Mosquito Witch - hope of good things to come?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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So I just saw the Mosquito Witch Patron from Monsters of Myth. And I can't help but notice how similar the cantrip hex Buzzing Bites is to the Winter Witch hex Clinging Ice. Both do 1d4 damage per level with a saving throw. Same range, same target, same duration.

The difference is that Buzzing Bites makes it clear that the save is only rolled once and that result is used for the duration of the spell and that the damage that the spell does is repeated once each round when the spell is sustained.

Is anyone else hoping that Clinging Ice will get errata to make it work the same way?


Similarly, I hope needle of vengeance is also clarified if its save is rolled once or for each instance.


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I noticed this, too. Buzzing bites is definitely much better than Clinging Ice at this point. A one action d4/level "DoT" is something I'd consider a pretty good Hex cantrip. It might even be worth the loss of the fourth spell slot from the playtest.

If they change Clinging Ice to also deal damage every turn, I'm not sure which of the two would be better. Ice targets Reflex, which I think is usually lower than fort on average. It also debuffs on a fail, not only on a crit fail, but Bite's debuff is obviously a lot stronger. I think it balances out. It would also give Primal witches two somewhat similar (yet useful) choices with vastly different flavor.

If they do in fact bring Clinging Ice up to the same power level, I just hope they do the same with the other Hex cantrips. Except Fervor. That one's fine.


Blave wrote:
If they do in fact bring Clinging Ice up to the same power level, I just hope they do the same with the other Hex cantrips. Except Fervor. That one's fine.

That’s a concern I had too. It would noticeably leave much of the other hex cantrips behind.


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It's funny because my PFS Alchemist, who played Moskito Witch, has a Moskito Witch doll as a Familiar and was supposed to take the Witch Dedication with the Moskito Witch as a Patron (Fate or Curse Witch, but now I can actually take the Moskito Witch Patron!).

Sometimes, I have visions of the future. I must be an Oracle!


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batimpact wrote:
Blave wrote:
If they do in fact bring Clinging Ice up to the same power level, I just hope they do the same with the other Hex cantrips. Except Fervor. That one's fine.
That’s a concern I had too. It would noticeably leave much of the other hex cantrips behind.

And some of the other non-cantrip Hexes too. Looking at you Personal Blizzard.


Ooooooooh boy I'm excited to see that apg errata!

Scarab Sages

SuperBidi wrote:

It's funny because my PFS Alchemist, who played Moskito Witch, has a Moskito Witch doll as a Familiar and was supposed to take the Witch Dedication with the Moskito Witch as a Patron (Fate or Curse Witch, but now I can actually take the Moskito Witch Patron!).

Sometimes, I have visions of the future. I must be an Oracle!

Unfortunately, nothing from Monsters of Myth can currently be taken in PFS.

Character Options wrote:
All options are of standard availability unless specifically noted otherwise. As all items in this book are Rare or Unique, access is not granted without a boon indicating otherwise.

But maybe a boon will show up at some point.


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Blave wrote:
If they do in fact bring Clinging Ice up to the same power level, I just hope they do the same with the other Hex cantrips. Except Fervor. That one's fine.

Discern Secrets is reasonably good too. The only improvement I could see for it is having the bonus scale a bit. Maybe based on spell level, but more likely on either spellcasting proficiency of the Witch, or the training proficiency of the target's boosted skill.

So either +1 for trained spellcasting, +2 for expert spellcasting, and so on. Or +1 for trained in the skill, +2 for expert in the skill, and so forth.


Ferious Thune wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

It's funny because my PFS Alchemist, who played Moskito Witch, has a Moskito Witch doll as a Familiar and was supposed to take the Witch Dedication with the Moskito Witch as a Patron (Fate or Curse Witch, but now I can actually take the Moskito Witch Patron!).

Sometimes, I have visions of the future. I must be an Oracle!

Unfortunately, nothing from Monsters of Myth can currently be taken in PFS.

Character Options wrote:
All options are of standard availability unless specifically noted otherwise. As all items in this book are Rare or Unique, access is not granted without a boon indicating otherwise.
But maybe a boon will show up at some point.

I was planning to only take the Dedication. And the only thing it gives is common to all Primal Patron. So I don't think anyone will bother me if I say that my character is a Witch of the Moskito Witch. Just, now, it is a thing.


To me, although as written Clinging Ice appears to be not every time, I think it can be read either way and my guess on RAI was that it does (especially after seeing Mosquito).

