I am trying to find the specific rules that define what base speed is?
A Slyph
Speed: Sylphs have a base speed of 30 feet.
A Monk gains 'Fast Movement' at level 3
The Sylph feat 'Wings of Air'
Your bonus on saves against effects with the air or electricity descriptors and effects that deal electricity damage increases to +4. In addition, you gain a supernatural fly speed equal to your base speed (good maneuverability). You may only fly with this ability when wearing light armor or no armor.
So a Sylph Monks fly speed will always be 30ft correct?
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Fast Movement specifically calls out only benefitting land speed, so yes, the Sylph will only have 30ft fly. Base speed is also determined by your race, so unless Sylph has an alt. race trait that raises or lowers their base speed, then their fly will always be 30ft.
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Base movement is anything that says "base movement." That's not super helpful so let me give some examples:
Normal Speed: Sylphs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Easy enough so far, a normal Sylph has a base speed of 30 feet.
A sylph with this racial trait gains a +5 foot bonus to her base speed. This racial trait replaces energy resistance.
OK, a sylph with this alternate racial trait would have a base speed of 35 feet, so her fly speed would be 35 feet as well.
Benefit: While you are wearing light or no armor, your base speed increases by 5 feet. You lose the benefits of this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. The effects stack.
A sylph with the Like the Wind alternate racial trait who has taken Fleet once will have a base speed of 40'.
Base movement is your unaltered movement without any kind of bonus. Some abilities like the Wind specifically state they are increasing your base movement. Any other bonus including an un-typed bonus to your movement does not increase your base move.
This is no different than your BASE attack bonus. I don’t think there is anything besides gaining levels that actually increases your BAB, but the principal is the same.
Base movement is your unaltered movement without any kind of bonus.
That would be logical, but nope: "Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s base speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. (...) This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the barbarian’s base speed." This clearly says that base speed is with this bonus.
The only thing even remotely resembling a definition is in the movement rules: "" CRB pg. 192
There's more evidence that "base land speed" is with bonuses, e.g. that acrobatics says "Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet." CRB pg. 88 and Haste says "This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed." CRB pg. 294
Meanwhile, the full text of Expeditious Retreat says "This spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet." CRB pg. 279, whereas the short description says "Your base speed increases by 30 ft." CRB pg. 233, showing that "base land speed" and "base speed" are used interchangeably.
Matching this, the official character sheet (CRB pg. 570) has "speed land" divided into "base speed" and "with armor", with a seperate line for fly, swim, climb, and burrow speeds. All the above put together all but states that any bonus is included in your "base speed".
So, weirdly enough, things like Fast Movement affect the fly speed, despite saying it doesn't. That's because "fly speed equal to your base speed" is a stupid wording.
At least, that's the RAW, expect most GMs to rule otherwise.
This is no different than your BASE attack bonus. I don’t think there is anything besides gaining levels that actually increases your BAB, but the principal is the same.
Except all things that say "at your full base attack bonus" (like Cleave) mean BAB with bonuses. Which makes this actually an argument in favor of including bonuses in "base speed".
If you really read my post you would have noticed that abilities that increase movement are not considered base movement unless the ability specifically states that it does. When an ability states it is increasing the base movement that is a case of the specific overriding the general. Any ability lacking that statement does not increase your base movement. All the examples you gave specifically call out increasing the base movement.
Of course you roll the attack with any bonuses but that does not increase your BAB. If that was the case things that are tied to your BAB like power attack and deadly aim would also benefit from the bonus. You would also get more attacks per round from the bonus. When you get multiple attacks from BAB the latter attacks are actually at a low BAB. The reason power attacks is not based on the BAB of the latter attack is that it specifically states that you get the bonus on all attacks. The reason the abilities that give you extra attacks call out the full make clear you that those attacks are not rolled using the lower BAB after you made your full attack.
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Base movement is your unaltered movement without any kind of bonus.That would be logical, but nope: "Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s base speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. (...) This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the barbarian’s base speed." This clearly says that base speed is with this bonus.
It says that the barbarian base speed is a modified value, not that all base speeds are modified by different bonuses.
The Tavel Domain too gives an increase to base speed:
Granted Powers: You are an explorer and find enlightenment in the simple joy of travel, be it by foot or conveyance or magic. Increase your base speed by 10 feet.
