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Notice: The following is a combination of mechanical analysis and personal opinions about the mechanics and the directions Paizo Publishing may or may not be heading in. In many cases I will probably sound sarcastic in some of my examples while drawing attention to the mechanical issues surrounding the class. If you're one of the designers, I apologize if it offends you, but I am trying to help. Perhaps enjoy what bits of humor I try to portray, and consider the reasons behind it. This is partially an opinion post as well as a mechanical post.
Introduction: So we're now playtesting the Gunslinger and by proxy the possibility for new firearm rules in Pathfinder. While some have specified that we are not playtesting firearms, I feel that's perhaps an unintentional lie. When dealing with a class of weaponry so ingrained into the very being of a class, you cannot help but to also playtest and report on the effects of those weapons; because those very weapons will have a significant impact on how the class plays in many facets of the game (within the world, within combat, and within the classes). Because of this, this post will touch on the presented firearms rules frequently and will be considering them as part of the playtest ('cause unless Paizo wants us to actually playtest the class with bows, crossbows, and throwing darts, it's going to have to be).
The Gunslinger: The Ultimate Combat playtest document describes the gunslinger as a fighter variant in the Role section of the class description; and I too will be comparing them primarily to Fighters, Rangers, Bards, and Rogues for my evaluation.
Mechanical Breakdown: Looking over the gunslinger, we can see the 'slinger has stats comparable to martial characters (almost mimicing the Fighter completely, barring the swapped Fortitude and Reflex). For mechanical abilities we get an interesting "Grit" mechanic which is similar to a monk's Ki-Pool in its "I got points to spend" system, which is a mixed bag as far as both interest and effectiveness goes. I'll discuss some of these abilities at length.
Grit: I like the grit system. Much like the monk's ki-pool, or perhaps the rage points from the playtest barbarian, I like having spendable resources that you can regain through rest and/or other methods. Grit seems like a pretty cool mechanic, as it has the the potential to regain quickly under the right circumstances, while also being a very limited resource. At 1st level, it seems unlikely that the gunslinger would be able to support a very high wisdom modifier under the standard ability array due to needing a decent dexterity, at least average strength (while bullets & powder doses are not given a weight (yet), pistols are 4lbs each, muskets 9lbs, light armor is around 20 lbs, etc), and will need a good constitution given the range at which he seems to be designed to fight at.
My biggest issue with Grit is determining how it's regained.
1) The first method is confirming critical hits. Guns have a very poor critical chance (but very high damage multiplier) and thus relying on critical hits for refueling your grit is pointless, as you will likely have less than a 1/20 chance of actually recovering grit in this manner (counting the confirmation roll); with improved critical being marginally better.
2) The second method is reducing enemies to 0 hp or less in combat, which is decent and would make the gunslinger seem really nice when you're fighting multiple worthless enemies (such as a swarm of 3 hp kobolds), since theoretically you'd be getting grit back really fast; but this grit recovery method slows down rapidly versus anything with decent hit points, or anything you're fighting past 3rd level. As-is, the gunslinger is definitely not a damage dealer, and enemy hit points scale far faster than their damage potential at any given level; so we have a mechanic for regaining grit that will get progressively less useful and/or worse as you gain levels. That's a very bad thing. As you gain levels you should become noticeably better than you were before, but instead you will become progressively worse when fighting enemies your level.
This is similar to my beef with the World of Warcraft decision to make all spells require a % of your "base mana" to cast; and their diminishing returns mechanics for armor and critical chance; which work in that game, but I'd really rather not see it here - especially since even keeping at the cutting edge of equipment (what it's intended to encourage in WoW) won't even work for this.
3) The third, and probably my least favorite, is the very vague mechanic that basically says be a daredevil and take unneeded risks. Sorry, it may just be me, but I really dislike mechanics that encourage PCs to be reckless. Reckless and brave are two very, very different things. As written, the current mechanic is far too reliant on GM fiat to decide whether something was a daring act, and it encourages the gunslinger to take risks where other alternatives may be present. Every gamer knows someone who would think this means gunslingers should really try to jump a chasm when there's already a bridge there.
Basically, it's subject to problems because the mechanic will vary wildly in its usefulness from GM to GM, and also encourages the gunslinger to take unneeded risks, which is bad for both himself and the party that he's supposedly a part of.
This is also another mechanic that gets worse as you level. D&D/Pathfinder characters routinely break the laws of physics and mundane heroism by 5th level; and they get far and far more powerful and skilled as they grow. Again, this means that daring acts become harder to preform as you become more skilled. If you were leave your skills really poor, so as to have a 50% or worse chance of succeeding, you could perhaps qualify for a daring act; but actually becoming better at something will make it progressively more difficult to recover Grit; requiring more and more extreme acts to recover Grit. This can also lead to situations where two gunslingers preforming the exact same act of heroism will and won't get rewarded for it; because if the gunslinger A has a +5 modifier, and Gunslinger B has a +3 modifier, then Gunslinger B could qualify for a point while Gunslinger A doesn't. Too bad Gunslinger A took Skill Focus (Acrobatics) to dive through enemies, guns blazing; it would be better if he stumbled through combat like a moron! That's more daring, right?
Possible Solution: While it may seem less boring, allowing a gunslinger to regain grit by expending an action, or preforming some particular action could keep a flair and style without leaving the gunslinger's grit regeneration up to chance and GM-Fiat.
Some ideas include awarding a point of grit each time the gunslinger preforms a successful Intimidate check in combat (to inflict the shaken condition); which would encourage them to keep their skills up. It could also be written so as to function with Dazzling Display to recover large quantities of Grit (since the most grit you will probably able to hold at once is 10; assuming you're wisdom-focused and invested in +5 inherent and +5-6 enhancements).
You could also give a selection of deeds that don't cost grit, but instead generate them. Minor abilities that you use when you're not using your grit, that also recharge your grit. Similar to preforming a combo. Say a standard action shot that deals weapon damage + 1/2 level * 1d6 damage and awards 1 grit if the attack hits (best case scenario, this would deal about 1d8+27+10d6 or an average of 66.5 damage, which is low damage per round for that level, but you'd get grit and could move). By giving a few standard-action actions that you use when not burning grit, and awarding grit for them; you could create a way to encourage using different abilities and using your grit points for more powerful options (such as save vs stunning, etc).
This path could potentially mean that while the gunslinger wouldn't be a strait damage dealer (such as archery based fighters), the gunslinger would be more of a skirmisher and/or trick-fighter, surprising foes with mobility and crazy stunts when she decides to use her grit.
Deeds: Much to my disappointment, most of the deeds that a gunslinger has seem very underwhelming; especially for abilities that require you to spend a resource to use. More annoyingly, a lot of them seem to just be trying to keep guns from being so mechanically horrible. In 3.5, this was akin to the problem with the Soul-Knife; as it could be described as "Her class ability is having a sub-par weapon".
Leap For Cover: I cannot help but think this would be a cool ability if you didn't have to spend Grit on it. As is, you're wasting a resource for something that will probably hurt you. Ok, so you throw yourself prone for a +4 AC vs ranged attacks in reaction to a ranged attack. Good job. However, the range of your favorite weapon is only around 20-60ft (assuming base, distance, and distance + Far Shot). In the vast majority of encounters, this is going to hurt you more than it helps. You gained a +4 vs the guy that shot at you, but now you've pretty much said "please, whack me a lot" to anyone even close to melee range; since being prone makes it difficult to move, and you have horrible reload times, and you provoke attacks for shooting, and you provoke attacks for standing.
Likewise, unless you're fighting another gunslinger, the odds of them just shooting at you from a distance greater than your range is pretty good (heck, a sling shooter will beat you on this) and you now making it require more actions to close the distance with you; giving them more time to shoot at you.
Maybe if this ability allowed you to actually move in reaction, such as gaining the AC bonus (or concealment vs ranged attacks for 1 round) as you were dodge-rolling out of the away would be cool. Doubly so if it allowed you to do so without provoking attacks; or allowing you to avoid the first shot if you were within your base speed to something that provides cover (such as a human with an overturned table within 30ft, or ducking behind the bar as an immediate action) would be much cooler and much more useful.
