Can an Unchained Monk have Qinggong Monks Diamond Soul


Rules Questions


My apologies for asking a lot of Monk related questions recently. Hopefully my formatting makes them helpful for other people int he future.

The Unchained Monk has access Qinggong Monk Ki Powers

D20 wrote:
Qinggong Power (Su): A monk with this power selects any of the qinggong monk ki powers for which he qualifies based on his monk level. A monk can select this ability multiple times. Each time, he must select a different qinggong monk ki power.

Both of these classes have access to something called 'Diamond Soul'

The Unchained Monk @Level 12

D20 wrote:
Diamond Soul (Ex): A monk can spend 2 points from his ki pool as a swift action to gain spell resistance equal to his monk level + 10. This spell resistance lasts for a number of rounds equal to the monk’s level. A monk must be at least 12th level before selecting this ki power.

Qinggong Monk @Level 14

D20 wrote:
At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to his current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.

The Qinggong Monks version is considerably stronger than the Unchained version. My question is, can I get the Qinggong Monk ability through the Qinggong Ki Power from the Unchained Monk?


i would say that, if he doesn't already have the unchained monk version, he can, BUT he would get the unchained monk version.

for same reason i wouldn't let an unchained rogue take the talent 'ninja trick' and take with that the 'rogue talent' ninja trick to get a chained rogue talent that the unchaiend rogue didn't allow in it's list.
(say an unchined rogue wants the 'bomber' talent that chained rogues can take but is not listed in his list, so he take the talent 'ninja trick' get with it the trick 'rogue talent' and with that goes for 'bomber')

there is a reason they changed this specific ability, if you want it so much take the chained class you unchained from...

Liberty's Edge

UM wrote:

14th-Level Ki Powers

...
diamond soul (monk ability)

The Qinggong Monk ability gives the monk ability. If your character is an Unchained Monk, he gets the Unchained Monk version, as that is the Monk ability for him.


You're actually explicitly adviced to use the core version, the text is just omitted from both the AoN and the d20pfsrd version: "Monk Abilities: Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook." UM pg. 52


Derklord wrote:
You're actually explicitly adviced to use the core version, the text is just omitted from both the AoN and the d20pfsrd version: "Monk Abilities: Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook." UM pg. 52

Brilliant news, so I can have permanent spell resistance, which is great

Liberty's Edge

Minigiant wrote:
Derklord wrote:
You're actually explicitly adviced to use the core version, the text is just omitted from both the AoN and the d20pfsrd version: "Monk Abilities: Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook." UM pg. 52
Brilliant news, so I can have permanent spell resistance, which is great

Monk Abilities: Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook." UM pg. 52

It says "some", but Diamond Body is specifically modified in Unchained.

Unchained wrote:
Diamond Body (Su): By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk with this power can remove one toxin from his body as if using neutralize poison, using his monk level as his caster level. He can remove only one poison in this way per use of this ability. A monk must be at least 8th level before selecting this ki power.

You need some complex mental contortion to say that you should use the CRB version when the book you have in hand and the class you are using have a modified version.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Monk Abilities: Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook." UM pg. 52

It says "some", but Diamond Body is specifically modified in Unchained.

Unless you want to claim that the writer of the archetype was a psychic able to look into the future to proof the archetype gainst the unchained monk made four years later, the word "some" clearly refers to those powers that aren't SLAs or feats. The archetype seperates the powers to chose from into three categories, with the class ability category explicitly referring to those in the CRB. Every single qinggong power must be in one of the three categories.

Liberty's Edge

Minigiant wrote:
Brilliant news, so I can have permanent spell resistance, which is great

You should remember that permanent spell resistance applies to all spell you don't cast. You need a standard action to suppress it, and another standard action each following turn to keep it suppressed.

Getting healed by a wand of CLW? CL 1 vs. SR 24+, start spending actions.

Drinking a potion? You aren't the caster.

Quote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect — the caster who brewed the potion has already done so.

Suppressing SR is a standard action, drinking a potion is another standard action. RAW you can't use them.

Permanent SR can be a problem.

Liberty's Edge

Derklord wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Monk Abilities: Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook." UM pg. 52

It says "some", but Diamond Body is specifically modified in Unchained.

Unless you want to claim that the writer of the archetype was a psychic able to look into the future to proof the archetype gainst the unchained monk made four years later, the word "some" clearly refers to those powers that aren't SLAs or feats. The archetype seperates the powers to chose from into three categories, with the class ability category explicitly referring to those in the CRB. Every single qinggong power must be in one of the three categories.

No, I am saying that the Unchained Monk isn't using the archetype Qinggong Monk, he is using the unchained monk Ki Power "Qinggong Power", and how that Unchained Monk power works is dependant from the Unchained rules first. Only when Unchained hasn't relevant rules do you default to the CRB.

