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Okay, so I have a serious question. I realize that this can be a hot button topic and I want to be educated about it. I'm certainly not here to attack anyone, and I would hope all respondents to the thread have the same courtesy. I'm here to ask a question, not disrupt anyone's lifestyle.
So first, the main question I have came about in SFS scenario 3-17 (Clone Batch Catastrophe). At the end of the episode there is a chance for a bunch of non-binary human clones named 'Joro' to be set free into the world, and I though it would be great fun to PLAY one such character.
The thing is, I, the player, and a cisgendered straight male. Just how I am. Now I am trying very hard to broadeden my horizons, and play LGBTQ+ characters, partly as a way of just having more options and more representation out there, and also partly because I want to see if I can expand my own horizons to be more of an ally.
The thing is, and I hate to admit this, I'm just really bad with nonbinary stuff. I've tried and tried and I keep trying, since I have friends that are gender non-conforming, but I always default to saying one Gender or the other. I just slip up all the time. My higher brain knows what I am supposed to say, but somehow my lips keep saying he and or she instead of 'they' or xhi or any of the other options. So to play Joro, I'd have to choose a gender.
So a very long story short, from a guy who is not a member of the LGBTQ+ Community, how bad of a person would I be if I said my Joro was experimenting with identifying as male? With the full realization that they were nonbinary, and just choosing to identify as Male for the time being to see how it stuck? Is that acceptable? Is that unacceptable? I'm really in the dark here and I don't know what is offensive and what people find okay. I'm not even going to mark 'M' under gender but "Nonbinary-currently experimenting as Identifying As Male."
I really, sincerely don't want to offend anyone, especially since the character (gender issues aside) is supposed to be just a bunch of silly fun. A Joro who has become obsessed with JoJo's bizarre Adventure to become Jo-Joro. I love the concept and don't want to have to ditch the character, but I also don't want to accidentally offend anyone. So I'm seeking some input from members of the community who are maybe more well-versed in this subject than I.
Am I doing something wrong? Is this character okay?
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Nobody is going to begrudge your Joro being non-nonbinary. As long as you play your Joro as someone who came from a nonbinary culture, who is to say that your particular Joro isn't male?
My Joro wasn't raised with other Joros, but their geneticist "mom" sometimes slipped up and called them "he" based on who she saw as his "dad" (another PC, long story) so they answer to he/they.
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I think it's pretty clear you're trying to approach this from a place of growth, and broadening your horizons - and that's good! But, at the end of the day, intentions aside, you're boiling this down to "what if I took an LGBTQ2S+ person, and changed them to be what I am most comfortable with - a cisgender heterosexual dude."
Yes, that is one possibility for a fledgling Joro unleashed upon a galaxy where serums of sex shift are cheap and plentiful (although the Joros are described as non-binary and not, like, genderqueer or genderfluid or gender questioning or something else; to me that reads more as "this is my gender" rather than "I'm exploring and changing.") Yes, no one can tell you how to play your character. But, I think from a sensitivity perspective...what you're proposing maybe isn't a good look, right now. I know, best of intentions, but - it's still very easy for someone from the outside looking in to see this and say "wow this is non-binary erasure." I think it's pretty clear that's not the way you're trying to play it, but again...that's one way it could be seen.
I think that an LGBTQ2S+ person would be pretty valid if they saw this and said "wow here comes the patriarchy taking my things again - we can't just have one toy in the toybox just for us without Johnny Cishet trying to take it for themselves."
I want to again stress that I think it's clear that that's not your intention. Intentions aren't always what people see, or look for first, is the thing; and well-intentioned actions can still end up being hurtful. For example, if someone were actually trying to be a jerk and "steal the enbies' toys" - how would you know? How could you differentiate between "someone trying to learn more and be a better ally" and "someone maliciously trying to deny non-binary existence by saying 'lol was man all along'?" If you're serious and committed to this, maybe think about that question, and how you can be like the former, and not the latter.
So, at the end of the day, no one can really say "no" to you...but if you are, to use your own words, "just really bad with nonbinary stuff" right now, then maybe playing a non-binary person now isn't a great choice. Maybe put your Joro idea back on the shelf and see if you can grow or learn in other ways, and revisit the idea when you've got a bit more experience under your belt :)
(One final word of caution - don't expect non-binary people to hand-hold you down that path. It's not their responsibility to educate other people.)
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I think it's pretty clear you're trying to approach this from a place of growth, and broadening your horizons - and that's good! But, at the end of the day, intentions aside, you're boiling this down to "what if I took an LGBTQ2S+ person, and changed them to be what I am most comfortable with - a cisgender heterosexual dude."