As is, this ability is questionable tactically, and it also seems like waste of your interesting Grit resource.
Deadeye: Now we're getting into my #1 beef with this class. Deadeye is the first of the gunslinger's (many) abilities that, instead of being something unique and awesome, instead revolves around just making a bad weapon average. Deadeye requires you to spend grit to gain the one benefit that guns provide at a reasonable distance.
Basically, you can spend 1 grit point per 20ft for a pistol, or 40ft for a musket, to make a single shot as a touch attack. Basically, this could be pretty useful against enemies whose AC is so high that you can't hit them; but in most cases it seems like this would be a waste. It could have some uses with Deadly Aim, and perhaps for trying to avoid enemies with reach weapons, but to me it mostly seems like you're trying to make up for the very bad and overpriced weapons you've decided to try and use.
This is actually one of the more colorful abilities that they receive; but given their abysmal rate of fire, poor damage output, and poor range; it seems more like something to just sink Grit into when you've hit your current cap and think you can generate more.
Quick-Clear: Even worse than the last one, this ability basically revolves around spending your limited grit to attempt to overcome a huge drawback on an already poor weapon. On any other class, this would read more like this:
"Perfect Notching (Ex): Spend 1 Awesome Point to load an arrow into your bow and not shoot yourself in the eye with it, or accidentally snap your bow in half for using it for its intended purpose."
Sorry, why not actually give the gunslinger abilities instead of giving them horrible weapons, then giving them ways to pretend they're real weapons? Why not make an ability that actually does something? If we had revolvers (like the standard 5 shot revolver in the Golarion campaign setting book), you could have quick-load cylinders (pre-loaded rounds that you slid into the gun as a move action) that you could load a swift action. That way you'd "quick-clear" the chambers and then reload the gun in the same motion.
At least that would seem kind of cool. Salvaging this ability seems a lost cause though, because really this misfire nonsense needs to be dropped from the weapons entirely; instead of wasting class abilities trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
Pistol Whip: Oh my gross, this ability is so bad. Ok, so I have simple and martial proficiency and thus could be completely comfortable wearing some spiked gauntlets while wielding my guns, but you want me to spend grit AND a standard action to whack something with my gun? For real? I'm trading 1 resource point for a 0 gp club or a greatclub (if a two-handed firearm) which I can only hit with one per round?
Exactly why am I a gunslinger again? O.o
Gunslinger Initiative: While I would have liked to see it named something like sixth sense, that's purely semantic and has nothing to do with the class. This ability is pretty nice. A +2 bonus to initiative is a good thing, and it doesn't require us to burn our Grit to take advantage of it (hallelujah!).
My only problem with this ability is that the quick draw things seem amazingly redundant. It basically says you can begin the initiative with guns drawn if the guns weren't concealed, and you have the Quick-Draw feat. I'm wondering "Why?". The moment your turn comes around, if you have the Quickdraw feat and nonconcealed guns you can draw as many as you can hold as a free action. Seems amazingly redundant. Likewise, drawing them prior to your turn doesn't seem to do much except make them juicy targets for disarming and sundering by those who go before you do.
This COULD have been a useful feature for a warrior-class that has Combat Reflexes, since it could mean you could be ready to make AoOs before you took your first turn to draw your weapon, but as is it doesn't seem to make any sense mechanically and seems to serve no real purpose. Otherwise seems fine; though perhaps making it equal to 2 + Grit would make it nicer.
Covering Shot: This is kind of a cool ability. Immediate action to entangle a foe that you just missed; but you can't choose to miss. This seems kind of odd to me, since it's impossible to intentionally provide cover fire, which doesn't make any sense in my head. When I think of cover-fire, I think of people firing shots just to keep something pinned down, not trying to shoot them and then failing and making them have trouble moving.
Besides the odd mechanics, I suppose this isn't terrible. Seems like it's a bit underpowered. You have to expend grit, an immediate action, and you have to miss (deal no damage), and thus the worse you are at shooting the better this ability could conceivably be. You can't do it when you'd want to, which severely cuts down the usefulness of this ability.
I guess this might seem like a nice option if you miss an opponent, as something of a consolation, but it just rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't seem terribly useful, and again it seems to encourage not being good; since as your base attack rises (at the fastest rate in the game) you will be able to provide "cover fire" less and less often; and that just seems bogus.
Not to sound like a revolver fan, but really I'd prefer seeing a weapon that you could rapid-fire or "fan" to provide an Area of Effect debuff that required a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 'slinger level + dexterity modifier) or become Entangled; or perhaps forcing those in the area to act as though they were in rough terrain for 1 round; regardless of their actual terrain.
In either case it seems it would be better for emulating the "You go on, I'll cover you" feel this seems to be going for, while also making more sense mechanically; I think.
Targeting: I have to say that almost all called shot systems are bad-news. This is the exception. I actually like the basis of this system, as it is mild and doesn't seem abusive (and doesn't involve blowing off limbs and/or killing things outright).
I do think that some of the effects are a bit too good. A combat maneuver check would probably be in order; since as-is, the ability to force people to drop their weapons and shields for hitting them with no way to resist it is hugely overpowered. You will definitely piss off the guy who invested in Improved Disarm.
I'm also inclined to think that the increased threat range should probably be for the "head shot", instead of the torso (even my 12 yo brother thought that made no sense). Sure, one can argue that you have all your important organs bound up nicely in your torso; but as my 12 yo brother said, "well a headshot shuts down all those organs". Likewise, people associated firearms + "headshot" with "Holy crap, ouch, damage!", not "I shall wander confused for 1 round". Really the 1 round confusion feels really random, and seems to be implying brain damage in a nonsensical way.
Like with the disarming, the instantly knocking prone thing also seems like it should require a combat maneuver check. As it is, it will instantly knock everything from a pixie to a great gold wyrm to the ground with a single shot, no sweat or way to resist it. This can be excessively abusive if you have multiple gunslingers to "stun-lock" a single enemy.
Otherwise, I think as far as called shots go, this is at least not terrible.
Bleeding Wound: I support this ability. This one is pretty cool, and useful. I'm not sure that it should cause strength or dexterity bleed (if it will, I think Deadly Stroke should be revised, because it's much harder to actually preform and should allow for the same), but this is a cool ability. No complaints here, honestly.
Utility Shots: These come way too late, and most of them are just bad. Seriously, you don't get access to these until 11th level; so while other characters are doing things meaningful, you're just starting to learn how to do things that you realistically should have been doing around level 1-4 (since many of these "utility shots" are entirely mundane).
Blast Lock: What the heck man? This ability is horrible. Did you seriously have to wait 'till 11th level to try shooting a lock off of a door? Gross. Worst yet, if you fail at shooting off the lock, the party's rogue is going to be annoyed because you just increased the DC to open it by 10, and apparently made the door sturdier too! Wow, good job Sure-shot! Meanwhile, we could have just let the fighter cut the damn thing off with his adamantine dagger, or let the 11th level wizard sneeze out a knock spell.
Shoot Unattended Object: Ok, we've struggled to 11th level to be able to shoot a can 15ft away from us without breaking it. Woopti-do! While your party's fighter is doing something useful like destroying wyverns in a single round or carving a tunnel through a granite mountain with an adamantine longsword, and your wizard friend is teleporting and turning people into granite to be carved through by your fighter's adamantine longsword, you're doing more tricks that really belong in the 1st-4th level range. "Hey, I can kind of do this non-magic mage-hand thing; except I can push the item away from us; so I can't do anything cool like grab keys or bring something to me, and it's a very short range, and if I roll a 1 I break my gun and also break the tiny object. Don't I have such a cool legendary ability?"
