Do any parts of Golarion's history map to the Bronze Age Collapse?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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I'm studying up on ancient history (and reading Island in the Sea of Time) and it seems like a fascinating period. Any suggestions, either to a similar period in the canon history or where one could be inserted?
I haven't seen vast amounts on Ninshabur in the core books, but it seems like my best bet. Are there any books that go into more detail? And did it ever get near Osirion during the time when its borders were at their height? What other cultures and kingdoms were in the region at the time?


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Are you focusing on the Bronze Age or the widespread collapse?
With all of Golarion's major empires and ancient species, I don't think any time period qualifies for the former. Technology's always been skewed from Earth norms, with metallurgy in particular quite advanced. And the empires have outstripped anything from our Bronze Age so you might have to find a time after one fractured, yet I wouldn't say there's anything bronze about that.
As for the latter, there are many instances depending on what flavor of destruction you'd prefer or how much chaos.

Perhaps if you listed/ranked which aspects you'd like to include then it might be easier to answer. PCs don't usually operate at the scales/scope/timeframe we're talking about (unless trying to prevent it as a campaign arc!) so which bits were you thinking would be part of their narrative? And before, during, after?

I imagine one could tune Kingmaker to fit that motif, rising after the fall, or perhaps protecting one's kingdom from said collapse. Conan's setting might work as well (if there are any RPG materials still available that is). And depending.


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Castilliano wrote:

Are you focusing on the Bronze Age or the widespread collapse?

With all of Golarion's major empires and ancient species, I don't think any time period qualifies for the former. Technology's always been skewed from Earth norms, with metallurgy in particular quite advanced. And the empires have outstripped anything from our Bronze Age so you might have to find a time after one fractured, yet I wouldn't say there's anything bronze about that.
As for the latter, there are many instances depending on what flavor of destruction you'd prefer or how much chaos.

Perhaps if you listed/ranked which aspects you'd like to include then it might be easier to answer. PCs don't usually operate at the scales/scope/timeframe we're talking about (unless trying to prevent it as a campaign arc!) so which bits were you thinking would be part of their narrative? And before, during, after?

I imagine one could tune Kingmaker to fit that motif, rising after the fall, or perhaps protecting one's kingdom from said collapse. Conan's setting might work as well (if there are any RPG materials still available that is). And depending.

Yes, less of a "prevent this" and more of a "survive this and lay the foundations for society's rebirth". Kingdom rules could be handy, though my attempts to graft them onto 2e always feel clunky.

I suppose the collapse of a bunch of ancient, sophisticated city-states in the face of environmental crisis and rampaging refugees is what fascinated me. Egypt knocked out of its golden age, Mycenae, Ugarit, Hattusha all wiped out over a span of mere years... I suppose one could substitute "Spawn of Rovagug" for "super volcano ". Didn't the Tarrasque take out the Ninshabur civilization? I should look at the timeline of when the various Spawn were devastating Garund. If Ulinat & Xotani vs Osirion and Tarrasque v Ninshabur roughly line up, I may have a thing. And for low-level mooks, I'm sure Rovagug's cult spikes in activity whenever its Spawn are active.


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I would say the Earthfall and subsequent Age of Darkness are pretty easy to compare wirh the bronze age collapse


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RaptorJesues wrote:
I would say the Earthfall and subsequent Age of Darkness are pretty easy to compare wirh the bronze age collapse

That'd been my first thought, but I haven't found much information about Casmaron before Earthfall. Are there any sources out there?

And, of course, setting it in a time with Ninshabur and Ancient Osirion around contributes to the aesthetics of the period rather handily.

Scarab Sages

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Wonky Chewbacca wrote:
RaptorJesues wrote:
I would say the Earthfall and subsequent Age of Darkness are pretty easy to compare wirh the bronze age collapse

That'd been my first thought, but I haven't found much information about Casmaron before Earthfall. Are there any sources out there?

And, of course, setting it in a time with Ninshabur and Ancient Osirion around contributes to the aesthetics of the period rather handily.

Osirion was established in the Age of Destiny and is predated by the Jistka Imperium. I don't think much has been written on pre-Earthfall Casmaron, so you'd be writing it yourself.

