintlock Musket costs three actions because of the reload. So that is the intended balance point between the two. One additional action spent on reload for an unloaded weapon. So doing a free action release, Battle Medicine, Strike doesn't work with either weapon. For the melee weapon, you have to spend an action re-gripping as 2-handed. For a loaded Flintlock Musket it would be the same - Release, Battle Medicine, Regrip, Strike when no reload needed.

But for an unloaded Flintlock Musket, the balance point should still require one additional action compared to a 2-handed melee weapon. So Release, Battle Medicine, Reload, Strike shouldn't work - it is short the additional action needed for reload 1 weapons. And the action that is missing is the Regrip. It should be: Release, Battle Medicine, Reload, Regrip, Strike. That puts it back into the proper action count balanced for a 2-handed reload 1 weapon compared to a 2-handed melee weapon.


CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Because it allows cheese that gets around the limitation of the weapon.

Example. You want to switch from 2h to 1h? Normally it takes an action right? Well, when it is time to reload, just release, then reload into a 1handed grip, which is allowed by reloads "to then place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon"

As people were saying above, why is the Jezail better than the others? Because this it the limitation. If you want to do free hand stuff, it has a drawback.

I don't see that being the case with my interpretation since you still haven't spent the action to change modes. It remains 2 handed. No cheese is suggested.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
I don't see how the fatal aim trait effects the reload rules if you're not interacting with the fatal aim trait.

Indeed. If we need to debate this, let's at least debate what we disagree on.

Which is the Reload rule. (Not the trait, the trait isn't what gives the regrip for free)

Reload wrote:
Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.

The question is, can you still get the free regrip to wield the weapon if you didn't use the first part - changing to a 1-hand hold to start the reload process?

And we can discuss that using the Flintlock Musket.

I rule that you can't regrip the weapon for free if you weren't wielding it 2-handed to begin with when you started doing a reload. The two free actions are linked. You use the first one and then you get the other.

It is a bit unclear. But if it is not run that way, then you are effectively sneaking an additional action in edge cases when compared to a 2-handed melee weapon like a Greatsword. Because making two strikes with a 2-handed melee weapon costs two actions, but making two strikes with a 2-handed reload 1 weapon like the Flintlock Musket costs three actions because of the reload. So that is the intended balance point between the two. One additional action spent on reload for an unloaded weapon. So doing a free action release, Battle Medicine, Strike doesn't work with either weapon. For the melee weapon, you have to spend an action re-gripping as 2-handed. For a loaded Flintlock Musket it would be the same - Release, Battle Medicine, Regrip, Strike when no reload needed.

But for an unloaded Flintlock Musket, the balance point should still require one additional action compared to a 2-handed melee weapon. So Release, Battle Medicine, Reload, Strike shouldn't work - it is...

I consider it a fair benefit for using a 2handed ranger weapon with reload. After all, a 1handed sword is a double die bump over a 1hander for swords, but only a single die bump for a gun.

Also, it doesn’t really make sense that you can release and regrip but can’t just regrip. That and the text of fatal aim seems to suggest that regripping is part of a reload.


No, Fatal Aim is specifically saying Reload can't switch between its 2h and 1.5h grips. (It's not actually ever a 1h weapon - there are restrictions on the off hand, it's more of a 1+ like bows are)


Dubious Scholar wrote:
No, Fatal Aim is specifically saying Reload can't switch between its 2h and 1.5h grips. (It's not actually ever a 1h weapon - there are restrictions on the off hand, it's more of a 1+ like bows are)

Yes. If you are using the 1-hand wield option, then you already have a hand free to do the reload with. The restriction in the Fatal Aim trait is specifically to prevent you from switching from the 2-hand wield to the 1-hand wield for free by doing a Reload. I have to assume that the intent is also to prevent you from switching from a 1-hand carry to a 1-hand wield by using Reload too.

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