Bloodrager as a Class Archetype for Barbarian


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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This was brought up on the inquisitor thread, and it was suggested that it should be its own thread. I agree, so I'm making it.

I'm thinking... eats the instinct, gains Wave Caster (Arcane) 4 slots, two cantrips, grabs spell strike from the magus, and has access to magus class feats that require it, but doesn't have any of the focus spells that the magus uses to recharge the thing. The rage is a bit anemic, but the damage boost applies to spell damage as well as melee damage. Spellstrike works just fine in rage (and only in rage - for you it has the rage trait), but may or may not have issues with casting other spells. Trim as necessary (if necessary) to achieve proper balance, and spice to taste with appropriate class feats (they have their own instinct, so they'd at least get an instinct's-worth).

So you get a standard barbarian who's a bit weaker than their buddy barbarians, but occasionally they swing that axe and it explodes.

For those of you out there who really want a bloodrager, would that give you want you want, or am I missing something?


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I'd be bummed to lose the Bloodline flavor. Was always sad that the more out-there Sorcerer ones (looking squarely at Nanite here) from 1e didn't make the jump over.

Having Bloodlines also does help to distinguish them more from a Magus.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The Bloodlines are a core component of the class to me. If they aren't there( and there connection to traditions) then it might as well not be the bloodrager class. I am all for reimaigining the class from 1e or 2e but I think that's a core component to the concept. I would rather make concessions in some other manner.


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Bloodragers only cast to 4th level, so IMO don't deserve Wavecasting. I wouldn't look to a Magus for ideas (though maybe the Magus could gain a Raging Hybrid Study? (If that doesn't step on Inexorable Iron's toes too much.)

I'd do it something like this (w/ tweaking for any math needed):
Instinct Ability:
-MCD for Sorcerer
-Spells gained from this Dedication qualify as Rage abilities so can be cast while raging.
(Yes, they'd have to take the other Dedication feats too, and not get 1st level spells until 4th...exactly like in PF1.)

Anathema:
TBD
Maybe like Dragon Instinct, but tied to source of Bloodline; Barbarian chooses whether to honor or to fight specific creature types (w/ wiggle room if attacked because more enemies qualify?)

Specialization Ability:
Damage bonus when under effects of a spell? Or w/ Strike after casting?
Or maybe if they burn slots? Or maybe they can activate scrolls & staves while Raging? (And if not here, these abilities could become feats.)

Raging Resistance:
Like PF1 Blood Sanctuary?: Resistance vs. spells cast by self or allies

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Trouble might be that each Bloodline had specific martial abilities it gained to replace what a Sorcerer would usually get. Meaning to match that there'd need to be lots of sub-types of this one Instinct and I don't think that's page-worthy or necessary.

Also might want them to gain access to advanced Sorcerer Focus Spells at regular level (or level +2) rather than at 2x level. And then have a feat to recharge 2 Focus Points (though maybe not one for 3).

The trick would be balancing the Instinct for those not wanting to take the whole MCD chain (because that's a hefty investment and other Instincts have mostly optional feats), those who do want the chain, and those focused on Focus Spells instead of slots.


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Honestly, they don't even need to take away any features. Just have it as a spellcasting archetype integrated into the class. It shouldn't really need much more than the Sorcerer archetype stuff. Really, the only thing it outright *needs* is to give its spells the Rage trait.

It's significantly simpler than giving it wave casting and allows players to control just how much buy-in they want.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would be content with a class archetype but I honestly think their is enough in the bloodrager for it to be its own class.

I don't think anthemas would make sense for a bloodrager, this is more about something innate inside you then it is, some training or connection to an instinct. You aren't a drag conic bloodrager because you reverse or fight them you are because you were blessed or inherited powers in someway.

I also think that due to the nature of how casting has changed, wave casting would work fine for a bloodrager even if it previously went up to only 4th level spells. But it doesn't have to be its only option.