Remember that the purpose of Earthfall was to separate the setting into history and pre-history.


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A game where the magic doesn't exceed modern technology that would allow the powers in the world to have far more powerful technology than a real Bronze Age World.

D&D worlds are places where priests cure diseases with magic, heal instantly, and raise the dead. Magic users can create things out of thing air. Even alchemists can manipulated chemicals to do incredible things beyond modern day tech.

I get you sort of want to use some historical inspiration for culture creation. But you'll always have to acknowledge D&D worlds would make our modern technology seem just ok.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

A game where the magic doesn't exceed modern technology that would allow the powers in the world to have far more powerful technology than a real Bronze Age World.

D&D worlds are places where priests cure diseases with magic, heal instantly, and raise the dead. Magic users can create things out of thing air. Even alchemists can manipulated chemicals to do incredible things beyond modern day tech.

I get you sort of want to use some historical inspiration for culture creation. But you'll always have to acknowledge D&D worlds would make our modern technology seem just ok.

I think the big difference there is ubiquity. Sure, Remove Disease is handier than a regimen of antibiotics, but you're not necessarily goimg to have temples that stock level 5 clerics every dfew blocks, and paying for a spell is way more pricey (probably, tryimg to convert GP to USD is a rabbit hole to fall down). Raising the dead in particular rarely gets a mention, outside of PCs and (rather more infrequently) enemies of PCs. In some settings or eras, magic may be rarely available to the man in the street, with clerics mostly occupied in ritual, temple politics, and waiting on nobles, while arcane casters are either sequestered away with their own otherworldly concerns, or simpy feared and misunderstood.

On the other end of the spectrum is Eberron, which while made of purest awesome is about as far from what I'm aiming for here as one can get without digging my father's Spelljammer books out of the closet.
TL:DR, I think one can absolutely run a game that invokes the Bronze Age or Neolithic, you just need to keep in mind that magic can be on a slider just like technology.

Liberty's Edge

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The time between Earthfall and Old-Man Jatembe was likely the closest to a Collapsed Golarion we can imagine : no Arcane casters, an Age of Darkness, Azlant gone, deities dead and a new Evil dark god claiming a people and their territory for himself.


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Wonky Chewbacca wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

A game where the magic doesn't exceed modern technology that would allow the powers in the world to have far more powerful technology than a real Bronze Age World.

D&D worlds are places where priests cure diseases with magic, heal instantly, and raise the dead. Magic users can create things out of thing air. Even alchemists can manipulated chemicals to do incredible things beyond modern day tech.

I get you sort of want to use some historical inspiration for culture creation. But you'll always have to acknowledge D&D worlds would make our modern technology seem just ok.

I think the big difference there is ubiquity. Sure, Remove Disease is handier than a regimen of antibiotics, but you're not necessarily goimg to have temples that stock level 5 clerics every dfew blocks, and paying for a spell is way more pricey (probably, tryimg to convert GP to USD is a rabbit hole to fall down). Raising the dead in particular rarely gets a mention, outside of PCs and (rather more infrequently) enemies of PCs. In some settings or eras, magic may be rarely available to the man in the street, with clerics mostly occupied in ritual, temple politics, and waiting on nobles, while arcane casters are either sequestered away with their own otherworldly concerns, or simpy feared and misunderstood.

On the other end of the spectrum is Eberron, which while made of purest awesome is about as far from what I'm aiming for here as one can get without digging my father's Spelljammer books out of the closet.
TL:DR, I think one can absolutely run a game that invokes the Bronze Age or Neolithic, you just need to keep in mind that magic can be on a slider just like technology.

I don't think it would work like that myself. Given how the real world works, some powerful magic user would use magic to advance the world in a fantasy magic world. There would be a huge number of priests given the number of gods allowing the use of magic to improve and care for the world.

Then there would be entrepreneurial casters making money using their magic to create things no one else much has on a mass level.

I think a world where the magic was this powerful would create a very different world from the modern, especially with a race like elves who live a 1000 years and dwarves who live 300 to 400 and the like. I think the technology would be highly advanced. This idea that elves are just lazy because they're long lived is not one I must believe. Elves would be constantly busy improving the world and caring for it to make it better.