Note the different wording "Increase your base speed by 10 feet.", "A barbarian’s base speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet", "Exèpeditous retreat: ... This spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet. This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus." against "At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed,", "All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed."
Stuff that increases the base speed says so. Stuff that doesn't say that it increases the base speed doesn't touch the base speed.
Except all things that say "at your full base attack bonus" (like Cleave) mean BAB with bonuses. Which makes this actually an argument in favor of including bonuses in "base speed".
I disagree with your interpretation. Cleave says that you use your full attack bonus, i.e. your BAB isn't modified by iterative attacks or other effects that touch your BAB. Then you add whatever modifier you add to your attack, as appropriate.
There is nothing in the wording of Cleave that makes your interpretation the only one possible, so presenting it as an irrefutable fact is simply a rhetoric trick.
If you really read my post you would have noticed that abilities that increase movement are not considered base movement unless the ability specifically states that it does.
This is an attempt at moving the goalposts. You did not say "unless the ability specifically states that it does", you said "Base movement is your unaltered movement without any kind of bonus." This is an absolute statement with no restriction, and I have proven this statement to be objectively wrong.
When an ability states it is increasing the base movement that is a case of the specific overriding the general.
Prove it. I have quoted rules, you haven't. Unless you can support this with actual rules, it's an unfounded statement unworthy of regard.
The reason the abilities that give you extra attacks call out the full make clear you that those attacks are not rolled using the lower BAB after you made your full attack.
I know why they do so. Doesn't change the indisputable fact that the term "base attack bonus" does not always excludes bonuses and penalties. Which in term means you cannot use it as evidence that "base speed" also must exclude bonuses. You did actually prove that I can't use the term as evidence that bonuses must be included in "base speed", either, but I didn't do that anyway.
It says that the barbarian base speed is a modified value, not that all base speeds are modified by different bonuses.
Which is why I said "with this bonus".
Stuff that increases the base speed says so. Stuff that doesn't say that it increases the base speed doesn't touch the base speed.
Then how does Haste increase jump checks, which gain abonus based on "base land speed" (which I've shown to be synonymous with "base speed")? Do you claim a difference between "base speed" and "base land speed" despite the two Epeditious Retreat descriptions?
Stuff that increases the base speed says so. Stuff that doesn't say that it increases the base speed doesn't touch the base speed.
Because I'm uncertain I understand you: You are saying that Barbarian's Fast Movement, Travel domain's passive effect, and Expeditious Retreat all increase base speed and thus the fly speed from Wings of Air?
There is nothing in the wording of Cleave that makes your interpretation the only one possible, so presenting it as an irrefutable fact is simply a rhetoric trick.
Unless you want to claim that Cleave makes an attack roll without any bonuses beyond BAB, it proves that usage of the term "base attack bonus" does not always refer to the unmodified base value. Which is all I've been saying.
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It says that the barbarian base speed is a modified value, not that all base speeds are modified by different bonuses.Which is why I said "with this bonus".
Stuff that increases the base speed says so. Stuff that doesn't say that it increases the base speed doesn't touch the base speed.Then how does Haste increase jump checks, which gain a bonus based on "base land speed" (which I've shown to be synonymous with "base speed")?
1) "Specific rules trump generic rules". Haste increases the jump check because it says it does.
2) You are considering only part of the rule:
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial penalty on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.
I have bolded that racial bonus. You are arguing that an effect unrelated to your race can give a racial bonus?
Abilities that specifically say that they change the base speed override that limit because of 1), but a general increase in speed wouldn't.Stuff that increases the base speed says so. Stuff that doesn't say that it increases the base speed doesn't touch the base speed.Because I'm uncertain I understand you: You are saying that Barbarian's Fast Movement, Travel domain's passive effect, and Expeditious Retreat all increase base speed and thus the fly speed from Wings of Air?
RAW? Yes.
As you said, the wording of the feat is not well thought. It is the Advanced RAce Guise, so I am not surprised.Unless you want to claim that Cleave makes an attack roll without any bonuses beyond BAB, it proves that usage of the term "base attack bonus" does not always refer to the unmodified base value. Which is all I've been saying.