Stop Bleeding: Oh my dangit, the gross abilities just don't stop coming. Why is this an 11th level ability? A standard action, 11 gp worth of ammo, the need to reload you gun, and all to end a condition that could have been stopped with a DC 15 heal check or casting cure light wounds on someone? Really? REALLY!? *sighs*
Let's not even get into the poor wording of the ability...actually, no, let's do just that. As written, it seems that you shoot the target, except you don't shoot the target, and you press the barrel against their wound, but you don't. Is this a touch-range effect? Why does it say the bullet doesn't damage the target; are you actually shooting them? What's going on here?
Startling Shot: This ability isn't terrible. Again it seems to reward people missing in combat, which seems odd; but just looking at its effect I guess it's alright if you have a rogue in your party; but this punishing people for having a good armor class and/or evasive abilities seems backwards. Really, I think it should be on a successful hit; 'cause why would being "not-hit" be any more startling or upsetting to your combat routine than actually being shot? Not buying it.
Expert Loading: Yay, the abilities get worse and worse. We now have your 15th level ability that says "I still have a sucky weapon, and I'm still tryng to pretend I don't". Instead of actually getting a real ability, you're getting an ability that lets you spend your limited resources to stop your multi-million dollar weapon from blowing itself up every 1/20 times you shoot it. Hurray. *barf*
Stunning Shot: What an amazing near-capstone. You can spend a resource on something you normally would gain a resource on to inflict the stunned condition on a foe that isn't immune to critical hits and all that. That seems amazingly similar to Stunning Fist and Stunning Critical except both less reliable and less impressive.
Deadly Shot: Perhaps the only ability of the gunslinger that's actually worth something that I can tell is Deadly Shot. I'm a bit annoyed that the design team decided to remove most save or die effects from the game, such as slay living, finger of death, and wail of the banshee for all intents and purposes (when those effects were fine) and then offer something like this. Ok, so each time I get a critical hit, I can spend a grit point and force a saving throw with a likely DC of around 30 or kill the target outright; wow, super-awesome-sauce.
And it's a death effect no less; so strangely deathward provides a +4 save bonus against it and it also prevents resurrection. That's odd; exactly why does shooting someone with a mundane bullet prevent raise dead from working on them?
I really hope you plan to bring back stuff like finger of death and wail of the banshee as save or die effects when this gets published, because that's twisted guys. Those spells, which target the most buff-able saving throw in the game (fortitude), and which are easily countered by mid-levels, deal less damage than a fighter's full-attack routine in a single round, and they're subject to spell resistance and the like, were supposedly nerfed because SoDs are too powerful and/or nasty; but we're giving the Gunslinger a DC 30 nonmagical save or die death effect on every critical hit she lands?
Compare to the bard's capstone death song?
Gun Training: More abilities that just try to make guns suck a little less than they do. This post is getting really long, and you may be able to tell I'm getting progressively less interested in these repeating themes of "my weapon doesn't suck, honest! Really, I can be cool!" abilities.
True Grit: This would be interesting if there was something worth using grit on besides Deadly Shot. Uninteresting and mechanically "meh".
I think we need to go back to the drawing board guys.
Next Post
My next post will be a breakdown of the Gunslinger vs core classes, and an in-depth look at the firearm mechanics, pricing, and how they affect the gunslinger.
EDIT: I wanted to apologize if the post sounds a bit mean spirited or overly sarcastic. I was going through each ability and writing it up and describing it during my review, and I was becoming progressively less enchanted by the class and more and more critical of it. Since I know the designers do read these boards, I apologize if I came off as harsh. It wasn't my intention; so sorry if I was knocking your mechanics too fiercely.
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Just because I've become obsessed with saying +1...
x3 multiplier!
All the points you hit on were ideas of my own. I'm just not very good at vocalizing (or in this case textualizing) my thoughts and opinions. Thank you for doing so on my behalf (even though you didn't know you were). I still standby my original thought with the Grit Mechanic, however, needing to be more tailored to something akin to Alchemist Discoveries or Magus Arcanas. The only thing not mentioned.
I like everything that was said.
I think the reason why grit would work better as discoveries is this should be an alchemist alternate class.
I'll also say that the dev's reasonings for "my weapons stinks, and here are my abilites to make my weapon stink less" is because, they want just that. a Gun that is incredibly hard to use by someone not overly trained in it, but could, theoretically still be fired by a non gunsligner.
I would have done it as an alchemist (oh have i said that a dozen times already) but the intent is similar.
Im not sure the reasoning for the gunslinger being a fighter with access to all martial weapons.
At most this looks like something crying out to multi class (gunslinger/rogue, slinger/magus, slinger/alchemist, etc) and doesnt seem to be something that would be carried all 20 levels, which has been the intent to encourage players to do since the beta version of the game.
I am really beginning to think i agree with people, the gunsligner is dangerously close to a full re-write.
In case you didn't know, my vote would be for it re-written as an alchemist alternate class (just a side note)
Just to jump in - killing enemies doesn't raise your grit.
The only time it does is your first kill of the day.
Just to jump in - killing enemies doesn't raise your grit.
The only time it does is your first kill of the day.
It would be better if it was 1st enemy killed per hour. That means you get a decent benefit for fighting more than once/day.
I also agree with the OP’s well spoken statements, especially the part about increasing the critical multiplier (which is the most friendly idea yet). The one thing I’d like to disagree with is the use of the “Leap for Cover” Ability, it actually has a very good use (though obviously to take full advantage of it one needs a rifle or crossbow) it just requires some terrain.
If you have Cover it can be pretty unfair, especially if you reduce the cost to only needing to ‘have’ a point of Grit in you pool over actually using said point.
Also, since you seem pretty level-headed, I ask here if you think the way to make firearms (and crossbows too) better weapons without the need for screwy special rules is to make them the only weapons that get equipment bonuses?
Examples:
Scope: Cost: 1,000 gold (that’s the same as a Spyglass). When secured on a firearm or crossbow (requiring a successful Knowledge [Engineering] check DC5 and 10 minutes to assemble and adjust) you increase the range of the weapon by one-half, added after all other attributes that effect range (Example: The Distance weapon enchantment). When using a Scope you also gain a +4 to Perception rolls against distant targets. Removing a scope takes half the time it does to put it on: 5 minutes.
Advanced Iron-Sights: 200 gold (not set price). Improving the irons-sights of either crossbows or firearms requires the weapon to either be built with it before hand (adding +5 to the Craft DC) or be modified after construction (requiring a successful Craft [Weaponsmith] DC 15, failure means another check is required and the weapon gains the Broken condition until fixed). A weapon with improved Iron-sights gain a +2 to all ranged attacks rolls.
(Additionally: For an additional 600 gold and a successful Craft check (with a +10 to the DC) you may increase the bonus to all ranged attacks to +4)
Having this be something based on the Alchemist would also make sense with handling the gunpowder.
I agree the mechanic of 'miss to achieve something cool'is sub-optimal. If you have a thief with spring attack facing a heavily armored fighter the gunslinger could shoot at the fighter and be more likely to miss so the fighter was entangled each round thus protecting the thief from the fighter while he got his SA damage in. If the fighter were tripped it would be even more effective as the 'entangle effect' of the missed shot would make it very difficult for the fighter to stand up again.
Maybe make Covering Fire add 1 round to the Intimidate: Demoralize effect so, if successful, the foe is demoralized for at least two rounds with the 5 greater than needed working to add to that.
Just to jump in - killing enemies doesn't raise your grit.
The only time it does is your first kill of the day.
Y'know, I missed that part somehow when I was checking my review notes. That makes it even worse. Grit sucks completely right now. Q.Q
I enjoy your concept of improving the standard sights on a firearm, though admittedly the 'advanced' Iron sights name could be replaced by simply 'Iron Sights' as most traditional firearms as they came to be known had nearly no means with which to aim with the firearm other than to look down the barrel and pray to hit.
True, I was trying to word it so the inevitable revolvers and rifles wouldn’t be left out (we all know they'll be there in one form or another), and it was also just an example of a better way of making firearms useful and unique without spoony (and controversial rules). I also wrote it up so that it benefits crossbows too, as people are quick to say that ‘they don’t get nice things’ and most things that apply to early firearms can also be applied to crossbows.