I don't expect a Bronze Age in a high magical world. Metallurgy would not be the power in the world.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:


I don't think it would work like that myself. Given how the real world works, some powerful magic user would use magic to advance the world in a fantasy magic world. There would be a huge number of priests given the number of gods allowing the use of magic to improve and care for the world.

I don't think that a huge number of level 1-4 clerics would actually have quite as significant an impact on the setting as you imply. Even if we buy the premise that a large number of gods automatically generates a large number of clerics (mind you that not every priest or religious leader of a deity's religion is a cleric or even a spellcaster), it must be acknowledged that not every one of these clerics will be able to reach especially high levels. The higher the level the fewer the clerics, and without the conveniences of modern society, who is to say that even those clerics who exist will have the time to devote to advancing their clerical studies when survival remains a primary need. Adventurers level up rapidly in the face of adversity, but adventurers are the exception--dying horribly is a much more common activity.

Mind you I do expect magic to have a significant impact on a setting, but I don't think we should assume that the existence of magic and the proliferation of magic, especially at such an early point in the timeline (post-Earthfall) are the same thing. I support the notion that magic would inevitably advance civilization in various ways but for example, the art of wizardry and arcane magic was lost for almost 2000 year post-Earthfall. We should not take the existence of a spell for easy access to that spell, especially for the common folk of a psuedo-Bronze Age society.

---

In more direct response to OP, I've found entertainment trying to map regions of human history to relative dates of Golarion history for comparison, sometimes with interesting results. For example, the mythic time of Atlantis from Plato's Republic roughly lines up with the last millennium of Azlant, further supporting the already obvious comparison. Earthfall, then, is the collapse of Atlantis before the dawn of historical civilizations.

Over the next thousand years of darkness orcs and dwarves appear on the surface. Elves are predominantly non-existent, gnomes don't exist yet. Varisia is home to the ruins of Thassilon and the impossibly ancient ruins of Ghol-Gan in Garund are probably the only direct evidence that civilization was even a thing in the Inner Sea, aside from anything the few remaining elves aren't protecting.

I don't know what you're going for but the Age of Darkness may simulate the feel of a Bronze Age collapse, but in the history of the world it's more like a Stone Age period after an apocalyptic event removed civilization from the surface, period.

By contrast, what I think of as the Bronze Age of Golarion begins with the Jistka Imperium. Of course, from automatons we know that technically by the end of Jistka 1500 years later, they were working with a lot more than just bronze, but I don't think the 'feel' of a bronze age-like setting is necessarily limited to what exact metals it uses.

This in mind, you may consider the region of Jistka following the collapse of the Imperium at the hands of Osirion akin to a local collapse. However, if you are seeking a time period where many civilizations around the shores of the Mediter-Inner Sea suddenly collapse, I don't think that ever happens completely from here on.

The closest is probably... okay little history we have Osirion slip into decline after the Four Pharaohs situation (-1431 AR), Taldor becomes a fledgling union of city-states a couple centuries later on the opposite shore (no Absalom between them yet), and then eventually Osirion drops off a chunk of territory in the form of the collapse of Thuvia to 'barbarism'. In this context I give you Tarrasque rolling down the World's Edge Mountains, fresh off the kill of Ninshabur and still hungry, decimating Taldor (only about 600 years old at this point), wreaks havoc across the Inner Sea up to the point of riding the flying city of Kho into the ground.

It's going to be another 600 years before Aroden drops by and lifts Absalom out of the sea, and while there are still a collection of nations around the Inner Sea (Nex and Geb, for example, are just kind of hanging out to the south), many of the former big players are going to be licking their wounds (Taldor's capital having been destroyed, for example, Osirion unknown but since their next appearance in history is being conquered by Qadira 1000 years later, you can assume that they're not a major power by any means anymore).

For what it's worth, all major ancestries except elves have entered the scene at this point. Actually I don't know the story of the vourinoi elves in the desert, it's possible Osirian has just had elves this whole time. Certain elves from the Mwangi Expanse stayed behind so possibly. Regardless, if the Age of Darkness doesn't give you what you're looking for this may be the next place to look.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
Wonky Chewbacca wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

A game where the magic doesn't exceed modern technology that would allow the powers in the world to have far more powerful technology than a real Bronze Age World.