I too am hopeful for the APG errata (please for the love of god remove the 2 action and non-cantrip hex restrictions from Eldritch Nails!!)


Midnightoker wrote:
please for the love of god remove the 2 action and non-cantrip hex restrictions from Eldritch Nails!!

That alone wouldn't help. I don't like being in melee range to begin with; my spell attack bonus is better than my melee attack bonus (even with the finesse trait, which the nails don't have); and giving up the partial effect on a successful save seems like a bad idea. And I think that the target would still get the save against the Hex even if I do manage to hit them with the nails.

But 1d6 damage on an unarmed attack isn't too bad. And there is the interesting ability to have handwraps with one set of runes and the nails etched with a different set of runes. If you have a second unarmed attack - such as Living Hair or even just punching - then you can choose which set of runes to attack with based on the unarmed attack used. But while that is interesting, I can't think of any Witches that would use melee attacks as anything except a last resort.


Eoran wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
please for the love of god remove the 2 action and non-cantrip hex restrictions from Eldritch Nails!!

That alone wouldn't help. I don't like being in melee range to begin with; my spell attack bonus is better than my melee attack bonus (even with the finesse trait, which the nails don't have); and giving up the partial effect on a successful save seems like a bad idea. And I think that the target would still get the save against the Hex even if I do manage to hit them with the nails.

But 1d6 damage on an unarmed attack isn't too bad. And there is the interesting ability to have handwraps with one set of runes and the nails etched with a different set of runes. If you have a second unarmed attack - such as Living Hair or even just punching - then you can choose which set of runes to attack with based on the unarmed attack used. But while that is interesting, I can't think of any Witches that would use melee attacks as anything except a last resort.

It actually would make a huge difference IMO because the biggest problem with the Feat is you can't even use it with a Hex until you get to Curse of Death.

While most Witches can't tread into melee, it at least makes it possible to try to build a melee witch and certainly with Elemental Betrayal on the table Martial MCD Witches would be able to finally pull of something close to a Hexblade. I know my Dhampir Swashbuckler Witch MCD would have been able to pull off the hexblade "bloody scourge of the seas" vibes with it.

Melee Witches could actually be an attempted build maybe, which I think would be interesting (Sentinel would help).

Would it be the most optimal feat? Maybe not, but it would at least not be a total trap!


Midnightoker wrote:

It actually would make a huge difference IMO because the biggest problem with the Feat is you can't even use it with a Hex until you get to Curse of Death.

Would it be the most optimal feat? Maybe not, but it would at least not be a total trap!

That might be the biggest problem, but it isn't the only one that makes it be a trap option. It still needs finesse instead of agile in order to have any meaningful accuracy on the attack roll. It also has the problem of double rolls - attack roll and saving throw - which quarters your chance of success.

The nails themselves are mostly fine as a weapon. Probably the best errata for Eldritch Nails would be to give it finesse instead of (or in addition to) agile and delete that entire second paragraph.

Maybe add a separate upgrade feat to allow delivering Hexes through the nails that works more like spellstrike. Use the result of the attack roll as the result of the saving throw as well as for the result of the spell attack depending on which the Hex uses.


breithauptclan wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:

It actually would make a huge difference IMO because the biggest problem with the Feat is you can't even use it with a Hex until you get to Curse of Death.

Would it be the most optimal feat? Maybe not, but it would at least not be a total trap!

That might be the biggest problem, but it isn't the only one that makes it be a trap option. It still needs finesse instead of agile in order to have any meaningful accuracy on the attack roll. It also has the problem of double rolls - attack roll and saving throw - which quarters your chance of success.

The nails themselves are mostly fine as a weapon. Probably the best errata for Eldritch Nails would be to give it finesse instead of (or in addition to) agile and delete that entire second paragraph.

Maybe add a separate upgrade feat to allow delivering Hexes through the nails that works more like spellstrike. Use the result of the attack roll as the result of the saving throw as well as for the result of the spell attack depending on which the Hex uses.

I don't know that it needs finesse, because I think STR Sentinel Witch would be the best way to take advantage of it anyways (and for MCD it matters even less). Agile at least allows swashbuckler/rogue use.

The upgrade feat would indeed be nice, but considering most hexes are save based, to me that'd be pretty strong (the Magus equivalent feat for save spells would mean this one would be in the 8/10 range).