…though that does remind me of a crossbow that actually shoots bullets…
However as was mentioned above in the initial post, the pistol whip ability definitely needs reworking, though truthfully I believe the pistol whipping and rifle butting should be an acceptable action no matter what the situation, I believe that the mechanic as it is known now needs to simply be that 'if you manage to hit an opponent successfully with the butt/handle of your firearm, you may spend one grit point to immediately make a trip/disarm attempt on your opponent without suffering an attack of opportunity.'
Would make sense, no?.
Yes, or perhaps a simpler example should say something more along the lines of:
Pistol-whip (Ex): At 3rd level, a gunfighter can make melee attacks with their firearms treating them as clubs of the same size as the weapon. When used in this manner they gain any enchantment bonuses the firearm has (a +3 Flaming flintlock is treated as a +3 Flaming club). This uses no Grit.
Removing the whole knockdown feature, as well as the attack bonus, should make it perfectly balanced while still making it useful…though I honestly think it should just be a standard ability acquired at level 3 by default.
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Y'know, I missed that part somehow when I was checking my review notes. That makes it even worse. Grit sucks completely right now. Q.QJust to jump in - killing enemies doesn't raise your grit.
The only time it does is your first kill of the day.
I think it's the first time you knock that particular target to 0 hitpoints for the day to prevent you from shooting someone, reloading, forcing a potion down their throat while they lay there unconscious, and then shooting them again when they wake up. It's poorly worded either way.
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You know, I was in love with this class when I first read it - and flavor-wise, I still think they have things basically right - but as I've (reluctantly) dug into the mechanics, I'm becoming more and more sadface. This thread is a really great analysis of why that's happening.
Cirno's thread was good too, but JB and SRM would probably need to take two antacids both before and after reading it (love ya cirno!), so I'll endorse this one instead.
J
This perfectly illustrates why the Gunslinger needs to go back on the drawing board.
As an aside, I have NO idea how ANYONE even REMOTELY familiar with the rules of the game could have written the Quick Draw "bonus" on Gunslinger initiative.
Here are some possible options to help fix the gunslinger.
1. Do NOT give deeds to the character. instead, make the ability similar to the magus' magus arcana ability, in where you would get to PICK the deed you would like to use. Otherwise, players would have abilities that they would never use due to that they dont like it and it doesnt fit their play style.
2. If you use the above, you can eliminate giving multiple deeds at certain levels. because of this you can free up some slots of abilities the gunslinger had and replace them with thing specific to the class, such as rapid reload and such. things that make sense for that character to have. this way a player isnt pidgeon held into playing a feat chained character but rath is able to pick how he wants to portray his gunslinger. not every fighter is the same, neither is every gunslinger. but the way the class is written now, every gunslinger will be the same. heres the only difference between a fighter and a gunslinger; one specializes in guns. thats it. it shouldnt dictate how he has to play that gunslinger. free the character up some feat slots so he can customize his character. give feats that make perfect sense that the character should have as a class ability.
3. I posted a thread on deeds but nobody responded. there were two other points in addition to what i gave above in number 1.
A) The deeds that have effects if the shot misses should have a save of some sort. on targeting, either give the creatures that you hit a save verses the side effects OR make this a standard/round action and let them get the effect without requiring a save. for the arms, give them either a Reflex save or target CMD for purposes of disarming/give them a bonus to the Disarm attempt.
B) Stunning Shot: you should still be able to do x4 damage on the critical and get the stun. you are 19th level. at this point, stun isnt that big of a deal. especially since it takes some feats to get the weapons crit range lowered, and then its still not as good. at least if you have to give up the crit damage stun them for a number of rounds. that seems more fair. if you do this option, give the creature a saving throw.
please let me know what you think.
Great analysis, Ashiel.
I'm more and more persuaded that a lot of "gun-tricks" should be shut down or reworked.
Perhaps the class should point to a larger amount of options, going more "swashbucklery" and have the full-gun spec as one of the options.
Spot on, Ashiel.
I think at this point, the gunslinger may have to be it's own class, not a sub-class ro archetype. I think trying to squeeze it into a fighter mold is holding the potential back some.
Perhaps a better direction is make it an inquisitor archetype, with some of the deeds or grit abilities running off of a judgement-like mechanic, and the enchancements (bane, etc.) that will make the guns not suck.
The spell casting aspect can be replaced wwith domain or bloodline-like mechanic that you can choose to specialize in yoru character's chosen style of gunplay (gun and sword, 2 pistols, free-hand pistol, etc.).
Just my 2 cp.
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Based on Ashiel's comments above, here are a few thoughts. As fair warning, I'm coming at this from the perspective of a huge fan of King's Dark Tower books, and I'm looking to more closely model Roland where possible.
Guns don't misfire for gunslingers: This is a fairly easy change to make, and can easily be done by following precedent set by spellcasters. Even better, it turns into a class feature! Insert language similar to the following:
Gunslingers methodically care for their guns with a great amount of reverence and attention to detail. Each gunslinger must spend 1 hour each day breaking down, oiling, cleaning, and otherwise maintaining her guns. As a result, firearms owned by gunslingers do not misfire. Newly aquired firearms must be maintained at least one time in this way, or else they are a risk to misfire as normal.
Give the gunslinger more grit: Again looking at spellcasters - Clerics more specifically and Channel Energy even more specifically - the precedent is there for a starting/max grit of 3+WisdMod. Go with that instead, and keep the original recharge mechanics minus Daring Act, which as Ashiel has so eloquently pointed out is not adequately scalable and encourges metagame asshattery.
Play up the gunslinger's role in the world: I know this isn't going to be universally appealing to everyone, but the gunslinger needs to have sort of a mystique about him. In King's books, the gunslinger is painted as a judge and jury as well as an arbiter of sorts. As a result, they are both feared and loved. Give them Diplomacy as a class skill (and Bluff, also something gunslingers in King's books and in the real world are noted for). It's unlikely that many gunslingers will actually put a lot of points into it (since they'll be dumping charisma, more on that in a moment), but giving it as a class skill would give the class a few more RP'ing possibilities. Also in this category, I'd support basing grit off of Charisma instead of Wisdom. That way, 'slingers could actually be good at Diplomacy and Bluff, and you could give Perception as a class skill without adding another class to the ranks of "Perception as class skill + Wisdom as primary/secondary stat = omgwtfperceptionnothingcanhideEVAR".
More deeds, with existing playtest deeds granted much earlier: Here's the thing: it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking of deeds as Rogue Talents; but they're not rogue talents, and aren't even close in power to most rogue talents. Most of these - shoot a lock? - are really basic and situational. Remove level restrictions on them to move them closer to Rogue talents thematically (and, obviously, make them a la carte like Rogue talents), and make an "advanced deeds" category for level 11 and up for some really over-the-top stuff. An example of "over-the-top" in this case would be a hypnotism effect similar to what Roland employs several times in the King books. This could be similar to hypnotism, but with scaling hit dice so as to remain effective at later levels, or something. You get the idea. Generally, as gunslingers get more experienced, I think they should develop an almost mystical quality to them, ever so slightly blurring the line between a martial character and a "caster". Instead, they learn to press the barrel of their still smoking gun against a bleeding wound to cauterize the wound. Yawn. That's level 1 stuff, there.
I'll probably come up with some more stuff (those are honestly rather minor fixes compared to what is left to be done), but those were just off the top of my head. What do you all think?
I think it's important to divorce guns from the gunslinger.
The gunslinger could (and I think should) be centralized as a wild west style, well, gunfighter.
However, guns, the weapon, should be useful for more then just the gunslinger. You can have a class centered around being a "gunslinger" while at the same time having guns as a weapon that are useful for swashbucklers and pirates.
I think it's important to divorce guns from the gunslinger.
The gunslinger could (and I think should) be centralized as a wild west style, well, gunfighter.