D&D worlds are places where priests cure diseases with magic, heal instantly, and raise the dead. Magic users can create things out of thing air. Even alchemists can manipulated chemicals to do incredible things beyond modern day tech.

I get you sort of want to use some historical inspiration for culture creation. But you'll always have to acknowledge D&D worlds would make our modern technology seem just ok.

I think the big difference there is ubiquity. Sure, Remove Disease is handier than a regimen of antibiotics, but you're not necessarily goimg to have temples that stock level 5 clerics every dfew blocks, and paying for a spell is way more pricey (probably, tryimg to convert GP to USD is a rabbit hole to fall down). Raising the dead in particular rarely gets a mention, outside of PCs and (rather more infrequently) enemies of PCs. In some settings or eras, magic may be rarely available to the man in the street, with clerics mostly occupied in ritual, temple politics, and waiting on nobles, while arcane casters are either sequestered away with their own otherworldly concerns, or simpy feared and misunderstood.

On the other end of the spectrum is Eberron, which while made of purest awesome is about as far from what I'm aiming for here as one can get without digging my father's Spelljammer books out of the closet.
TL:DR, I think one can absolutely run a game that invokes the Bronze Age or Neolithic, you just need to keep in mind that magic can be on a slider just like technology.
I don't think it would work like that myself. Given how the real world works, some powerful magic user would use magic to advance the world in a fantasy magic world. There would be a huge number of priests given the number of gods allowing the use of magic to improve and care for the world....

Well, three points:

First, the assumption that there are high-level people idly kicking around all over the place is just that, an assumption. It applies to modern Golarion because of all the APs people need to kill their way through, and it *definitely* applies in Forgotten Realms, but Eberron, for instance, calibrates things so that very few people have actual PC levels, and even then someone above level 5 is exceptional. The Bronze Age is a time of mythic heroes, true, but one way you could present that is that, with much of pre-Earthfall history lost, everybody who can so much as forge a good suit of armor or cast a fireball starts attracting rumors about being the child of Nethys or Gorum.
Second, the thing about technology is its reproducibility. A lvl 9 wizard can do things that nobody can with modern technology, but if they're adventuring on the other side of the continent they're not really changing the life of the average Joe (except for preventing them from being eaten by chimeras.) There's probably some guy crafting everburning lanterns to decorate noble's homes, but even that, one of the most basic magical conveniences, represents the entirety of how many week's income for a normal worker? A skilled hireling can, with an 11 on the roll, get 2 sp a day. (Since there's no option in the corebook to hire anybody better, one can assume that people with higher checks are definitely not the norm.) That's over ten weeks pay, right there. Unless those in power are making an effort to spread their largesse and create a wondrous, magical city where everybody benefits, the commoners are never going to see any of that.
Finally, (and this is all archaeological speculation), part of the reason that technology remained relatively stagnant (compared to when it took off in Classical Greece, if we're sticking to the Mediterranean) was mentality. Lots of discoveries were made, but the idea that one should disseminate and share knowledge, instead of hoarding it for your own people's benefit, hadn't really caught on. Seafarers suspected the world was round (even if they weren't crazy enough to try sailing around it in the ships of the time), but that was a trade secret, kept within the brotherhood of navigators. You didn't go telling farmers.
One could assume people would be equally clannish with the supernatural arts. "Sell wands and scrolls? I labored for three years to work out the base principles of Magnificent Mansion, sir. Why would I give Ibrahim over in Nefvarin the chance to reverse engineer it and steal my secrets?! Sure, the coin would be nice, but my home has as many luxuries as I can fill it with, politics bore me, and unless somebody figures out how to build a cinnabar mine I bargain with shaitans to get most of my research materials, and they want more interesting things than silver dinars."


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As a tangential aside, Eberron is an excellent example of how you can fine-tune things beyond 'high magic' and 'low magic'. 'Common but minor magic' gets you something approaching our modern era, whereas 'rare but powerful magic' gets you something more Middle Earth-ish.


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They don't have to be high level to cure disease or poison or heal or create water for endless water.