Yes, that is one possibility for a fledgling Joro unleashed upon a galaxy where serums of sex shift are cheap and plentiful (although the Joros are described as non-binary and not, like, genderqueer or genderfluid or gender questioning or something else; to me that reads more as "this is my gender" rather than "I'm exploring and changing.") Yes, no one can tell you how to play your character. But, I think from a sensitivity perspective...what you're proposing maybe isn't a good look, right now. I know, best of intentions, but - it's still very easy for someone from the outside looking in to see this and say "wow this is non-binary erasure." I think it's pretty clear that's not the way you're trying to play it, but again...that's one way it could be seen.
I think that an LGBTQ2S+ person would be pretty valid if they saw this and said "wow here comes the patriarchy taking my things again - we can't just have one toy in the toybox just for us without Johnny Cishet trying to take it for themselves."
I want to again stress that I think it's clear that that's not your intention. Intentions aren't always what people see, or look for first, is the thing; and well-intentioned actions can still end up being hurtful. For example, if someone were actually trying to be a jerk and "steal the enbies' toys" - how would you know? How could you differentiate between "someone trying to learn more and be a better ally" and "someone maliciously trying to deny non-binary existence by saying 'lol was man all along'?" If you're serious and committed to this, maybe think about that question, and how you can be like the former, and not the latter.
So, at the end of the day, no one can...
I hear what you are saying, I understand, and I don't disagree. However, A few things to note:
1) My character wouldn't be cisgendered. Far from it, as a character character that starts off nonbinary and decides to experiment with another gender for a while, that is, I believe (I could be wrong here) genderfluid.
2)The only gender thing we know about Joro from the scenario comes from their 1-word definition in their statblock. The scenario makes no mention about how they see themselves, or each other. We get no in-universe information on their thoughts on gender, sexual preference, anything. I'd say that leaves people with plenty of . . .. for lack of a better term 'wiggle room.'
3) I was thinking about writing up a little card/speech and passing it around whenever I played with people who didn't know me about how I'm just making a fun JoJo's bizare adventure reference and I'm not trying to 'take anyone else's toys.' And if anyone takes umbrage with the idea how I would be more than happy to change characters. Do you think that would help?
My experience as a GM is that SFS scenarios feature minimal-to-zip potential "romance" (for reasons I imagine as perfectly reasonable in practice) so honestly a PC's gender, whatever it might be, rarely has any opportunity to factor into social encounters.
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My experience as a GM is that SFS scenarios feature minimal-to-zip potential "romance" (for reasons I imagine as perfectly reasonable in practice) so honestly a PC's gender, whatever it might be, rarely has any opportunity to factor into social encounters.
So we are talking about gender identity, what the character identifies as, not who the character finds attractive.
I think Joro might be asexual in terms of romantic interests. Their mind seems to be completely filled with nothing more than dad jokes, board games, and ultimate Frisbee golf.
But as a practical matter, how does their identity interact with the game at the table?
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I have had one transgender male character in PFS1 and I was very careful much as you mention in OP to ask others for insight, and how to approach it, and even when they were a thing went to panels at conventions addressing the issue.
It's Very Hard to avoid stereotypes, and equally difficult to avoid disrespect.
However, the pay-off in terms of my understanding was significant. There are people in Organized Play still that steadfastly stick to societal norms of an earlier era, and it's very disturbing to see them play out in contrast.
I have had a non-binary character in PFS1. Generally speaking they are fun to play, and it fits for them.
I have had two gender-fluid characters in PFS1.
One was a dramatic success in my opinion, the other a colossal failure that hit every single hot button without realizing it -- and someone pointed it out to me and I grew from it.
One other important factor to consider, because I've noticed this in games I've played both in-person and on-line:
Aside from reactionary folks that do not like the idea of people playing their characters and make no effort to hide it, there is a tendency in VTT and In-Person tables to start developing fatigue after four or five hours in a given event.
When this fatigue sets in, the players and GM start referring to the character as the gender of their player even when they are markedly different.
A recent table I played at, I and another player were playing a female characters, and at about the four-five hour point the slipping started.
The single female player at the table was playing a male character, and her character started getting referred to with female pronouns.
This 'fatigue' misgendering is more the players getting tired (and possibly stressed depending on the threat level of the adventure/event) than outright bigotry or intentional malice.
Generally speaking I'll bring it up once, then let it lie -- but if someone slips into outright bigotry then I'll either call them on it or shut up completely depending on how much good it feels like it would do.
...and in the cases of outright bigotry, make a determination to not play with those players again.
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Here's the thing: is it possible for a cis person with a single, static, gender to do an authentic, respectful, portrayal of a genderfluid person? Sure. Do I have confidence that a Joro JoJo Joke portrayed by someone who's in the earlier steps of their allyship journey is able to do that? No.