However, guns, the weapon, should be useful for more then just the gunslinger. You can have a class centered around being a "gunslinger" while at the same time having guns as a weapon that are useful for swashbucklers and pirates.
Agree completely. As written I can't think of any character who would be able to use a gun effectively other than a gunslinger. In fact, a normal character using the wealth by level shouldn't even be able to afford a firearm until 3rd level, at which point if they are a ranged based character they could have a masterwork composite longbow that is much cheaper and still superior in every way.
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As much as I was looking forward to this class, if left as is, or even remotely so, I think itll be one of the least played classes.
I agree with Ashiel (and very well posted btw). I also like Jeremiziah's ideas, I think that could go a long way to helping. But as Ashiel has demonstrated, the classes' features do not need to be about bringing their subpar weapons up to par, but rather bringing them from par to an eagle (thats a golf term, too, right?)
My next post shall discuss the gunslinger vs core classes, as well as firearm stuff. In the meantime, I wrote a gunslinger class, and I'd like to see what Prof. Cirno and the rest of the board (including the Paizo team) thinks of it.
The Document can be found: here. Feedback is appreciated, as-is criticism (let it be harsh and bloody!).
My next post shall discuss the gunslinger vs core classes, as well as firearm stuff. In the meantime, I wrote a gunslinger class, and I'd like to see what Prof. Cirno and the rest of the board (including the Paizo team) thinks of it.
The Document can be found: here. Feedback is appreciated, as-is criticism (let it be harsh and bloody!).
I love this. Deeds actually worth using, and Grit is actually regainable.
I disagree with what the op said about Pistol Whip, it is the ability to make the improvised attack at a +2 Bonus, and a chance to knock that person prone. Which is better than turning your weapon into a club which can be done using Catch Off Guard. At lower levels this ability is very good to have I'll take a +2 to hit at first to third level any time I can and if he has to spend a move action to stand up bonus.
What I see in a majority of these threads are a lot of complaints by people that have not even tried to play test the class they are for the most part nitpicking with out trying any of the rules...
Isn't the goal here to PLAY the classes THEN respond to the positives and negatives of the class.
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Pistol-whip (Ex): At 3rd level, a gunfighter can make melee attacks with their firearms treating them as clubs of the same size as the weapon. When used in this manner they gain any enchantment bonuses the firearm has (a +3 Flaming flintlock is treated as a +3 Flaming club). This uses no Grit.
This I like! I don't dislike the Gunslinger concept, but I agree with some of the points of the OP. Some of the abilities don't seem balanced against the scaling of others... no change in damage output, no real increase in abilities that would provide "staying power" at higher CR, etc. And some abilities, like the one above, come to late to be useful. This is an adjustment in the right direction.
There has been a LOT of hate for the Gunslinger class on these forums, and I think that the class has a place in Golarion as much as any other. I just think the mechanics need some better balancing.
I love this. Deeds actually worth using, and Grit is actually regainable.My next post shall discuss the gunslinger vs core classes, as well as firearm stuff. In the meantime, I wrote a gunslinger class, and I'd like to see what Prof. Cirno and the rest of the board (including the Paizo team) thinks of it.
The Document can be found: here. Feedback is appreciated, as-is criticism (let it be harsh and bloody!).
Glad you like it. I'd like to get some more feedback on it. Anything in particular you like or dislike?
Glad you like it. I'd like to get some more feedback on it. Anything in particular you like or dislike?
I like that it actually has a gritty and daring vibe to it. Things like Rolling Shot just fit perfectly. Being able to fan the revolvers to create a spray. Grit is more abundant and much more useful since the deeds are also now useful and you can actually regain grit. Perception as a class skill and 4+ int skill points also.
The class just works now. I'm sure the musketeer crowd prolly dislike it, but I'm not one of them. I saw the gunslinger class as being a revolver using old west gunslinger. If the devs wanted a musketeer or pirate they'd of made the class named that.
Complaints would be ya got some typos haha. Also the way grit is says its 2+ half class level, is this rounding down? Is there a minimum class level? etc.
I showed this to my DM and he loved it also.
Glad you like it. I'd like to get some more feedback on it. Anything in particular you like or dislike?I like that it actually has a gritty and daring vibe to it. Things like Rolling Shot just fit perfectly. Being able to fan the revolvers to create a spray. Grit is more abundant and much more useful since the deeds are also now useful and you can actually regain grit. Perception as a class skill and 4+ int skill points also.
The class just works now. I'm sure the musketeer crowd prolly dislike it, but I'm not one of them. I saw the gunslinger class as being a revolver using old west gunslinger. If the devs wanted a musketeer or pirate they'd of made the class named that.
Complaints would be ya got some typos haha. Also the way grit is says its 2+ half class level, is this rounding down? Is there a minimum class level? etc.
I showed this to my DM and he loved it also.
Nice. I'm glad to hear it. Also I've been pruning some of the typos out of the document within the past couple of hours.
A major one I noticed was in the firearms section, it's supposed to say "firearms only threaten a critical on a roll of 20 and only have a x2 threat range" where it's describing wielding them as simple weapons; yet the document posted here says something like "Firearms only threaten and the critical multiplier is x2", which is a typo.
Also, they should begin play with starting money as a bard (3d6x10gp); the updated document has this included in the core stats (right after HD).
Finally, I forgot to include a piece in the basic firearms rules noting that they're very loud. The base DC to hear a firearm should be DC -100 (so it's DC 10 to hear a firearm shot up to about 1100 feet away). Stealthy they ain't. lol
Oh yes, I added the (rounded down) to the latest version, but the core rules already say to round down unless specified otherwise (so I neglected to note it). It took no extra space and was added for convenience. I'll post the new one soonish.
Hopefully I'll get some more feedback. ^-^
EDIT: I was also trying to be kind to the long-gun crowd (muskets & riflemen). One of the first abilities they can choose from (Deadeye Shot) is particularly good with muskets and rifles, and there are several other abilities which lend themselves to using those effectively; and many of the abilities were designed to be used with pistols and rifles interchangeably. ('Cept the dual wielding & shotgun deeds).
After playtesting the Gunslinger last night I stayed up late thinking off all sorts of feedback, but Ashiel pulled it together better than what I had in mind. I completely agree with the analysis.
I also agree with Jeremiziah's comments, in particular that a lot of the deeds need to be brought down to lower levels.
The big thing that I found in last night's game was that the options I had to use my grit with were very limited and not really giving me a chance to do anything "spectacular" instead it was me just generally loading or firing and hoping not to get a 1.
In terms of the Pistol Whip, one of the problems I see is that you're getting into an issue of MAD when combat maneuvers start to be invoked. You need a high Dex and Wis, you always want a good Con. Charisma can get dumped for this class, and while you don't want to dump Str due to encumbrance, you still don't want to start spreading yourself thin if the whole point of your class is ranged projectiles.
Now you can say, "Agile Maneuvers solves the problem of combat maneuvers for someone with a high Dex" and that is true. The problem though is that a ranged attack character needs a huge number of feats, and the Gunslinger as it stands is pretty well starving for feat slots. So adding in yet another feat to fix an issue with the class just adds to the overall problematic theme about the Gunslinger, that too many of the class features are there simply to help the character fill in a gap in its performance.
I feel the same way, it seems at least at higher levels with just feats I can have the fighter do this better
Making it an alchemist alternate class sounds pretty thematic to me. Not sure how the class abilities would shift, but it seems like a cool fit fluff-wise.
Alchemists are junkies with molotov cocktails. Gunslingers (Tinkerers?) are pyromaniacs with guns and black powder!
A gun archetype for the Alchemist would be cool, there are a lot of action movies that feature Gunslingers using explosives. Westerns using dynamite and modern gun movies using grenades. Give them some cool gun schticks at the cost of Mutagens.
