Spell targeting a creature twice?


Rules Questions


So I’m looking at Curruptions as a GM and the possessed one has an ability:

Blurred Soul

The possessing spirit confounds targeted magic.

Prerequisite(s): Manifestation level 5th.

Gift: Spells that affect a limited number of targets can fail when targeting you unless the caster selects you as two separate targets. Against such spells that target you only once, you have an amount of spell resistance equal to 11 + double your manifestation level. A spellcaster who finishes casting a spell that targets you only once and succeeds at a caster level check against your spell resistance notices the interference and can attempt a DC 25 Spellcraft check to realize she needs to target you twice to circumvent it with future spells.

I’ve never come across a scenario of targeting twice with a spell so I need rule clarification: is it casting the same spell twice in a round (if so I’m assuming it needs to be quicken spell), is it twice in the same combat (example round 1 and 2 same spell for it to work).


I have never seen this either, but the description of the ability uses the spell instead of spells when talking about targeting you twice. That would seem to indicate you can target a person more than once. Generally speaking you only have to make a saving throw or roll spell resistance once, so other than this particular ability I don’t think targeting a creature twice is going to gain a caster any advantage.

Some spells like Chain Lightning specifically call out that you cannot affect a target more than once per spell. That is further indication that you can target a creature more than once with a spell. If there was a general rule about only being able to affect a target once why would they call out not being able to do so in the spells description.


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What I think is intended there is that "targeting twice" means to consume two targets worth of capacity.

A spell like fireball wouldn't qualify because you don't target it.
A spell like charm person wouldn't qualify because you only target one person with it.
But a spell like inflict light wounds, mass...

Target one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

I would think qualifies. It's a cleric 5 spell, so you need to be CL 9th to cast it. You'd normally be able to target 9 creatures. But if one of them has Blurred Soul, you'd only be able to target them and 7 others because you need to target them twice.

Now. Technically charm person targets a limited number of targets: one. I'd think that's pretty darned cheesy though, to say "I get SR against any single-target spell". But I haven't looked at what the cost is for these corruptions, so I'm unsure if it's fair. I'd consult with my GM before picking the ability, to make sure everyone's going to play the rule the same way.

Note: SR is usually a standard action to shut off for one round, so remember that you may hose yourself here if an ally tries to dimension door you to safety and doesn't have the capacity to bring along an extra target.


I would have to agree that by the wording it would require twice the amount of targeting to affect the Blurred Soul. As cheesy as it is, like Anguish pointed out, by the wording, you would have SR against any single target spells, like charm person, requiring a mass charm person, which could let the caster target the Blurred Soul twice.

So, in the case of a teleport-type effect (teleport doesn't typically allow SR for creatures, but this is an example), Medium-sized Blurred Soul would use up two targets worth of power, while a Large-sized Blurred Soul (normally takes two Medium creatures worth) would cost four.

It looks like double targeting is not usually allowed though. I don't recall it ever really coming up. So it looks like in the case of Blurred Soul, it requires the caster to not only cast a spell and beat the Blurred Soul's SR, but then make a separate Spellcraft (DC 25) to realize what happened and by doing so, it grants them the ability to double up, which I don't think it really doable (or if it is, would have no appreciable effect in any other case). By doing so, they prevent the SR from applying for the Blurred Soul.

It's still pretty impressive, since a caster has to hit you with something, and then not only beat your SR, but also a separate Spellcraft check... and then cast another spell with multiple targets just to deny you it. It looks like failing the SR check (or the Spellcraft if you succeed) gives no information or indication of anything going on (or how to overcome it).

Liberty's Edge

The rules in the CRB don't speak of targeting a single target multiple times with the same casting of a spell. That mean that, at least in the CRB, there is nothing in favour or against doing that.
Stacking applies, so the same effect, from the same spell, doesn't stack but overlap, damege included, so targeting multiple times Cause Light Wounds, Mass, on one creature don't increase the maximum possible damage, but increase the chances of applying the maximum damage, as the target needs to save multiple times to halve it.

The maximum utility is for things like Slow. At 5th level, casting a 3rd leve spell against a single target that saves with 6+ usually isn't worth it. But, if you can target it 5 times, that 25% chance of failing becomes a 76% chance of failure.

The Exchange

Anguish wrote:

What I think is intended there is that "targeting twice" means to consume two targets worth of capacity.

A spell like fireball wouldn't qualify because you don't target it.
A spell like charm person wouldn't qualify because you only target one person with it.
But a spell like inflict light wounds, mass...