As a class archetype I would say maybe reduce the hit points to a d10, give them sorcerer dedication and their spells the rage trait. That will maybe do enough. Or maybe give them wave casting of some kind and let them as an option pick up focus spells matching their bloodline. Idk.

If it was a class
I would say
D10 hit die
Roughly the same skills but some are chosen by their bloodline.
They get a rage like ability but perhaps it's weaker but in exchange they get wavecasting(or some other kind of magic) tied to their tradition. And they get a special mechanic at level 1( or maybe a higher level) that is representative of their bloodline. Perhaps these can take the form of unique strikes connected to their bloodline. Like maybe a fey bloodrager can strike and Teleport somewhere, or become invisible for 1 round.

Getting an ability to eventually cast a spell that targets you when you rage is also really important. Maybe even if it's just a once per day thing.

Liberty's Edge

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pixierose wrote:
The Bloodlines are a core component of the class to me. If they aren't there( and there connection to traditions) then it might as well not be the bloodrager class. I am all for reimaigining the class from 1e or 2e but I think that's a core component to the concept. I would rather make concessions in some other manner.

Agreed.

Bloodrager as a class archetype for Sorcerer then. Seems like it would be simpler this way.


If there is any class that deserve wave casting is the 4th level casters (Yes, this includes Paladin and by extension Champion). So idk, people already know my feeling on that.

The key components of bloodrager however are clear:

* Bloodline
* Rage
* Being able to cast while raging without worrying about action economy
* Being metal af (I always imagine Bloodragers as being the ones pictured in metal covers while in mid rage)
* etc.

Most importantly, if a bloodrager cannot use the claws bloodline abilities it fails as bloodrager.

Sovereign Court

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I dunno if sorcerer dedication is really the way to go, 1e bloodrager was a so-so spellcaster too. But what it was really good at was action economy and synergies; most of your stuff just switched on as a side effect of going into rage, with a few spells that basically ran off of your melee attack like Blade Lash.

So I think what we really need is a lot more instinct-specific feats that trigger off going into rage (giant already has a few, more like that please). And 1-action focus spells with the rage trait, but preferring stuff that lets you do a special move Strike rather than using spell attacks.

A focus spell to elongate your limbs by 20ft for a single Strike for example for a (yet to be made) aberration instinct.


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If we want to keep Bloodrager similar to PF1's, then we'd need martial feats/abilities for each Bloodline represented. Those IMO were the main draw of Bloodragers, not the paltry spells.

If we want a gish with Wavecasting, we're talking a total reconstruction as that uses a major portion of a class's power budget.

I don't feel Bloodrager's worth the page count for either of those things so would be content w/ adding the Rage trait to a Sorcerer Dedication's spells. It could be an Instinct, or an advanced version of Moment of Clarity (though it'd have to add a cool bonus so it's not a simple thus boring upgrade or gatekeeping feat that'd also end up delaying access).

I could also see an Instinct which allows one to choose from any spontaneous casting MCD. That'd broaden the Instinct's application to PF1's Skald & Rage Prophet too. Then add in some feats/Instinct abilities to recover Focus Points, burn slots for damage, perhaps cease Rage for spell damage (Heightening? duration?), add the Rage trait to item usage, etc. I already think Mighty Rage would be cool for them since you could cast/Rage simultaneously to begin combat.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:

This was brought up on the inquisitor thread, and it was suggested that it should be its own thread. I agree, so I'm making it.

I'm thinking... eats the instinct, gains Wave Caster (Arcane) 4 slots, two cantrips, grabs spell strike from the magus, and has access to magus class feats that require it, but doesn't have any of the focus spells that the magus uses to recharge the thing. The rage is a bit anemic, but the damage boost applies to spell damage as well as melee damage. Spellstrike works just fine in rage (and only in rage - for you it has the rage trait), but may or may not have issues with casting other spells. Trim as necessary (if necessary) to achieve proper balance, and spice to taste with appropriate class feats (they have their own instinct, so they'd at least get an instinct's-worth).