Here's the most recent HoA Gunslinger. It's the same as the one posted earlier, except that it has several typos fixed, proper starting gold, a little text cleanup here and there. Still looking for feedback. ^-^
Also, my post comparing the PF-Beta Gunslinger to the core classes is nigh. I just have to get around to writing it (it'll be quite long). Q.Q
Here's the most recent HoA Gunslinger. It's the same as the one posted earlier, except that it has several typos fixed, proper starting gold, a little text cleanup here and there. Still looking for feedback. ^-^
Also, my post comparing the PF-Beta Gunslinger to the core classes is nigh. I just have to get around to writing it (it'll be quite long). Q.Q
So I've been looking this over more and here are some more things.
1. Specify if a deed requires the usage of grit or not, some are confusing. Something like, "To use this deed the gunslinger must spend a minimum of 1 grit."
2. Deadeye Shot vs Called Shot: Headshot. Deadeye Shot deals +1d6/2 lvls AND gives you a grit. Called Shot Headshot deals extra +2d6 and... you lose a grit? I don't see why you'd ever choose to use a headshot.
3. Close Wound. I just love how while still not particularly useful, you got the grit cost perfect, namely, you should GAIN grit from this, since its so badass and gritty.
4. The Firearm rules. Are these under the touch ac basis or are they meant to be regular ac, with only deadeye hitting touch ac?
Here's the most recent HoA Gunslinger. It's the same as the one posted earlier, except that it has several typos fixed, proper starting gold, a little text cleanup here and there. Still looking for feedback. ^-^
Also, my post comparing the PF-Beta Gunslinger to the core classes is nigh. I just have to get around to writing it (it'll be quite long). Q.Q
So I've been looking this over more and here are some more things.
1. Specify if a deed requires the usage of grit or not, some are confusing. Something like, "To use this deed the gunslinger must spend a minimum of 1 grit."
2. Deadeye Shot vs Called Shot: Headshot. Deadeye Shot deals +1d6/2 lvls AND gives you a grit. Called Shot Headshot deals extra +2d6 and... you lose a grit? I don't see why you'd ever choose to use a headshot.
3. Close Wound. I just love how while still not particularly useful, you got the grit cost perfect, namely, you should GAIN grit from this, since its so badass and gritty.
4. The Firearm rules. Are these under the touch ac basis or are they meant to be regular ac, with only deadeye hitting touch ac?
1) If they say they use grit, then they do. For example, rolling shot says you gain grit. Burst shot says that you deal 2d6 per grit expended. Pistol whip is static but specifies that as long as you have at least 1 grit the effect is better; so the Deeds themselves (barring any accidental typos) should declare which you spend grit on.
2) You receive 1 deed every odd level, which means you may not possess both Deadeye Shot and Called Shot. Headshot is also a fairly effective way to convert grit into damage, as each grit you expend during the shot adds +2d6 damage, so at 3rd level a gunslinger with Deadeye Shot could deal weapon damage + 1d6 and gain 1 grit, she could dump 3 grit into a headshot to deal weapon damage + 3d6; but then she'd be out of grit and would need to begin regaining grit before she could pull that off again.
Likewise, called shot has more utility, since it can be used to attempt other tricks (disarming, tripping, bleeding, or disrupting flight); so headshot isn't intended to be the main reason to take the deed; merely a fine option if you need it in a pinch.
3) Glad to hear it. ^.^
4) The firearms under this system do not ignore armor. Deadeye shot is the exception to this. Guns really don't ignore armor that effectively; at least not at the tech-level we're talking about. Plate armor was pretty impervious to firearms prior to armor being outmoded due to cost concerns. Likewise, D&D combat is an abstraction. If we were looking for realism then maces and the like would also ignore armor because of blunt-force trauma being delivered through armor.
Previous editions tried to emulate the armor penetration of various weapons, but most of these cases just ended making the game more complicated and clumsy without really adding much.
So, short answer, no they don't ignore armor except when used with the Deadeye Shot deed. On a side note, the damage that Deadeye shot will likely do at 20th level is around 47 damage (assuming a +5 rifle and 10d6), which is very low for a round's worth of damage; but since it can ignore Armor and provides grit, that's ok; I think.
Anything else you'd like to discuss? I'd like to make it the best it can be. ^-^
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Well written and very funny. In a world where "lol" has become little more than punctuation for retards, I actually laughed out loud several times. So lol and all that.
I doubt they'll remake this as an Alchemist variant but I could see it. Well, any 3/4 BAB class really. Full BAB classes are the least likely to need to hit vs Touch AC.
On the HoA Gunslinger:
1. Perform is spelled incorrectly in the class skills.
2. Survival should really be a class skill for a frakkin cowboy.
3. Rolling shot seems a bit powerful so early. I realize the movement allowed is much less than Spring Attack but still. Bonuses to Reflex and AC, doesn't provoke from anyone. This shouldn't be available until at least 3rd and probably 6th level (the same time you could get Spring Attack). To make it allowable earlier you might consider causing the Gunslinger to be prone at the end or if the attack misses or something.
That's all I got from my initial 1:30am read through.
Well written and very funny. In a world where "lol" has become little more than punctuation for retards, I actually laughed out loud several times. So lol and all that.
I doubt they'll remake this as an Alchemist variant but I could see it. Well, any 3/4 BAB class really. Full BAB classes are the least likely to need to hit vs Touch AC.
On the HoA Gunslinger:
1. Perform is spelled incorrectly in the class skills.
2. Survival should really be a class skill for a frakkin cowboy.
3. Rolling shot seems a bit powerful so early. I realize the movement allowed is much less than Spring Attack but still. Bonuses to Reflex and AC, doesn't provoke from anyone. This shouldn't be available until at least 3rd and probably 6th level (the same time you could get Spring Attack). To make it allowable earlier you might consider causing the Gunslinger to be prone at the end or if the attack misses or something.That's all I got from my initial 1:30am read through.
Thank you for the post review. ^-^
1) Thanks! I missed that, and so did my spellchecker.
2) I really considered Survival when I was writing it, but I wasn't sure if it was needed since they could just invest ranks in it untrained, but I'll consider adding it in.
3) I considered rolling shot to be the go-to deed for the mobile skirmisher gunslinger (the kind that runs around, dodging attacks and shooting). I figured that the AC / Reflex bonuses wouldn't be very high since they scale at 1/2 level (so +1 at 2nd level, +2 at 4th); and since the class doesn't really do armor heavier than light, it's their primary defensive ability. At low levels, the most distance it can cover is 3 squares (15 ft) assuming 30 ft speed without penalties; which is still not really good enough to keep people from pounding you in melee. I kind of see this ability as being that thing mobile 'slingers are doin' when they have nothing better to do.
I'll consider its potential carefully however. I'm enjoying this feedback. ^-^
EDIT: Actually, if anyone would like to try out the class a bit in a few sessions, I'd love to get feedback on that too. ^.^
Anything else you'd like to discuss? I'd like to make it the best it can be. ^-^
Not at the moment. I've shown it to a few others, of which some of their concerns were... Quoted phrases being them, not me.
1. "Keeping track of grit." Minor, but potentially irritating.
2. "For having a theme of dual wielding revolvers... the class itself gives no benefit towards this."
I realize you tried to make the class more open-ended in terms of revolvers, rifles, shotguns etc though. An option, similar to the ranger in terms of a selection of feats to a particular weapon style would be nice but not needed I think honestly, as much of the feat tax from the current playtest gunslinger is now missing with free rapid reloads and free quick draws from the deeds.
EDIT: Actually, if anyone would like to try out the class a bit in a few sessions, I'd love to get feedback on that too. ^.^
I may ask my DM if I can temporarily shelf my current char to try out your gunslinger for a session. If not, then I'll try it run though something similar to yuengling does. 1 on 1s are extremely unlikely, but its certainly the easiest for such purposes.
Anything else you'd like to discuss? I'd like to make it the best it can be. ^-^
Not at the moment. I've shown it to a few others, of which some of their concerns were... Quoted phrases being them, not me.
1. "Keeping track of grit." Minor, but potentially irritating.