Still not sure why you are wanting to tune the Witch feat so that a Swashbuckler or Rogue could use it. It needs finesse so that a Witch can use it.


Midnightoker wrote:
The upgrade feat would indeed be nice, but considering most hexes are save based, to me that'd be pretty strong (the Magus equivalent feat for save spells would mean this one would be in the 8/10 range).

Also, what Magus feat are you talking about? Expansive Spellstrike is a level 2 feat.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Still not sure why you are wanting to tune the Witch feat so that a Swashbuckler or Rogue could use it. It needs finesse so that a Witch can use it.

I'm not? I'm saying that it doesn't necessarily need it if the Witch goes STR, which a Witch could do.

Would finesse help? sure, absolutely, but if it had Finesse and 1 action hexes and cantrip hexes, it would start to go from "this is a trap" to "this is one of the strongest if not the strongest level 4 feats".

That said there is only 3 level 4 feats that are non-AP specific, so maybe that's a testament to the feats themselves.

I think the value of the changes I suggested allows nails to be used for niche builds, which to me is how I saw the feat getting used anyways. In general, I try to limit expectations when it comes to Paizo errata and I fully expect Eldritch Nails to get absolutely no changes given other feats in the line.

shrug

Quote:
Also, what Magus feat are you talking about? Expansive Spellstrike is a level 2 feat.

Yeah but the Magus's main thing is Spellstrike. If we compare this to say the Fighter's AoO and when others get it and Eldritch Nails being a level 4 Feat already, I'd assume 8th level is probably when that type of thing would come online.


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Midnightoker wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Still not sure why you are wanting to tune the Witch feat so that a Swashbuckler or Rogue could use it. It needs finesse so that a Witch can use it.
I'm not? I'm saying that it doesn't necessarily need it if the Witch goes STR, which a Witch could do.

Only if they also take the Sentinel or Champion archetype to get medium armor. Or enjoy dying a lot.

And taking archetypes is hard for a Witch because it means delaying Basic Lesson until level 4. Or level 6 if you want to get the Eldritch Nails at level 4. But maybe that will get fixed with errata too...


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breithauptclan wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Still not sure why you are wanting to tune the Witch feat so that a Swashbuckler or Rogue could use it. It needs finesse so that a Witch can use it.
I'm not? I'm saying that it doesn't necessarily need it if the Witch goes STR, which a Witch could do.

Only if they also take the Sentinel or Champion archetype to get medium armor. Or enjoy dying a lot.

And taking archetypes is hard for a Witch because it means delaying Basic Lesson until level 4. Or level 6 if you want to get the Eldritch Nails at level 4. But maybe that will get fixed with errata too...

Yeah I think the "big ask" so far has been Basic Lesson for free, Phase Familiar moved to a level 1 Class Feat.

Not only does that help level the playing field but it solves the level 2 Class Feat imbalance problem and opens the Witch up to Archetype choices as a realistic option.

If that happens, it becomes a little easier to support Sentinel, but like I said I'm not opposed to Finesse, just tempering expectations!


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With the errata being right around the corner (finally/hopefully/eventually), I think it might be prudent to wait for its release before speculating too much.


Blave wrote:
With the errata being right around the corner (finally/hopefully/eventually), I think it might be prudent to wait for its release before speculating too much.

And how many books have hype threads that show up before the book drops?


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All aboard for errata hype!!!!!!!!!!

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~~~~ _____ |~~~~~~~~~~~|
Y_,___|[] |_| Hypee Train! |
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//oo---OO=OO_OO__OO


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breithauptclan wrote:
Blave wrote:
With the errata being right around the corner (finally/hopefully/eventually), I think it might be prudent to wait for its release before speculating too much.
And how many books have hype threads that show up before the book drops?

Just all of them. :)

But new books are guaranteed to have tons of new stuff and we often get previews to base hype and theorycrafting on.

The Errata may or may not bring any witch changes. To the best of my knowledge, nothing has been announced either way.


I don’t know why but erratas are always hype for me. I remember being hyped for the Alchemist changes and I’ve never even played one at that point!


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PF2 errata is exciting since it's less "replace the word 'with' on page 217..." and more actual patches. Like they straight up gave the Alchemist medium armor proficiency.


Oh totally. Getting reimbursed for my hoarded bandoliers was pretty hype! Best patch ever.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
PF2 errata is exciting since it's less "replace the word 'with' on page 217..." and more actual patches. Like they straight up gave the Alchemist medium armor proficiency.