So you get a standard barbarian who's a bit weaker than their buddy barbarians, but occasionally they swing that axe and it explodes.

For those of you out there who really want a bloodrager, would that give you want you want, or am I missing something?

I would probably make Bloodrager its own Instinct on top of it being a Class Archetype choice, applying the Rage trait to all spells you cast. In addition, most Class Archetypes lose their 2nd level class feat on top of it, which I would suggest would probably give you the benefits of the Sorcerer dedication, and as Specialization abilities, you gain Basic, Expert, and Master spellcasting for free.

I definitely agree that the Damage Bonus for Raging should be able to apply to both Strikes and Spells, and have the damage bonus be the same type as that dealt by either Strike or Spell, with the option of having the Strike do the same damage type as a Spell cast within the same round. But I would not go so far as to permit Spellstrike to work with the class, because that otherwise poaches the Magus' schtick, and plus requires the whole "recharge" thing.

I would like to see some unique strike feats where they utilize things like 10-foot bursts, or 15-foot cones, and having the option to change that damage to one of the four common elements, or another type depending on which spells they may have used prior. This would synchronize quite well with the Conductive weapons, for example.


The bloodrager really sounds to me like it would be much better as a barbarian archetype. With feats giving abilities like the bloodrager spells. I'm just not seeing that people would want to play the class if the martial abilities had to be toned down from a barbarian in order to fit in flexible spells.


I prefer bloodraging being an adendum to the barbarian's instinct rather than replacing it as well. The instinct/bloodline/whatever it would be called for a bloodrager is a big part of the appeal for me.

Honestly most most of the bloodrager bits I care about are there already, the instincts and instinct-specific feats, so all I'd need would be some way for barbs to be able to cast spells while in a rage and I'd be set.

Scarab Sages

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Something with the bloodline, add the rage trait to your focus spells, maybe some focus/rage stances, I think we could do something interesting. Focus seems the way to do their magic while still being a solid martial.


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I think having it be a class archetype/instinct hybrid like the Spellshot would be the best approach, give it a non-anathema like Fury or something minor involving magic usage, and then from there give it:

    Sorcerer MCD,
  • The ability to cast spells (only?) while raging,
  • One or two Bloodrager specific focus spells.
  • Maybe a mid-level feat to get a slot/focus point back on a crit once a day.
  • Probably some self-explosion 18th level feat that also hurts you slightly?
I honestly like the design space for Bloodrager, but it was an absolute spaghetti bowl of features in 1E and needs some serious parsing and cleaning should it get ported over.


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Or, and just hear me out...

Make it it's own class that way you can make feats specifically for the bloodrager without it messing with barbarian or sorcerer progression. With it being a class you can give them their own progression for bloodline abilities, feats that enhance blood rage specifically, etc.

As for feats that it might share with barbarian and sorcerer. Well there are multiple classes that share feats already, so why would this class not be able to share feats?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote:

Or, and just hear me out...

Make it it's own class that way you can make feats specifically for the bloodrager without it messing with barbarian or sorcerer progression. With it being a class you can give them their own progression for bloodline abilities, feats that enhance blood rage specifically, etc.

As for feats that it might share with barbarian and sorcerer. Well there are multiple classes that share feats already, so why would this class not be able to share feats?

I am in agreement here


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Same. I think it *couid* be done as a class archetype, but that might not be the best route.

Liberty's Edge

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The problem I see with a new class is that each time you want to create a new bloodline for Sorcerer, you have to create one for Bloodrager and vice versa.

Just realized that a Bloodrager that could use Oracle's Mysteries instead of Sorcerer's Bloodlines would be awesome.


The Raven Black wrote:

The problem I see with a new class is that each time you want to create a new bloodline for Sorcerer, you have to create one for Bloodrager and vice versa.

Just realized that a Bloodrager that could use Oracle's Mysteries instead of Sorcerer's Bloodlines would be awesome.