BTW, you can't take the Qinggong Monk archetype if you are playing an Unchained Monk.

Unchained wrote:
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Minigiant wrote:
Brilliant news, so I can have permanent spell resistance, which is great

You should remember that permanent spell resistance applies to all spell you don't cast. You need a standard action to suppress it, and another standard action each following turn to keep it suppressed.

Getting healed by a wand of CLW? CL 1 vs. SR 24+, start spending actions.

Drinking a potion? You aren't the caster.

Quote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect — the caster who brewed the potion has already done so.

Suppressing SR is a standard action, drinking a potion is another standard action. RAW you can't use them.

Permanent SR can be a problem.

i agree with almost everything you mentioned but one - using your own items does not conflict with spell resistance.

from the spell resistance rules (in the magic section of the crb. page 565):

"...A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.."

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Minigiant wrote:
Brilliant news, so I can have permanent spell resistance, which is great

You should remember that permanent spell resistance applies to all spell you don't cast. You need a standard action to suppress it, and another standard action each following turn to keep it suppressed.

Getting healed by a wand of CLW? CL 1 vs. SR 24+, start spending actions.

Drinking a potion? You aren't the caster.

Quote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect — the caster who brewed the potion has already done so.

Suppressing SR is a standard action, drinking a potion is another standard action. RAW you can't use them.

Permanent SR can be a problem.

i agree with almost everything you mentioned but one - using items do not conflict with spell resistance.

from the spell resistance rules (in the magic section of the crb. page 565)
"...
A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.."

But when you use a potion, it is a spell or a item?

CRB wrote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber.

and

Quote:
A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities..

It can be read both ways. For quiet living, your interpretation is better. But what matter is the interpretation of the GM at the table.


the same is also right for almost every other spell 'casting' items (not talking about spell completing which is you casting the spell anyway through the item). they almost always mention that the ITEM is the one casting the spell.

in fact, it is be pretty uncommon to find an item that let you cast the spell yourself.

so your interruption kinda kill that line about items for around 90%+ of the items.

look at it this way. if it's an item that let you cast the spell it is you who cast the spell (and as such fall under 'own spells &\or abilities'). so when does the effect of the item casting the spell come up if it's not...well..the ITEM casting it?!?

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:

the same is also right for almost every other spell 'casting' items (not talking about spell completing which is you casting the spell anyway through the item). they almost always mention that the ITEM is the one casting the spell.

in fact, it is be pretty uncommon to find an item that let you cast the spell yourself.

so your interruption kinda kill that line about items for around 90%+ of the items.

look at it this way. if it's an item that let you cast the spell it is you who cast the spell (and as such fall under 'own spells &\or abilities'). so when does the effect of the item casting the spell come up if it's not...well..the ITEM casting it?!?

Probably it is a forma mentis from AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, but I see a difference between "spell in a can" items (potions and wands, mostly) and "items that have an effect that works as a spell".

Pathfinder has simplified that, so your interpretation is more coherent with the general rules.

A curio: the Githzerai in AD&D (2nd edition, I think) had a magic resistance that extended to items. The first time a Githzerai did take up a magic item (even armors and weapons), he had to check his magic resistance. If the resistance roll was a failure the item did work for him forever, if it was a success the item was a non-magical item in his hands.
As the race had a magical resistance that increased with the level, higher-level characters had a 100% chance of making the roll, so they had to keep the older items to be sure to have working magic items.


Diego Rossi wrote:

But when you use a potion, it is a spell or a item?

CRB wrote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber.

and

Quote:
A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities..
Quote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect). The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

It doesn't matter whether its a spell or item, they either counts as the caster of the spell (and thus ignores their own SR as per the rules for SR), or the potion counts as an item and ignores SR.

They merely do not get to make any decisions about the spell in the potion.


Diego Rossi wrote:


A curio: the Githzerai in AD&D (2nd edition, I think) had a magic resistance that extended to items. The first time a Githzerai did take up a magic item (even armors and weapons), he had to check his magic resistance. If the resistance roll was a failure the item did work for him forever, if it was a success the item was a non-magical item in his hands.
As the race had a magical resistance that increased with the level, higher-level characters had a 100% chance of making the roll, so they had to keep the older items to be sure to have working magic items.

IIRC 1e dwarves (and gnomes?) had this problem as well.


Diego Rossi wrote:
No, I am saying that the Unchained Monk isn't using the archetype Qinggong Monk, he is using the unchained monk Ki Power "Qinggong Power", and how that Unchained Monk power works is dependant from the Unchained rules first. Only when Unchained hasn't relevant rules do you default to the CRB.

