Flaying Tentacle Cloud


Rules Questions


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So..a bit background - you can skip if you like to.

my Sylvan trickster is just about hitting level 10 and getting ready for his advanced talents\major hexs

so far he was a blast, flying around with flight hex while wearing his Saltspray ring and using his 'Murksight' hex to see. He was a flying cloud raining arrows on his foes, sneak attacks and following effects included.

now that level 10 is almost here i was thinking of getting the major hex 'animal skin':

'Animal skin':
The witch can become any animal of a size from Tiny to Large whose skin she wears. This ability is similar to beast shape II, except she takes on the appearance of the specific individual from which the skin came.

and nabbing a giant octopus's skin to form the 'Dreaded flying Tentacle Cloud'. having the fog 10 ft just outside me would let me reach out with the tentacles (20 ft reach) for 8 attacks/round (not haste included) and the bite also has 10 ft reach which is still good for total concealment attacks. sneak attack galore!
(also combat reflexes with 20 ft reach and sneak, +2 to hit for being unseen at flat footed foes? geme geme geme)

as for the questions:

i can somewhat obtain a live giant octopus (1,800 gp) thanks to my GM allowing anything not illegal in the equipment lists to be available with enough time & RP.

1: it seem to me that skinning the whole thing would yield a skin just about as big as a tent (10x10 tent to be exact). not something i can easily wear, is it all necessary?

2: if the entire skin is not needed, can i just skin a live one and let it go? octopus regenerate from stuff like this amazingly well in real life.

3: how much would you price it if i only need the skin of the octopus (it can even be old\about to be cooked\etc) rather then a live specimen?
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p.s. - what do'ya think about the thread's name? ;)

Liberty's Edge

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1) I don't think so, but I would require something on the size of a cape, with dangling pieces of tentacles. That can cause problems with hearing cloaks.

2) I suppose you could. It seems very painful.

3) If you can get to a seaport, some hundred of GP, it all depends on how the GM manages the economy in his game. You are trying to buy something unusual, so people will raise the price.

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4) Sorry, but I must point out a problem with your idea: an octopus, in Pathfinder, is an aquatic animal, so it breathes only water and starts suffocating immediately in the air. Fighting while holding your breath will limit your endurance greatly.

5) Seeing how the Saltspray ring works, I would have problems with your use of the bow. Your bow and arrows would be constantly drenched in water, so I would have them affected as if using them while it rains (-4 to hit).

P.S.: title, it reminds me of a Flumph.


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About #4:
You need to remmember that pathfinder changed polymorph. You are not turning into the creature like in 3.5 anymore. You gain some of its abilities.
In case of water breathing creatures you gain the ability to breath in water as long as it got swim speed. You never got the aquatic type with this spell so your air breathing remain the same

As for #5
The ring say what it effect. As nothing in fog cloud ever mention it effecting bows. And the ring itslef mention how it effect or not creatures that need water or the counter kind of them. Nothing about drenched bows was ruled into it.
At most id be needing to spare some in game rp to maintain my bow. Also i got prestigitation from minor magic talent. So it helps.

Liberty's Edge

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4) Not a matter of type, it is a matter of how polymorph works:

Quote:
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

So you get water breathing.

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You lose your lugs (an octopus hasn't them) when you change form. Breathing isn't exactly an extraordinary ability, but having a hand and being able to grasp something isn't an extraordinary ability and you still lose the ability to grasp something in your hand if you become a fish.

5) Sure, the ring description doesn't consider all possible interactions, but it says: "This mist is exceedingly wet and extinguishes all nonmagical fires within its area."
We are speaking of a lot of water. Unprotected stuff will be soggy.

No version of D&D (AFAIK) spelled what happens when you expose arrows, bows, and bowstrings to soggy conditions, but in RL you have to protect them or they will become useless very rapidly.

It is a matter of playing a somewhat realistic game or throwing that idea away.
I prefer keeping some degree of realism.

To make an extreme example, but one that was made in this forum, when someone argues that spending 200 years building spellcasting 16 hours a day without rest to build a demiplane is normal, my reply is that it is possible, but the guy doing that is very, very far away from normal.

With the ring, it is way less extreme, but something that can quench a bonfire or a pire isn't a fine veil of mist.

