Bloodrage, extreme mood swings and moment of greatness

Rules Questions


a quick rules question.

Bob the Bloodrager has a booze problem (extreme Mood swings feat) and a Bard Friend (Bill) who is certain that Bob is meant for greatness, and thus casts moment of greatness on Bob.

Bob Bloodrages and hits a nasty Lich. He wants to use Moment of greatness for this hit.

Does Bobs Strength increase by:

A) (4(Bloodrage) + 2 (extreme mood swings) )*2(doubled from moment of greatness) =12
B) 4(Bloodrage)*2(doubled from moment of greatness) + 2 (extreme mood swings) =10

Or in other words, do you first add up all morale boni to a stat and then double them, or do you first double and then add other boni?

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Good luck finding an exact answer to that one.

I'd go with the order in which the bonuses were added. If Bob got drunk first he would double all of the bonuses when using moment of greatness. If the spell was cast first and then he got drunk, then just add +2.

Two additional notes:
1. Don't forget that even when you aren't drunk Extreme Mood Swings gives a +1 to all morale bonuses. So bloodraging without being drunk makes your morale bonus +5. I can't see how that part wouldn't get doubled no matter what.

2. Extreme Mood Swings is (like all the other drinking feats in Inner Sea Taverns) intended to be used with the rules on drunkenness from that book. Because the penalty for reaching the "drunk" stage is −2 on ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, it's rarely worth it to actually deliberately get drunk for the extra morale bonus.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Math says multiply before you add, but that doesn't really help here.

Extreme mood swings would make your morale bonus from Bloodrage increase before being doubled by the spell. Just look at which order the different abilities are used.

Extreme Mood Swings doesn't do anything for you without a morale bonus.

Moment of Greatness does nothing for you without a morale bonus.

Bloodrage gives you a morale bonus... Extreme Mood Swings immediately increases it... Moment of Greatness doubles that...

PS. How would this combination work if interaction with Overwhelming Confidence from the Spiritualist's Pride Emotional Foci?

Unlike the spell Moment of Greatness, Overwhelming Confidence is just a thing that is active... doubling all morale bonuses as they appear. In this case, I would assume the doubling happens first, then Extreme Mood Swings would increase that.

Moment of Greatness would then double all of this!!!


Bloodrage (Su)

The bloodrager’s source of internal power grants him the ability to bloodrage.

At 1st level, a bloodrager can bloodrage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, he can bloodrage for 2 additional rounds per day. Temporary increases to Constitution (such as those gained from bloodraging or spells like bear’s endurance) don’t increase the total number of rounds that a bloodrager can bloodrage per day. The total number of rounds of bloodrage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours need not be consecutive.

A bloodrager can enter a bloodrage as a free action. While in a bloodrage, a bloodrager gains a +4 morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the bloodrager 2 hit points per Hit Die, but these disappear when the bloodrage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While bloodraging, a bloodrager cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

A bloodrager can end his bloodrage as a free action. When the bloodrage ends, he’s fatigued for a number of rounds equal to twice the number of rounds spent in the bloodrage. A bloodrager cannot enter a new bloodrage while fatigued or exhausted, but can otherwise enter bloodrage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a bloodrager falls unconscious, his bloodrage immediately ends, placing him in peril of death.

Bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s rage class feature for the purpose of feat prerequisites, feat abilities, magic item abilities, and spell effects.


Extreme Mood Swings

Your emotions sometimes get the better of you.

Benefit(s): Increase each morale bonus you receive by 1. You take a -1 penalty on saves against emotion and fear effects.

When you are drunk (or worse), this penalty doubles, but you increase each morale bonus you receive by 2 instead.


Moment of Greatness

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, cleric 1, psychic 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; Bloodline imperious 1


Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (rabbit fur)


Range 50 ft.
Target The caster and allies within a 50-ft. burst centered on the caster
Duration 1 minute/level or until discharged
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)


Each creature affected by this spell is given the potential for greater success and glory. If the affected creature is benefiting from a morale bonus of any type, it can double that morale bonus on one roll or check, before making the roll. Once an affected creature uses this spell’s effect, the spell is discharged for that subject.

I'd say:

Bloodrage +4 Morale Bonus to Str/Con
Extreme Mood Swings increases Bloodrage by +1. Being drunk increases it further to +2. (Bloodrage is a single morale effect, but equal to +6 Morale Bonus to Str/Con while drunk due to EMS)
Moment of Greatness doubles the Morale Bonus of any type (+6 Str/Con) to become +12 Str/Con for one attack/check.

My reasoning: the double double = x3 doesn't really fit here. So it wouldn't be (+4br*2mog) +2ems = 10 str/con. You're not doubling twice to get x3, but you're simply increasing the bonus of a class feature with a feat and THEN doubling it with a spell. So it makes more sense to me to go: (+4br+2ems)*2mog = 12 str/con.

Feel free to disagree, I'm not 100% positive, just my 2 coppers.

Dark Archive

Moment of greatness works on 1 roll.
Attack and damage are separate rolls.
If you use it on the attack roll, you don't get it on the damage roll and vice versa.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Belafon wrote:

I'd go with the order in which the bonuses were added. If Bob got drunk first he would double all of the bonuses when using moment of greatness. If the spell was cast first and then he got drunk, then just add +2.

I personally would not do this, for 3 reasons.

1) If I have to track the order of application of buffs, that starts to be to much bookkeeping, and is likely not the intent.
2) If we want to be strict about tracking order of buffs, if you cast MOG before the barbarian is even raging, then you get to multiply your current morale bonus of 0, right?
3) MOG doesn't care about when it was cast. It cares about the moment in time you want to expend it. Whatever morale bonuses you have at that point in time is what gets doubled for that roll.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Bloodrage, extreme mood swings and moment of greatness All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.