Except it has absolutely nothing to do with "defaulting" to the CRB, you are explicitly told to use the CRB. You demand that we flat out ignore the text the archetype gives on how monk ability powers work.

The problem with that is that without the archetype text, we don't know how any of the powers function. They don't have descriptions, only the archetype text tells us to use the feat, spell (as an SLA) or class feature of the same name. And we can't just use most text but ignore the part that explicitly says the monk abilities are found in the CRB just because you don't like that part - it's all or nothing.

Congratulations, in your desperate attempt to not having to admit that you were wrong* you created an interpretation that makes the "Qinggong Power" ki power non-functional.

*) Which wouldn't have been a big deal, as the AoN text is erroneous, and people don't get faulted for using that.

Diego Rossi wrote:
You need some complex mental contortion to say that you should use the CRB version when the book you have in hand and the class you are using have a modified version.

What you need "complex mental contortion" for is to take the term "standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook" and claim that you are supposed to use the monk abilities described in a different book.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Drinking a potion? You aren't the caster.

Incorrect. "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect" CRB pg. 477

Aside form that, I actually agree that permanent spell resistance is problematic, and view the unMonk version of Diamond Soul as stronger, as it makes getting buffed at the start of combat much easier. Even for pre-buffing if time is short and the Monk wants to activate abilities like vested powers.

The Exchange

The answer to the original question is "it looks like you can, in fact, trace a chain of rules to get the CRB monk's version of Diamond Soul instead of the Unchained monk's. However it's probably not intended that you can get a stronger version than the one printed in Unchained."

Chain:
1.

Unchained page 18 - Monk ki powers wrote:
Qinggong Power (Su): A monk with this power selects any of the qinggong monk ki powers (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 51) for which he qualifies based on his monk level.
2.
Ultimate Magic page 51 - Qinggong monk abilities wrote:
Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook. Even if a qinggong monk selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability, she can select that monk ability later as one of her ki powers.
3.
Ultimate Magic page 52 - 14th-Level Ki Powers wrote:
...diamond soul (monk ability)...

So the logic chain works, but if you take a step back and think about it honestly it's a near certainty that this particular usage wasn't intended.

Liberty's Edge

Belafon wrote:

The answer to the original question is "it looks like you can, in fact, trace a chain of rules to get the CRB monk's version of Diamond Soul instead of the Unchained monk's. However it's probably not intended that you can get a stronger version than the one printed in Unchained."

Chain:
1.

Unchained page 18 - Monk ki powers wrote:
Qinggong Power (Su): A monk with this power selects any of the qinggong monk ki powers (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 51) for which he qualifies based on his monk level.
2.
Ultimate Magic page 51 - Qinggong monk abilities wrote:
Some ki powers are standard monk abilities described in the Core Rulebook. Even if a qinggong monk selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability, she can select that monk ability later as one of her ki powers.
3.
Ultimate Magic page 52 - 14th-Level Ki Powers wrote:
...diamond soul (monk ability)...
So the logic chain works, but if you take a step back and think about it honestly it's a near certainty that this particular usage wasn't intended.

I think that step 4. and 5. are necessary:

4. Diamond soul (monk ability) was changed by successive products?
Yes/No -> Yes

5. My build uses the successive product in which diamond soul (monk ability) was changed?
Yes/No -> Yes

Then I should use the newest version.

It is the same logic that has you using the updated versions of feats, spells and archetypes even if you have a book with the older version.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Belafon wrote:

It is the same logic that has you using the updated versions of feats, spells and archetypes even if you have a book with the older version.

Except it isn't. This is updated rules directly referencing older rules

Liberty's Edge

Minigiant wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


It is the same logic that has you using the updated versions of feats, spells and archetypes even if you have a book with the older version.

Except it isn't. This is updated rules directly referencing older rules

Only if you stop the chain because it is convenient. You are using Unchained, but only when you find it convenient. Then you go and use a rule written 4 years before as it is more convenient.

The Exchange

Minigiant wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Belafon wrote:

It is the same logic that has you using the updated versions of feats, spells and archetypes even if you have a book with the older version.

Except it isn't. This is updated rules directly referencing older rules

Please be careful when editing quoted text, particularly nested quotes. It can lead to misattribution and confusion about a poster's viewpoint. I did not say what this quote says I did.

The correct quote is as Diego posted above:

Minigiant wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
It is the same logic that has you using the updated versions of feats, spells and archetypes even if you have a book with the older version.
Except it isn't. This is updated rules directly referencing older rules


The unchained rules aren't really meant to be used RAW. They are suggestions to be implemented by a GM as they see fit. In this case, it seems pretty obvious that the unchained version of Diamond Soul is what is meant to be available to the Unchained monk. Otherwise, the unchained monk version would be exactly the same as the Quinggong version.

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