Given the sheer number of gods, I think there would be tons of priests. I think it would be one of the most common professions in Golarion even more common than it is in the real Ancient world given the magic in Golarion and D&D worlds is real.

I think almost everyone in the world would likely learn some minor cantrips just like most of the modern world has some idea of how to use cell phones and computers. Magic would be like the cell phones and computers of a magic as technology world.

In the current iteration of PF, it would be even more common given the lack of ability minimum requirements to learn. You can have an 8 wisdom and still learn some cantrip.

I think the worlds would develop very differently. Way too many gods providing way too much access to easy magical power as well as ubiquitous users of arcane magic as well as long-lived races and planar interference. It would be a very different strange world that wouldn't mirror our timeline very well.

I think it should be taken into account when designing and thinking about a fantasy type of world.

The Bronze Age just isn't that interesting in a world where gods are providing magic like a pez dispenser, wizards can fabricate things out of thin air, local druids can alter the weather as needed, and you have creatures so powerful and magically inclined they would appear as gods to the locals.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:


---

In more direct response to OP, I've found entertainment trying to map regions of human history to relative dates of Golarion history for comparison, sometimes with interesting results. For example, the mythic time of Atlantis from Plato's Republic roughly lines up with the last...

Yes, I'm really thinking that the Tarrasque showing up is a good starting point. Ninshabur falls at the hands of level-inappropriate encounter, Taldor probably hardly gets off lightly (a couple civilizations did survive the Bronze Age Collapse, at cost), and the fall of the Shory would be a properly epic high point of the game. Ideally, Osirion would be at the height of its power, but historical Egypt had a habit of telling itself that it was still at the height of its empire centuries after the fact, so I can probably make that the perception without even tinkering with the timeline. Maybe throw in a couple more Spawn for the lulz.

Interestingly, if one were going for a time that matched scientifically (which is, obviously, a madman's pursuit), the Age of Darkness does have a certain resemblance. Some historians now think that the Collapse started with a super-volcano eruption that dimmed the sun for a few years and caused massive crop failures all over Europe.
Oh, well, at least it wasn't 1816.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

They don't have to be high level to cure disease or poison or heal or create water for endless water.

Given the sheer number of gods, I think there would be tons of priests. I think it would be one of the most common professions in Golarion even more common than it is in the real Ancient world given the magic in Golarion and D&D worlds is real.

I think almost everyone in the world would likely learn some minor cantrips just like most of the modern world has some idea of how to use cell phones and computers. Magic would be like the cell phones and computers of a magic as technology world.

In the current iteration of PF, it would be even more common given the lack of ability minimum requirements to learn. You can have an 8 wisdom and still learn some cantrip.

I think the worlds would develop very differently. Way too many gods providing way too much access to easy magical power as well as ubiquitous users of arcane magic as well as long-lived races and planar interference. It would be a very different strange world that wouldn't mirror our timeline very well.

I think it should be taken into account when designing and thinking about a fantasy type of world.

The Bronze Age just isn't that interesting in a world where gods are providing magic like a pez dispenser, wizards can fabricate things out of thin air, local druids can alter the weather as needed, and you have creatures so powerful and magically inclined they would appear as gods to the locals.

That sounds like a *very* high-magic setting. I don't think such a world would have developed into anything like modern Golarion. I think we may just have irreconcilable takes on the setting, but one final rundown of your points.