I don't see why? I mean, there's nothing inherently forcing you to have them match one-for-one. You could easily enough have some that match and some that do not. It's not like we're short on "plausible Sorceror bloodlines that haven't yet been statted up". No reason why we couldn't have the "has been statted up" lists be different for the two classes. Indeed, there might well be bloodlines that are relatively common for one side and pretty rare or nonexistent on the other, for any number of reasons.

Liberty's Edge

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

The problem I see with a new class is that each time you want to create a new bloodline for Sorcerer, you have to create one for Bloodrager and vice versa.

Just realized that a Bloodrager that could use Oracle's Mysteries instead of Sorcerer's Bloodlines would be awesome.

I don't see why? I mean, there's nothing inherently forcing you to have them match one-for-one. You could easily enough have some that match and some that do not. It's not like we're short on "plausible Sorceror bloodlines that haven't yet been statted up". No reason why we couldn't have the "has been statted up" lists be different for the two classes. Indeed, there might well be bloodlines that are relatively common for one side and pretty rare or nonexistent on the other, for any number of reasons.

Because fans of the class that didn't get it will clamor ceaselessly for getting theirs.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

The problem I see with a new class is that each time you want to create a new bloodline for Sorcerer, you have to create one for Bloodrager and vice versa.

Just realized that a Bloodrager that could use Oracle's Mysteries instead of Sorcerer's Bloodlines would be awesome.

I don't see why? I mean, there's nothing inherently forcing you to have them match one-for-one. You could easily enough have some that match and some that do not. It's not like we're short on "plausible Sorceror bloodlines that haven't yet been statted up". No reason why we couldn't have the "has been statted up" lists be different for the two classes. Indeed, there might well be bloodlines that are relatively common for one side and pretty rare or nonexistent on the other, for any number of reasons.
Because fans of the class that didn't get it will clamor ceaselessly for getting theirs.

First, you can reduce that by having a disconnect on both sides from the beginning, to break the idea that they're fundamentally intertwined, and counter any cries of "unfairness". Second, I'm not seeing anything I'd describe as "ceaseless clamoring" even for the existence of Bloodrager at all. Sure, people will want it, but people always want more of their stuff. Having there be broken parallels isn't going to drive things to a fever pitch or anything.

I guess that mostly just boils down to "I believe you are incorrect in this thing." but it is what it is.


Honestly the only thing that reallt matters as far as bloodline is concerned for Bloodrager is the bloodline power.

Sorcerer get their bloodline powers by spending feats. I see no reason why a bloodrager would have 1-3 feats to get 1-3 bloodline powers. Paizo already changes the level at which some classes get the same feat, so you can literally just use the Sorcerer feats.

What having a class enables is all the other feats that might revolve around mixing rage with casting. Also naturally this would make a great entry into a number of archetypes. Ex: Dragon Disciple and Rage Prophet.

Liberty's Edge

TBH I wonder if the Dragon Disciple might be used as the basis for a more generic Bloodrager.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Soo the biggest issue about needing to maintain the same list for sorcerer and bloodrager is that imo the powers should be manifesting differently for the two, not only for thematic reasons but mechanical ones as well. Idk if create ward would be as effective as it is for both a nymph sorcerer and a nymph bloodrager. At a certain point to assure that both feel right as classes enough changes might as well happen that they should use different lists. Maybe simillar lists but not exact 1 for 1, simply as a byproduct of trying to make the most cohesive version of the bloodrager.

Liberty's Edge

The Raven Black wrote:

The problem I see with a new class is that each time you want to create a new bloodline for Sorcerer, you have to create one for Bloodrager and vice versa.

Just realized that a Bloodrager that could use Oracle's Mysteries instead of Sorcerer's Bloodlines would be awesome.

My bad. I meant using Mysteries in addition to Bloodlines.


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The Raven Black wrote:
TBH I wonder if the Dragon Disciple might be used as the basis for a more generic Bloodrager.