Coming from someone who isn't super informed on or experienced with gender issues, your justification of "well actually they went from enby to genderfluid, and now he's experimenting with being male" kinda sounds like a pretense; or, at worst, disingenuous. Have you thought about if, and how, that genderfluidity will inform the character, or how you'll explore it? Is your Jo-JoJo just going to be male forever?
3) I was thinking about writing up a little card/speech and passing it around whenever I played with people who didn't know me about how I'm just making a fun JoJo's bizare adventure reference and I'm not trying to 'take anyone else's toys.' And if anyone takes umbrage with the idea how I would be more than happy to change characters. Do you think that would help?
This demonstates awareness that "this could be offensive" which is great - but it's sort of entry-level allyship. Knowing you can offend people is the table stakes. The problem is, it still pushes the work to the oppressed. "Hey, let me know if you get offended." "Oh, you tell me if I'm going too far!" "I will stop if any of you think this is bad!" It's another one of those micro-aggressions one hears so much about. "I will behave as I think best, and it's up to The Others to tell me when that's a problem!" In a perfect world, you'd be super self-introspective and self-censoring and stop yourself before you do something offensive (and this is what I was getting at, re: maybe put this idea back on the shelf until you have more experience, history, knowledge, exposure, etc.) If you don't have the experience, knowledge, and expertise to do that - maybe now isn't the time to dabble in someone else's gender.
To be clear, this isn't an attack on you, VampByDay. It's stupid easy to inadvertently put your foot in the mouth. If you're not educated on these matters, it's so easy to say, do, or act in a way that's incredibly hurtful without realising it. And that's why the thrust of my message isn't "don't do this," but rather "don't do this now." This isn't something to be undertaken as a learning opportunity. And that brings me to...
It's Very Hard to avoid stereotypes, and equally difficult to avoid disrespect.
However, the pay-off in terms of my understanding was significant.
This raises a good point. Playing a PC different than oneself can be a good way to learn about other people, cultures, identities, all that good stuff. And that's good. But, if that personal growth comes at the cost of making mistakes at other peoples' expense? That's not ideal. (Sorry, not trying to pick on you Wagey :D)
Have you seen those posts about, for example, a parent with their child in line at a grocery store, seeing a person they've never been exposed to? Could be someone in a mobility device, or someone in a turban, or different coloured skin, or whatever. And the kid loudly exclaims "MOM LOOK AT THAT PERSON!" Most of the times, the Person doesn't want to take the time out of their day to explain to Child or Mom about their culture/identity/race/whatever. They're just buying dinner, right? It's not the Person's job to educate the Child. To put it plainly: "my gender isn't your learning opportunity."In a perfect world, and what basically every marginalised minority I know of asks, is that people educate themselves in ways that don't carry a very real risk of hurting or disrespecting others, and in ways that don't place the burden on the marginalised themselves. Like, I'm glad that folks can work and get a better sense of transness or genderfluid or whatever else; but if that came at the cost of hurting a trans gamer or a genderfluid gamer?
Like, people understand how that's not ok, right?
(Especially not in an organised play setting where you can walk up to a table with, literally, anyone :D)
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I think it's pretty clear you're trying to approach this from a place of growth, and broadening your horizons - and that's good! But, at the end of the day, intentions aside, you're boiling this down to "what if I took an LGBTQ2S+ person, and changed them to be what I am most comfortable with - a cisgender heterosexual dude."
Not really????? Its kind of an odd issue with the OP said that a person was described with only a single descriptor because technically speaking there are nonbinary people who fall under that umbrella.
EDIT:
I hate thinking about this. It always gives me a headache. Not that I don't think its important to talk about but more there is no easy definition of it. Like life its always a bit messy and complicated.
EDIT:
Not that I don't disagree with your advice but thinking about this issue really has begun to make me hate the use of single word descriptors because it doesn't really work.
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I personally think that if PF/SF/D&D can't be a safe place to experiment with and take chances on different identities and stories from our own, with the understanding that mistakes will happen, I don't know where that experimentation and chance-taking is supposed to happen.
I think you're basically describing a transmasc character, OP. It's okay if you want to play that kind of character, and I think the fact that the character has a lot of humor embedded is fine, because, well, it's D&D. D&D is silly and gender is ridiculous. You're portraying the character as a nonbinary person who's experimenting with he/him pronouns and a masculine gender. That struggle with gender is inherently queer, and this is never going to be "a cisgender heterosexual dude" you're playing.
I do think that it's worth considering that taking some steps outside your comfort zone might be fun, and might actually be a good place to practice thinking of someone as nonbinary. Again, D&D should be a safe space for that kind of thing. You might be pleasantly surprised.