1: The average person is suggested to be level 1, since you can't hire craftsmen with higher than a +4 bonus. Create Water isn't a cantrip anymore, so a basic initiate can provide water for a few people, but it'd really be easier to use a well or irrigation ditch, especially since it all evaporates in a day.
2: That sounds like a fascinating setting, but there's nothing in any of the Lost Omens source material to suggest that the guy sewing up the hole in your pants and the barmaid know cantrips. Also, a quick search indicates that even today only half the world has easy access to computers.
3: Don't you need a 14 to take a multiclass dedication, in addition to being level 2? I think we can assume the guy driving the hay to market didn't start as a wizard. Also, PC construction rules aren't necessarily indicative of NPC capabilities. (An argument that could be used for or against me, I realize, but I don't often see NPC blurbs stating CG Female Human swineherd/enchanter.)
4: The entire premise of the witch suggests that being a cleric isn't 'easy', or people wouldn't be cutting deals with their parakeet to get around it. The presence of a god doesn't automatically suggest the presence of clerics to them. The forgotten gods of Danger Island, Lissala, Hylax, Damoritosh and the old gods of Androffa are all gods that exist, yet none of them have much in the way of clergy on the ground on Golarian at this time. Keep in mind that, from the perspective of the character, being a worker of divine miracles isn't as simple as clicking 'cleric' on the class bar in the hour before they wink into existence, it represents years or decades of dedicated training and above average faith. Ditto for wizards, demonstrably so here, as arcane magic was outright lost until the Old-Mage reinvented it.
5: I think it is wise to consider the role that magic would play when envisioning a world, but the idea that all fantasy worlds derived from the same set of game mechanics must develop in the same way isn't very convincing. We've got multiple continents even in the modern Golarion, all of which developed with their own unique natures, none of which were dictated solely by what the casters were up to at the time.
6: The Bronze Age is absolutely the place for gods developing often fickle blessings to their heroes, and strange beasts being worshipped or propitiated as terrible gods (how many demigods had to rescue sacrifices from god-sent beasts?). As for the other two, fabricating a house from thin air is great, but it's going to vanish tomorrow and I'll still need a house then, and I don't think they've ever portrayed Golarion as so crazy high-level that level 13 druids are all over the place, altering the weather as needed.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

{. . .}

I don't think it would work like that myself. Given how the real world works, some powerful magic user would use magic to advance the world in a fantasy magic world. {. . .}

More likely that they would use it to take joyrides into orbit/the Inner & Outer Planes.

Magic can finesse some very powerful effects at the local level, and occasionally cause regional devastation, but it isn't very good at mass production.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

{. . .}

I don't think it would work like that myself. Given how the real world works, some powerful magic user would use magic to advance the world in a fantasy magic world. {. . .}

More likely that they would use it to take joyrides into orbit/the Inner & Outer Planes.

Magic can finesse some very powerful effects at the local level, and occasionally cause regional devastation, but it isn't very good at mass production.

Speaking of other planes, it seems connecting to the Plane of Earth (or City of Brass for that matter) would guarantee Golarions would learn metallurgy, steel, and so forth, at least as a concept to pursue.

Once somebody can regularly contact civilizations from beyond the planet, it seems technology would come swiftly. Privation might make implementing technology hard, make its appearance sporadic (i.e. Thundarr!), yet I'd imagine magic would be similar since it'd be tied to individuals (if all the institutions have to rebuild that is).


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Castilliano wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

{. . .}

I don't think it would work like that myself. Given how the real world works, some powerful magic user would use magic to advance the world in a fantasy magic world. {. . .}

More likely that they would use it to take joyrides into orbit/the Inner & Outer Planes.

Magic can finesse some very powerful effects at the local level, and occasionally cause regional devastation, but it isn't very good at mass production.

Speaking of other planes, it seems connecting to the Plane of Earth (or City of Brass for that matter) would guarantee Golarions would learn metallurgy, steel, and so forth, at least as a concept to pursue.

Once somebody can regularly contact civilizations from beyond the planet, it seems technology would come swiftly. Privation might make implementing technology hard, make its appearance sporadic (i.e. Thundarr!), yet I'd imagine magic would be similar since it'd be tied to individuals (if all the institutions have to rebuild that is).

I've read that the recent theory is that people knew how to work small quantities of iron well before the Bronze Age ended. They preferred bronze, partly because of how easy it was to decorate with, partly because it didn't rust as badly as early iron, and a few other reasons. It wasn't until near the end, when tin from Middle East was disrupted, and infantry tactics began to overshadow chariots, that iron started to grow more popular. The industrial base had built up a bit, and smaller groups were growing in power; they found iron easier because it didn't need a massive trade network to make possible.

"Sure, mortal, we'll teach you iron in exchange for certain... considerations... The key is the material you use to tile your blast furnace..."
"Our what?"
"Blast furnace. You don't have those? Okay, this'll optimize the temperature you burn your coal at, so listen carefully..."
"Our coal? Our what now?"
"Oh, by Vyr Azul! Okay, listen..."
"Hey, pal, thanks, but it's only 1 point of hardness, right? And bronze only bends on a 1? I think I'm good."