There is nothing in the wording of Cleave that makes your interpretation the only one possible, so presenting it as an irrefutable fact is simply a rhetoric trick.
I am claiming that you are confusing 2 different things:
- the feat says that you use your full BAB. All it says is that the feat doesn't modify your BAB;- you are making an attack, you apply all the bonuses and penalties that you normally apply to an attack.
You are conflating the two things to support your position, but they aren't the same thing. You are making a simplification that will generate problems when reading the rules.
1) "Specific rules trump generic rules". Haste increases the jump check because it says it does.
But it doesn't say it as a rule, it says it as reminder text. "it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed". The text literally tells you that this behaviour is normal, and thus per definition not a specific that differs from the general.
You are arguing that an effect unrelated to your race can give a racial bonus?
Yes. Lots of things do, for example Spider Climb: "The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet and a +8 racial bonus on Climb skill checks".
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Lots of things like 14 spells in all (according to AoN)? All specifically granting the racial bonus.
Your argument is that you can get it incidentally as a byproduct of some other effect that doesn't touch the racial aspect?
Or it is that you get it when the spell or effect says you get it?
Just to be clear, my argument is that you get a racial bonus only if the effect/spell says you get a racial bonus, not as an incidental by-product of something different.
Some spell/effect (like expeditious retreat) can give it because of its specific text bypassing that limitation, but unless the text is very specific, it doesn't.
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To the 14 spells cited above, we should add the Polymorph spells that change your speed to those of the new form. Your type doesn't change, but your movement change completely, so it seems appropriate.
Sadly, the whole Polymorph section of the rules would need an extended rewriting to be coherent. Using strictly RAW, if you turn into an elemental and aren't burrowing (for an earth elemental) or submerged in water (for a water elemental) you lose your ability to breathe as you lose your lungs. Same thing for skeletal undead and plants.
Ok how about this? A human has a base land speed of 30 feet. No racial bonus to jump checks. He casts Expeditious Retreat, increasing his base land speed by 30 feet. The rule under Acrobatics says he gains a +4 Racial bonus on jump checks for every 10 feet their base speed exceeds 30 feet.
So what are we saying, that we ignore the rule presented in Acrobatics because you don't get the increased speed from your race? I'd need to see some citation on that.
I know this is the rules arena, and all, but what, exactly, are we discussing here?
In the original post, by RAW, a Sylph Monk's fly speed would, technically, be unaffected by Fast Movement [or, at least, the Monk's version thereof].
Now, as to WHY anyone would argue that an enhancement bonus to one's "land speed" does NOT increase a Sylph's fly speed is beyond me. Why would anyone, ever, argue that there is a distinct difference between base speed and land speed? What does it change? What breaks? What is actually worth arguing about? Nothing. Nothing, that I can determine, at least.
Who cares if the Monk's fly speed increases? I would, personally, allow Fast Movement to increase a Strix's 60' fly speed at the same rate as its 30' land speed... I wouldn't even pause the fly speed increase until the land speed caught up... full send. Who cares? It changes nothing about the available space they can actually use in any given presented environment. Let them burrow or climb further, too, if such movement speeds are available.
What sick satisfaction does one get from being "right" in further limiting a freaking fantasy game? The rules can be sliced and twisted to support either side, because they were written assuming people wanted to actually have fun... leave them open enough so that it is not completely stiffling to any and all attempts at creative or imaginative expression. Holy good god(s)... let's argue about the imaginary difference between base speed and land speed.
The matter gets further complicated when you consider that only playable races seem to have a “base speed”. Monster stat blocks list only “speed” when referring to land speed to my knowledge. Then consider that A dolphin has no land speed just a swim speed. An aether wysp has only a fly speed. If base speed is determined by your land speed then neither of these creatures has a base speed.
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder have an inherently flawed design because a significant majority of the rules are created for 2D movement on land, but much of the game is played with 3D movement, especially levels 5+. At level 5+, every individual PC with proper WBL has access to flight from items, and many classes get flight from class abilities at levels 5-10, and some even have flight starting at level 1 from racial features. The lack of rules for 3D movement are something I've complained about for a while. And this is without considering underwater campaigns. That being said...
Whenever Pathfinder rules reference "Base Speed", they're considering Land Speed, because almost all of the rules are meant for 2D movement. If something increases swim, climb, fly, burrow speed, then it will specifically say so in the ability/spell. Like Haste and Monkey Fish.