That being said, it's good to ask the rest of the group how they feel about this. Experimentation shouldn't come at the expense of other members' comfort, and if you're worried a mistake-ridden portrayal of an nb character might make nb players uncomfortable, maybe it's not the best time to try something new.
EDIT: I guess where I fall on the "my gender identity isn't your learning opportunity" issue is here: My gender identity isn't someone's learning opportunity, but everyone has the right to make good-faith mistakes somewhere. I have the right to be annoyed or hurt by those mistakes, but that doesn't make the mistake-maker a bad actor.
Everyone starts somewhere, and for all I gripe about clueless cis people, there was a time a lot of people thought I was a clueless cis person, and I made all kinds of dumb mistakes when I was trying to experiment with identities I would eventually find myself a part of.
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This raises a good point. Playing a PC different than oneself can be a good way to learn about other people, cultures, identities, all that good stuff. And that's good. But, if that personal growth comes at the cost of making mistakes at other peoples' expense? That's not ideal. (Sorry, not trying to pick on you Wagey :D)
Have you seen those posts about, for example, a parent with their child in line at a grocery store, seeing a person they've never been exposed to? Could be someone in a mobility device, or someone in a turban, or different coloured skin, or whatever. And the kid loudly exclaims "MOM LOOK AT THAT PERSON!" Most of the times, the Person doesn't want to take the time out of their day to explain to Child or Mom about their culture/identity/race/whatever. They're just buying dinner, right? It's not the Person's job to educate the Child. To put it plainly: "my gender isn't your learning opportunity."In a perfect world, and what basically every marginalised minority I know of asks, is that people educate themselves in ways that don't carry a very real risk of hurting or disrespecting others, and in ways that don't place the burden on the marginalised themselves. Like, I'm glad that folks can work and get a better sense of transness or genderfluid or whatever else; but if that came at the cost of hurting a trans gamer or a genderfluid gamer?
Like, people understand how that's not ok, right?
(Especially not in an organised play setting where you can walk up to a table with, literally, anyone :D)
I won't argue that's it's less-than-ideal, and I don't take it as picking on me. I've been fighting some gawdsawful bug for the past few days and my cohesive commentary has been lacking.
What I will say is that when I was talking about 'payoff' was in that another player came up to me and outright asked me if I was trans IRL during a break because they were and they recognized the themes and steps I was using as a character in a respectful fashion.
Moreover,they appreciated the effort to do that.
I agree with you that there is a risk, but that conversation (and other game situations that have come up over the years) is what made me realize that my own preconceptions about myself IRL were shaky at best.
The tragedy here is not that we have to use a game to figure ourselves out.
It's that it's actively discouraged in one direction by folks who 'don't want to deal with that 'stuff' ' and on the other by folks who are fearing that 'any' harm will be 'all' harm.
I've never claimed perfection, but I've always tried to be a decent person and respectful of the tables I've played at.
Contributor
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I am playing my first real attempt at a non-binary character with my Joro. I love the Joros in part because they made playing a human exciting for me again. I've decided that my Joro loves wearing pretty things and makeup, but they also like a ton of things that are traditionally male hobbies. They're not hung up on this male and female thing that some cultures have, because any Joro can be or do anything they want. And I am totally an icon treasure hunter that learned all about the essentials of adventuring from video games, so I see Starfinder missions as one big video game, only with cooler graphics and effects.
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We know that 10 out of 10 surveyed Joros identified as non binary in their stat block while living in a social experiment where there was no male joro or female joros there was only Joros. We don't know that's what all 1,000? Joros thought, much less how they're all taking the revelation of male and female humans exist. So I don't think anyone has any legitimate grounds to have any complaints about how your Joro, your character, sees things.
This may be a case of less is more. Whatever your character DOES to show that they're nonbinary can hit those notes when it's on. If something is off, well, "the character is a clone from society where all the humans they knew were a monoclone of the same person but they're familiar with males and females of OTHER species so their concept of gender is a little different..." provides a heck of a lot of room for either error, or just your individual Joro being an individual.
One of the things science fiction and alternate realities do well is provide just enough distance to get a little perspective. Think startreks "Let this be your last battlefield" (the one with the black/white halfmoon cookie aliens). Watching it you easily reach the conclusion "these aliens are freaking stupid to be fighting over something this ridiculous" and the roughly as subtle as a brick message there is race is something silly to be fighting over.
If your character is explicitly nonbinary with a giant cue card explanation you lose a lot of that distance. If they are "Male? I think. It's complicated...(spoiler alert)." you lose a bit of nomenclature but I don't think lose much of the idea, but keep the cushion. A cushion you might need if you're going into Jojoros big adventure. I think either a Jojo jo Joros adventure joro or a critical examination of gender roles work as a character, I'm not sure how we'll they'll work together without some kind of buffer.