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If you're going for a more Swords & Sorcery feel, I'd recommend checking out the Xoth campaign setting by Morten Braten. Very strongly inspired by pulp and Conan. Even if you end up sticking to Golarion canon, some of it may serve as useful inspiration. The setting and rules for both PF1e and 5e are available for free at xoth.net.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
This idea that elves are just lazy because they're long lived is not one I must believe. Elves would be constantly busy improving the world and caring for it to make it better.

Just as an aside, careful with ascribing a Human mindset to an alien species.

Elves are basically 'native outsiders' from the Fey Realm/First World, and a big theme with Fey is that they are forever unchanging.

In other words, once they have things the way they like, they would not feel any need to 'improve' things. After all, by definition you can't improve on perfection.

Now Gnomes on the other hand...


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Lycar wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
This idea that elves are just lazy because they're long lived is not one I must believe. Elves would be constantly busy improving the world and caring for it to make it better.

Just as an aside, careful with ascribing a Human mindset to an alien species.

Elves are basically 'native outsiders' from the Fey Realm/First World, and a big theme with Fey is that they are forever unchanging.

In other words, once they have things the way they like, they would not feel any need to 'improve' things. After all, by definition you can't improve on perfection.

Now Gnomes on the other hand...

I don't think this is quite accurate. I so far know no reference in Lost Omens lore that suggests elves have any inherent connection to the fey or the First a World beyond perhaps sharing forest space. Rather, elves on Golarion are an alien species as you said, but only from the next planet over.

In point of fact, it is the gnomes you mention at the bottom of your post who actually gave the history you ascribe to the elves, coming from the First World during the Age of Anguish, if I recall.


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The assumptions on how magic and tech interact and on how ubiquitous magic itself is are loose and broad enough that you can handle it anyway you want. It doesn't really make any more sense to argue that magic would prevent a Bronze age inspired culture than that it would prevent the kind of late-Middle/Renaissance cultures we see in much of the existing Golarion setting.

It's your setting. Run with it.

I do agree that in general that Earthfall/Age of Darkness would be the obvious parallel, though there are other more regional collapses that could work as well. If you're keeping the campaign focused on one region, it doesn't really matter if somewhere on another continent some civilization is having a golden age.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Lycar wrote:

Elves are basically 'native outsiders' from the Fey Realm/First World, and a big theme with Fey is that they are forever unchanging.

In other words, once they have things the way they like, they would not feel any need to 'improve' things. After all, by definition you can't improve on perfection.

Now Gnomes on the other hand...

I don't think this is quite accurate. I so far know no reference in Lost Omens lore that suggests elves have any inherent connection to the fey or the First a World beyond perhaps sharing forest space. Rather, elves on Golarion are an alien species as you said, but only from the next planet over.

In point of fact, it is the gnomes you mention at the bottom of your post who actually gave the history you ascribe to the elves, coming from the First World during the Age of Anguish, if I recall.

Ooops, my bad. Have that confused with another edition's lore apparently.

Still, once a civilisation achieves 'Utopia', is is unlikely to change, as changing anything at this point would be a tacit admission of not actually having achieved Utopia to begin with. Pride is a thing...

And yeah, you kinda need a sort of explanation for the whole 'medieval stasis' thing.


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Lycar wrote:

{. . .}

Still, once a civilisation achieves 'Utopia', is is unlikely to change, as changing anything at this point would be a tacit admission of not actually having achieved Utopia to begin with. Pride is a thing...

Of course, that depends very much upon who you are talking about that being utopia for . . .

Lycar wrote:
And yeah, you kinda need a sort of explanation for the whole 'medieval stasis' thing.

If magic was enough under the control of those for whom Medieval stasis is most profitable, that would do it.

Also, kind of risky to build large metal structures and machines when Rust Monsters are running around . . . .

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Moved from Pathfinder Second Ed General Discussion to LO General Discussion


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Adding my voice to the folks saying that Earthfall is the obvious choice.

I’d adore a game set during the Age of Darkness.

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