So... The Dragon Disciple is close. You'd need a few more feats to mesh the spellcasting in with the rage properly, but there's certainly enough meat there to work with. There's a few issues there, though. The first is that there's just too much beef. You start with the full barbarian chassis and then you have the dragon disciple and then you probably want to take a sorceror archetype as well, just to have some more spells to throw around (on top of the two or three feats necessary to get the spellcasting+rage thing working right). That would indeed wind up with a solid rendition of the bloodrager... one that was just barely possible if you went free archetype and basically unworkable otherwise. The basic issue with making it an archetype is that archetypes are inherently things that get paid for out of the "class feats" part of the budget, and given some of the stuff that people want, that's just not enough... especially if you want to have any flexibility left over once you're done.

Beyond that... there's a number of specific feats in that thing. Some of them you could make semi-generic (like the "add bloodline spells to your spellbook) but some not so much. You can't just make it a generic and be done. It would take at least a bit of work per bloodline, to fill in the non-generic feats.


The Raven Black wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

The problem I see with a new class is that each time you want to create a new bloodline for Sorcerer, you have to create one for Bloodrager and vice versa.

Just realized that a Bloodrager that could use Oracle's Mysteries instead of Sorcerer's Bloodlines would be awesome.

I don't see why? I mean, there's nothing inherently forcing you to have them match one-for-one. You could easily enough have some that match and some that do not. It's not like we're short on "plausible Sorceror bloodlines that haven't yet been statted up". No reason why we couldn't have the "has been statted up" lists be different for the two classes. Indeed, there might well be bloodlines that are relatively common for one side and pretty rare or nonexistent on the other, for any number of reasons.
Because fans of the class that didn't get it will clamor ceaselessly for getting theirs.

Clamor clamor clamor, why didn't 1E bloodragers get nanyte bloodline as an option, clamor clamor clamor, it would have made so much sense, clamor clamor clamor.

Liberty's Edge

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Nanite + Bloodrager gets 40 hits when using the Search function on the Pathfinder boards ;-)


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The Raven Black wrote:
Nanite + Bloodrager gets 40 hits when using the Search function on the Pathfinder boards ;-)

[insert Starship Troopers “I’m doing my part!” clip]


Bloodrager as a class archetype for barbarian would be better than a bloodrager class; however, I think we can fit bloodrager abilities into barbarian class using a new instinct rather than a full archetype. We just have to squeeze several archetype abilities into the instinct. I spent a few days designing the Bloodline Instinct.

Bloodline Instinct
Your rages draw upon a buried supernatural bloodline rather than a true instinct. Your sorcerous heritage from an ancestory did not manifest simply as spellcasting; instead, it shaped your barbaric rage. People call you "bloodrager."

You gain the Sorcerer Dedication feat, and select your bloodline and other details. You do not become trained in the bloodline's two skills. You gain access to the Cast a Spell activity only while Ragecasting or if you gain access from another source. Instead Sorcerer Dedication giving you two common cantrips of your choice from your tradition, it gives you one. You add the granted spells from your bloodline to your spell repertoire. You gain the Blood Magic from your bloodline.

At 4th level you gain access to Cast a Spell outside of Ragecasting.

Anathema
Letting an insult against your ancestors slide is anathema to your instinct. If an ancestor engaged in immoral or criminal activity, you may acknowledge that they made a mistake, but you will brook no dishonor beyond that.

Ragecasting (Instinct Ability)
You gain one 1st-level spell slot for the spells of your bloodline's tradition. You learn Ragecast.
Ragecast [Two-actions] or [Three-actions]
You Rage and Cast a Spell. That spell must have a casting time of 1, 2 or 3 actions and be in your sorcerous spell repertoire (including cantrips) or a bloodline focus spell. If the spell takes 3 actions to cast, then Ragecast takes 3 actions; otherwise, it takes 2 actions. The spell and sustaining the spell lose the concentration trait.