2. "For having a theme of dual wielding revolvers... the class itself gives no benefit towards this."I realize you tried to make the class more open-ended in terms of revolvers, rifles, shotguns etc though. An option, similar to the ranger in terms of a selection of feats to a particular weapon style would be nice but not needed I think honestly, as much of the feat tax from the current playtest gunslinger is now missing with free rapid reloads and free quick draws from the deeds.
I may ask my DM if I can temporarily shelf my current char to try out your gunslinger for a session. If not, then I'll try it run though something similar to yuengling does. 1 on 1s are extremely unlikely, but its certainly the easiest for such purposes.
EDIT: Actually, if anyone would like to try out the class a bit in a few sessions, I'd love to get feedback on that too. ^.^
Thanks for more feedback. Quoted feedback from your friends is great too. ^-^
1) I've been toying around with it for a bit, and so far it seems pretty easy to keep track of. One method I found for keeping track without writing notes is to use a spare die. You never have more than 12 grit at one time (at 20th level), so in the heat of combat you can sit a d6-d12 on the table, and turn it to remember your grit between rounds.
2) I wanted to keep the abilities fairly independent of the weapons the gunslinger was using specifically, since most of the deeds can be preformed either way; and some of the deeds combo well with feats like Two-Two Weapon Fighting (Rapid Firing provides Rapid Shot, for example, which works well with both rifles and revolvers). Everyone gets 10 feats over 20 levels, so any extra specialization could be done with your normal feats and/or multiclassing (since Fighter/Gunslinger or Ranger/Gunslinger could be fun options).
It's good to hear what they think though. I'll keep this in mind. Do you think your friends are looking for pre-determined builds; or "talent trees" (such as revolver tree, rifle tree, scattergun tree), focusing entirely on one aspect of a particular weapon at the exclusion of others? If so, I might be able to cook up a variant or alternate class features.
Also, if you do get to playtest it, that'll be great. ^-^
It's good to hear what they think though. I'll keep this in mind. Do you think your friends are looking for pre-determined builds; or "talent trees" (such as revolver tree, rifle tree, scattergun tree), focusing entirely on one aspect of a particular weapon at the exclusion of others? If so, I might be able to cook up a variant or alternate class features.
I was thinking more along the lines of what the ranger gets. You make a choice between dual wielding, or archery. In this case it'd be something like dual wielding pistols and scattergun/rifle. Each option would have feats tailored to that style which could be freely chosen, much like a ranger.
It's hardly thought out and as you and I said there is certainly enough feats through leveling to fit in these holes, but it's still an idea.
PF Gunslinger Review - Part 2: Comparing Core Classes
In this post, I'm going to compare the Pathfinder Gunslinger Playtest to the core classes in terms of roles and usefuless; and we'll be exploring their weapon options as well.
Gunslinger vs Fighter: The gunslinger is noted in the playtest book as being a variant of the fighter, so the first class we will be comparing them to is the Fighter.
Fighters are perhaps the most effective ranged damage dealers in the game; and truthfully I don't think this should really be challenged. If your class deals more damage than an archery based fighter, you should probably pull it back a bit. However, the gunslinger is considered a fighter, and also focuses entirely upon ranged combat, so it should have numbers around the same ballpark.
Sample Builds: For the purposes of this comparison, we're going to be using the effective strength based archer, as it's simple, strait-forward, and effective. It stat priorities are Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, in that order, and will be built using 15 points.
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7.
Init +3, Hp 11, AC 18, touch 13, flat 16, Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1;
Ranged sling +4 (1d4+3, 50ft) or dart +3/+3 (1d4+3)
Melee longspear +4 (1d8+4/x3, reach) or Spiked Gauntlet +4 (1d4+3)
Feats - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Equipment (175 gp) - Chainmail (150 gp), longspear (5 gp), sling (0 gp), 10 darts (5 gp), spiked gauntlet (5 gp), 10 gp in adventuring gear
For our gunslinger, we will also be using 15 points, and focusing on Dexterity (since most of their abilities rely on it, such as gun training), with wisdom as their 2nd priority, and con as their third priority.
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7.
Init +4, Hp 11, AC 16, touch 14, flat 12, Fort +1, Ref +6, Will +2;
Ranged pistol +5 (1d8/x4, 20ft)
Melee spiked gauntlet +2 (1d4+1)
Feats - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload
Equipment (2,085 gp) - Two Pistols (2,000 gp), spiked gauntlet (5 gp), 50 shots of ammo (55 gp), leather armor (15 gp), 10 gp in adventuring gear.
I'm going to try and ignore the fact the Gunslinger is about twice the suggested wealth for a 2nd level character, and assume they have about the same starting gear. The 12 strength is because the gunslinger can't carry his equipment effectively without it (15 lb armor, 8 lb guns, 1 lb gauntlet, about 50 lbs ammo if you use the weight for sling bullets as a measuring point (sling bullets are itty bitty iron balls, like ball bearings, and for some reason weight 5 lbs for 10, so 50 shots of lead and the powder must be pretty damn heavy too)). Even still, the gunslinger is overweight and thus is suffering some harsh penalties.
The fighter's weight capacity is good, and he can purchase some sling bullets with his adventuring gear (5 sp / 50 bullets), or simply use rocks (1d3+2 in his case) to be particularly frugal and not worry about hauling ammo.
Mechanical Breakdown
At 1st level we see the fighter is clearly the superior combatant, even with about 1/20th the wealth that the gunslinger begins with. The fighter has superior range and damage, and a better rate of fire (it takes a move action to reload the sling, and a standard for the gun, but the gunslinger burns one of his 2 first level feats on Rapid Reload to compensate).
The fighter's average sling damage is about 3.5 if using rocks, or 5 using bullets, compared to the 4.5 of the pistol. The fighter likewise has a higher minimum damage (3 for rocks or 4 for slings).
The gunslinger's accuracy is much better in the first 15 feet of combat, thanks to their "touch attack" mechanic, but at 20ft she suffers a -2 penalty to hit and loses her touch-attack mechanics, making the fighter the clearly superior ranged combatant.
Likewise, the Fighter was able to afford the feats to comfortably attack into melee, whereas the gunslinger had two options: Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot or Point Blank Shot + Rapid Reload, and shooting every other turn does not a ranged fighter make; since it would at least halve your damage per round.
The gunslinger loses this advantage the moment she's outside of her minimum range increment however; which at low levels is 20-40 ft. This means she will spend a lot of time in melee combat, since to actually get the benefits of her gun, she must be within charging (or simply moving) distance from her opponents; and can quickly become locked down with relative ease (a CR 1/3 orc warrior with a longspear or glaive will pretty much make her cry).
Meanwhile, the Fighter not only is beating the gunslinger at range, but also beating the gunslinger at melee too. The fighter can drop his sling, draw his longspear as part of a move action (due to his +1 BAB) and then wade into combat while enjoying a solid AC and damage output.
So at 1st level, the fighter is beating the gunslinger out. The gunslinger also has only 2 grit, and the best she can really do with it is hope her gun doesn't explode on her ('cause she cannot afford another one) and drop prone as an immediate action.
At Later Levels
At 2nd level, the fighter should have acquired enough gold to purchase a bow. In fact, the fighter can comfortably support a +3 strength composite longbow (about 400 gp) or even a masterwork version (700 gp), and picks up rapid shot. This gives him the same attack bonus he had with his sling, except now he has a pair of 1d8+3 attacks from up to 110 ft; bringing his potential damage up to an average of 15 damage if both attacks land.
At 2nd level, the gunslinger gets no real increase in damage dealing potential. He could take two-weapon fighting if he dual-wields revolvers; but that only lets him deal an average of 9 burst damage, and then requires 2 rounds to reload; while a musketeer could now take precise shot or farshot to try and make up for their poor accuracy.
As the levels rise, the fighter soars over the gunslinger in leaps and bounds. Assuming the gunslinger's gun doesn't explode, forcing him to pay the price of a +1 ability item or +1 cloak of resistance for a new one, the fighter will qualify for Manyshot at 6th level, when he also gets iterative attacks (something the 'slinger can only dream of currently). So now the fighter can comfortably support the following attack routine: +11/+11/+6 at an average of 10.5 damage per hit from up to 105ft away (this assumes weapon focus, weapon specialization, weapon training 1, and a masterwork bow), and the first hit has an average of 21 damage, so even if only the first two attacks hit, the archer is dealing 31.5 damage per round.