There is absolutely potential for greatness in a PF2 errata. But then again, other than the alchemist, all errata so far has been basically just bugfixes.

So while I'm excited to finally see what they are doing and hope for some good changes - including witch stuff - it's still far from guaranteed to happen.


Never forget the patch where Rogues suddenly got worse at tripping with a Kukri.

When do you all expect the APG errata to hit? Next month?


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roquepo wrote:

Never forget the patch where Rogues suddenly got worse at tripping with a Kukri.

When do you all expect the APG errata to hit? Next month?

I expected late december because the APG went back on sale at paizo's store around that time. Which probably means the second printing had arrived at the warehouse.

Since that obviously didn't happen, I'm hoping for next week. Aaron said they'd release it once they start shipping the second printing. With the warehouse closed for inventory this week, next week seems like a real possibility.


I came here for Mosquito Witch.

Carry on.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd say even money on Clinging Ice getting clarified to work like buzzing bites or the latter getting 6th pillar'd and we're told it's an editing mistake.


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It's pretty well known that a lot of the witch hex cantrips need help.

Not sure there's any way to save Wilding Word though.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I mean, there are a lot of people who think that, but there have been some vocal witch advocates who say that most of the cantrips are great. There was even a thread about primal witches with people extolling the virtues of clinging ice as one of the best class features in the game.


Even I am not that big of a Witch advocate.

I don't think that the Hex cantrips are all as bad as some have said. Several of them can be pressed into some sort of service.

Clinging Ice is on par with Force Bolt assuming that the target succeeds at the save: (1d4 * level) / 2 vs (1d4 + 1) * (level / 2).

Stoke the Heart is pretty good.
I can usually find use for Discern Secrets.
Spirit Object is a slightly nerf'ed version of Telekinetic Projectile with some additional utility out of combat like Mage Hand.

The rest are all really hard to come up with anything.


Stoke the heart is nice. Pick up witches charge for your favorite melee ally, heroism + stoke the heart and watch them go to town. Handy for your own blasting too.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
I can usually find use for Discern Secrets.

Discern secrets is an interesting one. +1 to RK and Seek is something that's going to be useful a lot, perhaps even moreso than some of the more obviously powerful options in the right kind of campaign.

But it's felt really bad for the couple of my players have tried the rune witch, because it just doesn't feel like it carries a ton of weight as the marquee signature ability of your entire class, which is more or less what these focus cantrips are. Lots of side eyeing wizards and grumbling about trading +1 to recall knowledge for extra spell slots, or about how their best ability is making sure someone else doesn't have to spend their action on RK.

TBH that latter part of the ability is pretty neat, being able to use your own actions but someone else's stats can be pretty powerful if someone else in the party has better things to do but has a good score in a skill the witch doesn't.

Nonetheless my players haven't really found the ability particularly inspiring.


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Squiggit wrote:
But it's felt really bad for the couple of my players have tried the rune witch, because it just doesn't feel like it carries a ton of weight as the marquee signature ability of your entire class, which is more or less what these focus cantrips are. Lots of side eyeing wizards and grumbling about trading +1 to recall knowledge for extra spell slots, or about how their best ability is making sure someone else doesn't have to spend their action on RK.

Yeah. If we can get errata to make Basic Lesson a class feature, then the matchup lines up differently. At that point the Hex Cantrip matches up against the Wizard School Spell focus spell and Basic Lesson Hex matches up against the Wizard School Spell slot. And that isn't a terrible matchup. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would still prefer the Wizard for Drain Bonded Item vs Witch Familiar. But the power difference isn't as large.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I dunno, I'm really liking Discern Secrets in Strength of Thousands, but that campaign is probably higher than average on the knowledge checks.


Spirit Object can benefit from flanking, which actually makes it better than TKP in some cases.


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Dubious Scholar wrote:
Spirit Object can benefit from flanking, which actually makes it better than TKP in some cases.

Well, the username checks out. ;-)

The arguments against this ruling are pretty strong. Flanking rules are rather biased towards being applicable to creatures only, and nothing in Spirit Object turns the item into a creature. There are several spells such as Spiritual Weapon that explicitly exclude themselves from providing flanking, and only one (Spiritual Guardian) that explicitly says that it provides flanking. None of the spells say that they benefit from flanking for their own attack rolls.

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