Haste
School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, bard 3, bloodrager 3, magus 3, medium 2, occultist 3, psychic 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, spiritualist 3, summoner 2, unchained summoner 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a shaving of licorice root)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
MythicAffected creatures gain an additional move action each round. The movement speed increase changes to 50 feet, to a maximum of three times the creature’s normal speed for that movement type.
Augmented (3rd): If you expend two uses of mythic power, the movement speed increase changes to 70 feet, with no limit based on the creature’s normal speed. If an affected creature moves at least 30 feet on its turn, it can travel across liquid as if the liquid were solid. If the liquid deals damage on contact, the creature takes only half damage from moving across it.
Monkey Fish
School transmutation; Level alchemist 1, druid 1, magus 1, psychic 1, shaman 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)DESCRIPTION
Your hands and feet alter to make you better at climbing and swimming. You gain a 10 foot climb speed and swim speed. This spell has no effect if you are wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load.
Now, as to WHY anyone would argue that an enhancement bonus to one's "land speed" does NOT increase a Sylph's fly speed is beyond me. Why would anyone, ever, argue that there is a distinct difference between base speed and land speed? What does it change? What breaks? What is actually worth arguing about? Nothing. Nothing, that I can determine, at least.
Wait, so something specifically only changes a land speed is something you would apply to a flight, i.e. not land, speed?
If “base speed” and “land speed” are the same thing then all creatures not listed as having a land speed must therefore have a base speed of N/A. It can’t be a base speed of 0 ft because then effects like haste would be able to increase it effectively granting a creature a movement mode it doesn’t possess. Also I know of at least 2 examples of creatures with a listed speed of 0 ft. Both the vampire squid and the tullimonstrum are aquatic creatures with a listed speed of 0 ft. So if no listed land speed means no base speed then any such creature cannot benefit from any effect that increases base speed. I think that’s a problem. Especially if you are allowing the monsters as PCs rules.
If “base speed” and “land speed” are the same thing then all creatures not listed as having a land speed must therefore have a base speed of N/A. It can’t be a base speed of 0 ft because then effects like haste would be able to increase it effectively granting a creature a movement mode it doesn’t possess. Also I know of at least 2 examples of creatures with a listed speed of 0 ft. Both the vampire squid and the tullimonstrum are aquatic creatures with a listed speed of 0 ft. So if no listed land speed means no base speed then any such creature cannot benefit from any effect that increases base speed. I think that’s a problem. Especially if you are allowing the monsters as PCs rules.
Actually, haste caps at each of your movement speeds value (if not bigger than 30ft), so a creature with 0 base speed doesn't benefit from any movement speed increase at least on land.
Good catch but they still can’t benefit from effects without such a cap or from effects based on your base speed.
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Good catch but they still can’t benefit from effects without such a cap or from effects based on your base speed.
I don't think so. It will follow the same logic Stephen Radney-MacFarland used when replying to the "Tail Terror feat gives you the ability to attack with a tail even if your race hasn't one" argument:
If you don't have a tail, you can't make tail attacks even if you get the tail terror feat.If you don't have a land speed, you can't increase it. Adding something to a non-existent value still results in a non-existent value.
If a feat or ability gives you a land speed, then you can add to it, but as long as you don't have one, you can't add to it.
Good catch but they still can’t benefit from effects without such a cap or from effects based on your base speed.
Yes. And?
The rules were written for humanoid PCs. Just because a rule option doesn't work for some weird creature never intended to be a PC, doesn't mean we understand the rule wrong.
I honestly fail to see a problem.
If “base speed” and “land speed” are the same thing
Technically, "land speed" is the base speed (= base land speed) after encumberance. Doesn't really change your argument, though.
Good catch but they still can’t benefit from effects without such a cap or from effects based on your base speed.I don't think so. (...) If you don't have a land speed, you can't increase it.
Er, you're actually agreeing, not disagreeing, with his sentence that you quoted.
Dreklord you seem to misunderstand me. I have not proposed an argument I have merely pointed out a problem with the rules that are quite obviously humanoid PC biased. I posted my comments to open a dialogue about how to potentially deal with this issue amongst ourselves as the player community. As Paizo has abandoned PF1 we can’t count on them to issue any clarification on this issue.