Weapon Specialization 7th
You are an expert in spell attack rolls and DCs of the magical tradition of your bloodline. You deal an additional 2 damage with damaging spells in which you have expert proficiency. If the spell damages several creatures or objects, distribute the additional damage evenly, rounding up. This damage increases to 4 if you’re a master.

Raging Resistance 9th
The resistance from your raging resistance class feature applies against all damage you take from spells of your bloodline's magical tradition, regardless of the type of damage dealt by the spell.

And I invented three feats for the bloodline instinct. One was based on Darksol the Painbringer's idea, so I named it after him.

Sorcerous Painbringer Feat 1
Barbarian
Prerequisite bloodline instinct
You deal 2 additional damage with your spells that deal damage if they are cast while you rage. If the spell damages several creatures or objects, distribute the additional damage evenly, rounding up. Whenever the 2 additional damage with melee Strikes from rage increases, this additional damage increases by the same amount.
Special This feat counts as a sorcerer multiclass archetype feat.

Nonchalant Spellcasting Feat 4
Barbarian, Metamagic
Prerequisite bloodline instinct
You cast instinctively rather than by deep thought. While you rage, Cast a Spell and Sustain a Spell lose the concentration trait.
Special This feat counts as a sorcerer multiclass archetype feat.

Advanced Bloodline Spell Feat 8
Barbarian
Prerequisite bloodline instinct, basic bloodline spell
You dig deeper into your instinctive magic. You gain the advanced bloodline spell associated with your bloodline. Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1.
Special This feat counts as a sorcerer multiclass archetype feat.


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I need to test the Bloodline Instinct by building a character. I had played a bloodrager/gunslinger NPC Val Baine in my Iron Gods campaign, but adding gunslinger to the test character would complicate matters. Instead let's make her cousin.

When a sinkhole in Crowhollow opened a passage to a buried technological trove in northeaster Numeria, Technic League wizard Alling Tresorant investigated and used the technology to experiment on the nearby Mountain Crow barbarian tribe (Numeria: Land of Fallen Stars, pages 38-39). Eventually he wiped out the tribe, but a few members survived by luck. Armstrong Ghost Wolf's mother of the Mountain Crow tribe married into the Ghost Wolf tribe before the Mountain Crow tribe vanished. Armstrong was born with an elemental mutation from Alling Tresorant's early covert experiments with mutagens to the Mountain Crow water supply.

The Ghost Wolves are the most determined anti-technology tribe in Numeria,

Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars, page 31 wrote:

The Ghost Wolves do not fear technology so much as hate it; they seek to prove their supremacy over it through

destruction of technological artifacts, the murder of Technic League agents, and the defeat of robots. ... The Ghost Wolves travel swiftly across the land and strike at the Technic League, their minions, and their machines before vanishing back into the wilds. ... For a Numerian tribe, they have an unusually large number of spellcasters. They have learned through hard experience that magical acumen is far less dangerous than unleashed technology. The Ghost Wolves frequently utilize invisibility to gain a battlefield advantage, as few robots can detect invisible foes and their laser weaponry proves useless against such threats.

Armstrong Ghost Wolf

Barbarian 4
CN, Medium, Human, Humanoid
Perception(expert) +8
Languages Common, Hallit, Orcish
Skills Athletics +10, Diplomacy +9, Guild Lore +6, Intimidation(expert) +11, Nature +6, Society +6
Str +4, Dex +1, Con +1, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +3
Items breastplate, +1 striking guisarme, sling (10 bullets), Healer's Tools, rations, 2 lesser smokestick, 2 Invisibility Potion,
AC 19; Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +8
HP 60
---
Speed 25 feet
Melee +1 striking guisarme +11 (Reach, Trip) Damage 2d10+4 slashing
Ranged sling +7 (Propulsive, 50 ft.) 1d6+2 bludgeoning
---
Sorcerer Spontaneous Spells DC 19, attack +9; both Ragecast and ordinary Cast a Spell
1st (2/day) Acidic Hands*, Shockwave
Cantrips (2nd) Produce Acid*, [/url="https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=245"]Ray of Frost[/url]
* Produce Flame and Burning Hands altered to acid damage in granted spells from bloodline
---
Rage, Sorcerous Painbringer, Furious Finish
Deny Advantage
Intimidation: Group Coersion, Glaring Intimidation, Raging Intimidation
Nature: Ride, Natural Medicine
Society: Multilingual