Target one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

I would think qualifies. It's a cleric 5 spell, so you need to be CL 9th to cast it. You'd normally be able to target 9 creatures. But if one of them has Blurred Soul, you'd only be able to target them and 7 others because you need to target them twice.

Now. Technically charm person targets a limited number of targets: one. I'd think that's pretty darned cheesy though, to say "I get SR against any single-target spell". But I haven't looked at what the cost is for these corruptions, so I'm unsure if it's fair. I'd consult with my GM before picking the ability, to make sure everyone's going to play the rule the same way.

This is exactly how I would play it, including adding in that spells which only affect a single target are not affected.

Quote:
Note: SR is usually a standard action to shut off for one round, so remember that you may hose yourself here if an ally tries to dimension door you to safety and doesn't have the capacity to bring along an extra target.

The stain of this corruption is also pretty significant. Allies have to succeed on touch attacks to target you with touch spells. And if the spirit has 3 or more points of influence you have to attempt saving throws against (harmless) spells.


Allowing a save each time you are targets is going to open up a can of worms and should not be allowed. What is going to happen is that casters are going to start using it to guarantee their spells affects the target. Mass suggestion now requires you to roll one saving throw per caster level and any failure means you are affected. Mass Charm Person is even worse
it has no limit to the number of targets so the caster could target you 100 or more times and you would have to make 100 saves or be charmed.

There is no support in the rules for multiple targeting, but this ability allows it. That means that other than allowing this ability to work, targeting multiple creatures does not do anything more than the spell already does. Mass spells are supposed to allow you to affect more than one target, not be supercharged versions of the spell.

Liberty's Edge

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Allowing a save each time you are targets is going to open up a can of worms and should not be allowed. What is going to happen is that casters are going to start using it to guarantee their spells affects the target. Mass suggestion now requires you to roll one saving throw per caster level and any failure means you are affected. Mass Charm Person is even worse

it has no limit to the number of targets so the caster could target you 100 or more times and you would have to make 100 saves or be charmed.

There is no support in the rules for multiple targeting, but this ability allows it. That means that other than allowing this ability to work, targeting multiple creatures does not do anything more than the spell already does. Mass spells are supposed to allow you to affect more than one target, not be supercharged versions of the spell.

Suggestion, mass wrote:


Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

At most, 20 targets and 20 saves.

Suggestion wrote:


You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

Suggestion doesn't charm anyone. It suggests a course of action.

Hyperbole doesn't help much in this kind of discussion.


I never said suggested that Suggestion charmed anyone. What I said is that Mass Charm was worse than Mass Suggestion because it does not have a one creature per level limit.

CHARM MONSTER, MASS

Targets One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

If any failed save means you are don’t make your save what is to prevent a caster from targeting a creature multiple times to increase the chance of them failing the save. Someone casting mass charm could easily say I am targeting each creature 50 times.

Why are you also assuming that if you have to make multiple saves you use the worst save? It could just as easily be that if you have to make multiple saves a success on any save means you succeed. Like I said before there are no rules for this so the best bet is too simply allow a caster to target a creature twice when they recognize what is going on but not to grant extra saves.


I would also say that multiple targetings on a creature would have no additional harmful effects. Only in the case of Blurred Soul should this be allowed (after the caster beats the SR and makes their Spellcraft check). At that point, double (or triple or more) targeting of the Blurred Soul only suppresses the SR against the spell, the Blurred Soul would still receive any saves allowed against the spell.


from the looks of it you just have to pay with 2 targets towards the limit of whatever spell.


There are also a few spells that allow you to target a creature more than once. 5 magic missiles, split between any number (up to 5) targets. 2 or more at the blurred soul would suppress the SR. Scorching ray, and probably a few other ray spells. But I suspect the writers intent was not to only have the SR suppressed for these very few specific spells.

Liberty's Edge

Mysterious Stranger wrote:


Targets One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

And where do you get the targets to spend in that?

Suggestion, mass gives you X targets selections that you spend as you want, Charm Monster, mass, gives you 1 attempt for each creature.

Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart =/= Targets One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart


As the GM in my game I think I’m gonna rule it like this (although an official verdict would be great)

1) Allowing mass spells to target twice however effects don’t stack. Maybe limiting mass single target to 1/4 caster level. Capping at 5 tries at level 20 or only allow retargeting in cases of this ability to make it smoother.
2) If the caster has a quicken spell for single target spells, and casts the same spell again same round (technically it’s targeting twice in same round) example npc opens with a quicken dominate person, realizes what happens then casts a prepared one same round.)

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