By this point, the gunslinger can easily support a 20 Dexterity (maybe even a 22 if they had an 18 + 2 at 1st level), which means they get 1d8+6 damage on a hit with their guns; which is an average of about 10.5 damage.
So the gunslinger is definitely, definitely not keeping up in damage potential. At this point, a bard will be outdamaging him with a bow.
Bardic Upstage!: At 6th level, the bard with rapid shot and precise shot can support the following attack routine: +8/+8 at 1d6+4 points of damage or 7.5 per shot; or a single attack at +8 for 1d6+8 (12.5 per shot) with Deadly Aim instead of Rapid Shot. Meanwhile, he's also buffing this allies with +2hit/dmg, and he's got 6 + Int modifier skill points, spells, etc; and he's shooting farther than you, and with a relatively silent weapon.
If you compare the gunslinger to the ranger, it comes out much the same. The ranger deals less damage per round than the Fighter, more damage than the gunslinger, and he gets a pet, and lots of juicy skill points; as well as the option to cast spells (which allows him to heal his party for about 250 hp between encounters with a wand of cure light wounds, which incidentally is cheaper than the exploding pistols).
In Conclusion: The best way to build an effective gunslinger under the current ruleset would be to begin play as a 22 strength orc gunslinger with a 14 dexterity, and a 12 Con. Take pair of revolvers, sell both of them immediately for 1,000 gp, then buy a masterwork composite longbow with a +6 strength modifier, and use that and a glaive or ransuer, as well as a spiked gauntlet, and some scale mail. At 2nd level, multiclass into Fighter or Ranger, and begin picking up abilities that help you. From this point on, you can put your level-ups into Dexterity and you will rock low levels quite hard, and manage to be effective even past the very high 3rd level.
More to come...
Sorry it took so long!
First off, fantastic look at the class.
Secondly, regarding your own class (I won't do a full play by play :p), it looks way better then the original gunslinger. I especially like the way regaining grit is tied to abilities rather then random occurences - the old gunslinger has to double check everything with the DM to see if he's "cool enough" whereas your version actively has "do an acrobatic stunt to gain grit" as a full mechanic, which works almost infinitely better. I'd wager that the "use ability to gain points" is potentially one of the best answers to the questions I made in the general forums regarding rechargable abilities. The deeds all look great. Sixth Sense might be a bit much, however.
One thing I especially like is how dynamic the class is, switching through various deeds and moving the grit along in and out (or keeping it steady). I don't see keeping it as too much of a hassle - just have an extra die out and set it to your grit. No need to constantly write it down.
As far as guns go, again, a huge improvement. You actually reward players for taking EWP rather then punish them for not, and it helps stress the mythos of the weapon as both "simple so anyone can use" and "mythical weapon once you master it."
My only problem with the class is, hilariously enough, the various deeds look too fun and I now envision someone with two short scatterguns, two revolvers, and a rifle all strapped to his body to swing out and use :p
Sorry it took so long!
First off, fantastic look at the class.
Secondly, regarding your own class (I won't do a full play by play :p), it looks way better then the original gunslinger. I especially like the way regaining grit is tied to abilities rather then random occurences - the old gunslinger has to double check everything with the DM to see if he's "cool enough" whereas your version actively has "do an acrobatic stunt to gain grit" as a full mechanic, which works almost infinitely better. I'd wager that the "use ability to gain points" is potentially one of the best answers to the questions I made in the general forums regarding rechargable abilities. The deeds all look great. Sixth Sense might be a bit much, however.
One thing I especially like is how dynamic the class is, switching through various deeds and moving the grit along in and out (or keeping it steady). I don't see keeping it as too much of a hassle - just have an extra die out and set it to your grit. No need to constantly write it down.
As far as guns go, again, a huge improvement. You actually reward players for taking EWP rather then punish them for not, and it helps stress the mythos of the weapon as both "simple so anyone can use" and "mythical weapon once you master it."
My only problem with the class is, hilariously enough, the various deeds look too fun and I now envision someone with two short scatterguns, two revolvers, and a rifle all strapped to his body to swing out and use :p
Haha, awesome. ^.^
I'm glad to hear you like it; and I think I could live with "too fun" being one of its drawbacks. :PAlso, one of my friends is playtesting it in an online game of ours, and surely enough, he took the Rich Parents trait and the Heirloom Weapon trait, and began with two revolvers from his class; so he literally has 2 short-scatterguns, 2 revolvers, and 1 heirloom musket; as he wanted to be a walking arsenal of hot-death. ^___^
Also, Here is the most Recent Gunslinger for Playtesting. It's pretty much the other with a few typos fixed and a corrected skill list (added survival by request, and Intimidate had (Str) listed as the ability for some reason). Basically, mostly typo fixes; but I'd like it to be easy to read. ^-^
Economy of actions seems to be the root of the gunslinger's problems. Being able to fire once every other round doesn't even remotely cut it when an archer can put out 12 arrows in 2 rounds. Having to carry 6 guns, Quickdraw, and then be out of shots after 2 rounds of combat isn't particularly satisfying either, especially when walking around to collect them all after the fight isn't necessarily an option every time. If revolvers become the default weapon of the final version, i'm hoping that speedloaders allow for a free, swift, or in the worst case, move action reloading of the whole cylinder. Sitting out a round while the archer fires 6 shots is no good.
I'd wager that the "use ability to gain points" is potentially one of the best answers to the questions I made in the general forums regarding rechargable abilities.
This. The vague "do something risky" mechanic in the original design doesn't work very well. Giving the class actual cool stuff to do that is "gritty" and effective is more viable (no guesswork) while still being fun.
The ability to recover points is an aspect of the grit system that potentially makes it stand out from the other point-based class features like that of the monk. There should be an interesting way of making that recovery happen that makes the class unique.
In my attempt to get more opinions for you Ashiel someone finally really took a bite into the class, here are their thoughts.
"First of three immediate problems I see are the fact that you have no rendered all swordplay obsolete. There is no reason to EVER play a sword-using combatant now. Guns do so much more daamge and have so much more powerful critical effects that archery, pole-arms, and swords have zero play value.
Second problem I see is they have magic. A lot of those great and legendary deeds are pure magic, with no reasonable explanation for it.
Third problem, and this is a killer, is that they gets deeds at the same time as they get feats, AND they get alternate class abilities at the same time. Because deeds=more powerful feats, you have something with effectively more than 19 feats+more class abilities than any fighter type. You have now rendered barbarians and rangers obsolete.
Shotgun Nightmare: Do an extra 3d6 per point of grit remaining, without spending it whole threatening and flanking at range. So at 10th level, this is 7x3d6, or 21d6 damage at will, no limits, as AoO, so with combat reflexes you can do this about 3-7 times in a single round. It's BETTER than magic!
Hand Cannons: Remember the example above? Now with CONE EFFECTS.
Now, on to the other problems.
The fighter class has 3 class abilities and 21 feats. This Gunslinger has a class abilities every even level, and two feats at every odd level. No class gets two feats every level - rogues get talents at even levels, barbarians get powers at even levels, and so on and so forth. This is an easy fix, but it is still a problem.
You see the damage and crit tables of firearms? The ONLY weapon with that type of damage and crit factor is the falcata, and you need to spend a proficency to use it. You can enchant it to increase the crit range, so we won't worry about that with it or with guns. Except that the fighter has proficiency with all of these weapons from 1st level. Why would anyone use anythign but a gun slinger, especiallyu with the powers I described above, for any reason other than flavor? 21d6 damage with a 17-20 crit threat for triple damage at 10th level? Sign me right the hell up."
Heretek, not to put too fine of a point on it, but if your players are saying it makes spellcasters obsolete because of damage, uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
+1
Alternative: Prestige Class (dirty words I know).