Liberty's Edge

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Sorry, but the whole thing will not work, the ring is an activated magic item, so it stops functioning when you take an animal shape:

Quote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
Quote:
Upon command, the ring causes a thick vapor to continuously surround its owner


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as i mentioned in the pm. i don't use the item after shapeshifting, it's a continuous effect triggered before changing shape.

unless you say changing shape stops stuff like invisibility from ring of invisibility etc.
i can't use it again until i return to my shape (if it get dispelled or fireballed), but that is something else. (it "provide constant (sorta?)bonuses and do not need to be (re)activated")

hack the words say "Upon command, the ring causes a thick vapor to continuously surround its owner" not wearer nothing actually say i must keep wearing the ring, once i use it, to keep the fog up - i only need to own it. (i can just keep it in a belt pouch, that i drop before, and carry it while shape changed)


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Even if it isn’t legit to use the ring while polymorphed there is a way around the problem. If you acquire a familiar with a ring slot you could place the ring on them and then use the command word and then polymorph. As long as the familiar was in your square the effect would be the same.


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As for required water breathing not being a function of type/subtype here is a quote from the aquatic subtype “These creatures always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe water. It cannot breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality. Aquatic creatures always treat Swim as a class skill.” The requirement to breath only water (unless amphibious) is a function of subtype not form. Even If you had a creature SHAPED like a fish and it did not possess the aquatic subtype then by default it would breathe air not water. Dolphins have a very fish-like form and live in the water but they breathe air because they do not possess the aquatic subtype. I don’t see text in the rules of either polymorph or beast shape that directly states you must breathe water when polymorphed into the SHAPE of an aquatic creature especially since your natural type/subtype does not change.


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yea, no problem with brathing.
since i never get the aquatic type when i beast shape it's not a problem anyway. polymorph in pathfinder (beside the baleful) is not the same as earlier editions where you became the thing you changed into, you just get some of their abilities. beast shape doesn't give sub-types. if the creature can swim you get to breath in water. if it can tunnel or move under earth you get to breath there too. is in the magic chapter. so even changing into something that is aquatic , all i get is ability to breath in water. i never loose my normal air breathing ability.


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Agreed


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I really like ur build idea. May have to steal it (or some version of it) :)


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zza ni wrote:


hack the words say "Upon command, the ring causes a thick vapor to continuously surround its owner" not wearer nothing actually say i must keep wearing the ring, once i use it, to keep the fog up - i only need to own it. (i can just keep it in a belt pouch, that i drop before, and carry it while shape changed)

The rules on magic rings in general state:

Magic Rings wrote:


Rings bestow magical powers upon their wearers.

If you aren't wearing it, no magical powers are granted to you. Taking a ring off is the equivalent of deactivating the ring. eg, remove a ring of invisibility, invisibility ends. Remove a ring of saltspray, mist cloud ends.


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dude general vs specific.

rings bestow magic power upon their wearers, is general.
the force shield ring for or the ram ring for example both do not 'bestow power to the wearer' they have specific magical abilities that manifest otherwise.
the general rule is the ring effect the wearer, here is a specific ring that effect the owner. to activate that power you need to wear it, since it's a slotted item with activation use, but since it's not a 'power bestowed upon the wearer', once activated nothing say not wearing it remove it. by strict raw.

so ether way since im not removing it and it meld into my form. 1 can say it's a continues effect item that should still be active. an even if it's not, the continuous effect that is mentioned is effecting the owner not the wearer so it still shouldn't matter.


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1) General vs specific does not apply here. You can be both the owner and the wearer of the ring. Being the owner does not preclude the wearing requirement, and nothing in the text suggests it does.

On a side note, owner and wearer are plainly meant as synonmous terms here. Or would you like to suggest that if you buy the ring, and a thief steals it and activates the ring, the cloud will still form around you, the owner of the ring, and follow you around?

2) I have no idea where you are going with your ring of the ram or ring of force shield examples.

Ring of the Ram wrote:


The wearer can command the ring to give forth a ram-like force...

That sounds a lot like the ring wearer is being granted a power they would not normally have.

Ring of Force Shield wrote:


This ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC).

That also sounds very much like a ability granted to the wearer they would not normally have (eg, the ability to use a force field as a heavy shield).

And of course the ring of saltspray grants a persistent cloud of mist around its wearer, which the wearer can turn on or off. So it also is a power granted to the wearer by the ring.

Quote:


... it meld into my form. 1 can say it's a continues effect item that should still be active. an even if it's not, the continuous effect that is mentioned is effecting the owner not the wearer so it still shouldn't matter.

You may have an argument to make here, that it being melded into your form when you polymorph doesn't cause it to no longer be active. I'll let someone more familiar with polymorph rules argue out this one.

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