Dreklord you seem to misunderstand me.
Apparently I did. Mainly because I don't understand what you're trying to do. Yes, if you polymorph into something without a land speed, Longstrider, Fast Movement, and the Wings of Air feat no longer function. But where is the part that needs clarification? Where is the "issue" that needs to be dealt with? It's no difference from polymorphing (possibly) shutting down your armor, ability to speak, and ability to finely manipulate objects!
I'm looking at Barbarian's Fast Movement (Ex) right now and it says "A barbarian's land speed...", not "...base speed...". I don't think the phrase "base speed" appears anywhere in the Barbarian's abilities?
It used to say that, but it was changed in the 5th printing of the CRB. As the change wasn't included in the errata notes, AoN and d20pfsrd.com missed it.
Could "base speed" be any mode of movement speed that the creature has intrinsically or is that too vague? I.e. some creatures have more than one "base speed" like birds, snakes and monkeys?
No; as I've detailed in this thread (see my first post), base speed is the land speed before encumberance.
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This question was also occurs in my group.
Firstly, Base speed is the speed after you do all the adds, before mutiply (heavy armor or load). Haste, Longstrider spell, Fast movement of Barbarian or Bloodrager could increase your base speed. CRB 170 shows the base speed from 5ft to 120ft and their reduced speed (by heavy armor or load). Obivious Base Speed is not the original race speed.
Sceondly, Base speed always indicates the land speed. I searching the whole CRB and see no exception.
And I met a issue about it. For some flying creature,such as Cassisian (Familiar), She has no land speed, only fly speed. What's her Base speed.
The Cassisian Familiar retrain her feat to Flickering Step, which granting her to teleport no more than twice of her Base Speed.. Finally, I viewed her fly speed as Base Speed this time.
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This question was also occurs in my group.
Firstly, Base speed is the speed after you do all the adds, before mutiply (heavy armor or load). Haste, Longstrider spell, Fast movement of Barbarian or Bloodrager could increase your base speed. CRB 170 shows the base speed from 5ft to 120ft and their reduced speed (by heavy armor or load). Obivious Base Speed is not the original race speed.
Sceondly, Base speed always indicates the land speed. I searching the whole CRB and see no exception.And I met an issue about it as well. For some flying creature,such as Cassisian (Familiar), She has no land speed, only fly speed. What's her Base speed.
The Cassisian Familiar retrain her feat to Flickering Step, which granting her to teleport no more than twice of her Base Speed.. Finally, I viewed her fly speed as Base Speed this time.
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This question was also occurs in my group.
Firstly, Base speed is the speed after you do all the adds, before mutiply (heavy armor or load). Haste, Longstrider spell, Fast movement of Barbarian or Bloodrager could increase your base speed. CRB 170 shows the base speed from 5ft to 120ft and their reduced speed (by heavy armor or load). Obivious Base Speed is not the original race speed.
Sceondly, Base speed always indicates the land speed. I searching the whole CRB and see no exception.
And I met an issue about it as well. For some flying creature,such as Cassisian (Familiar), She has no land speed, only fly speed. What's her Base speed.
The Cassisian Familiar retrain her feat to Flickering Step, which granting her to teleport no more than twice of her Base Speed.. Finally, I viewed her fly speed as Base Speed this time.
This question was also occurs in my group.
Firstly, Base speed is the speed after you do all the adds, before mutiply (heavy armor or load). Haste, Longstrider spell, Fast movement of Barbarian or Bloodrager could increase your base speed. CRB 170 shows the base speed from 5ft to 120ft and their reduced speed (by heavy armor or load). Obivious Base Speed is not the original race speed.
Sceondly, Base speed always indicates the land speed. I searching the whole CRB and see no exception.And I met an issue about it as well. For some flying creature,such as Cassisian (Familiar), She has no land speed, only fly speed. What's her Base speed.
The Cassisian Familiar retrain her feat to Flickering Step, which granting her to teleport no more than twice of her Base Speed.. Finally, I viewed her fly speed as Base Speed this time.
Yea, I didn't mean that all intrinsic speeds are base speeds as a rule in the book, but as a work around for these sorts of issues.