Build Choices
Ancestry Human, Skilled Heritage (Society)
Background Anti-Tech Activist (Intimidation, Guild Lore, Group Coercison feat)
Class Barbarian, Bloodline Instinct (Elemental Earth)
Ancestry feat 1: Natural Ambition (Sorcerous Painbringer)
Background feat: Group Coercison
Class feat 1: Raging Intimidation (includes Intimidating Glare)
Class feat 2: Furious Finish
Class feat 4: Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting
Skill feat 2: Multilingual (Hallit, Orcish)
Skill feat 4: Natural Medicine
General feat 3: Ride

Tactics
I imagine Armstrong Ghost Wolf patroling on his horse with two 2nd-level Ghost Wolf rogues as their patrol leader, healer, and protector. He would flank or trip or cast Shockwave to make opponents flat-footed to them. If he is not setting up the rogues, he instead uses his Ragecasting to toss a damaging spell such as Produce Acid before wading into melee. Armstrong can also Demoralize or Coerce opponents with his high Charisma and expert Intimidation.

Test Results
Armstrong Ghost Wolf shows that Bloodline Instinct is workable. The anathema can give him problems, especially if someone suggests that the Mountain Crow tribe vanished because they were incompetnent. Most enemies, however, don't know about his Mountain Crow ancestors and will instead insult the Ghost Wolves.

However, basing Bloodline Instinct on the Sorcerer Multiclass Archetype creates a vicious competition for class feats. The bloodrager has to give up barbarian feats for sorcerer spells, or sorcerer spells for bloodline instinct feats, or bloodline instinct feats for barbarian feats. I would have loved to give Armstrong the elemental toss focus spell, but the Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting nudged it out. At 6th level, the barbarian Attack of Opportunity would win over the sorcerer multiclass feats, because Attack of Opportunity works well with reach weapons. A class archetype for bloodrager would have the same problem, but worse since it would spend a class feat to take the archetype dedication, too.

I based ragecasting on the 11th-level Greater Bloodrage ability to cast a spell on himself when entering a Bloodrage. Ragecasting-only would be a fun restriction on low-level spellcasting. It would stop a 3rd-level Bloodline Instinct barbarian from sniping with cantrips like a wizard. However, serious spells take two or more actions to cast, so for game balance Ragecasting has to take at least two actions. Due to that casting time, ragecasting does not combine well with the common barbarian tactic of rage and charge.

In my first draft, the sorcerous bloodline was flavorless. The Sorcerer Dedication does not give the thematic granted spells nor the blood magic. If the barbarian does not spend a feat to gain the first focus spell, then the only flavor from the bloodline is the magical tradition. I worked the granted spells and the blood magic into the Bloodline Instinct.

Making bloodrager a sub-class of barbarian that changes more than the instinct would cork out better, but it would not feel as much like a barbarian-sorcerer hybrid.


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@mathmuse...

This gives you an untyped damage bonus to spells. Period. Nobody gets that. It doesn't even require you to rage. Then you have a feat that gives you another +2. That's... a significant boost to damage, that stacks with everything. Of course, there's a kind of fairness to it... because part of it is coming from a low-level feat... so every spellcaster ever can poach it for two low-level class feats and some awkward stat assignments. There's a lot of casters out there who aren't all that impressed by their low-level class feats.

Sovereign Court

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I'm really not a fan of bloodrager implementations that get in the way of picking an instinct. PF1 bloodragers had pretty distinct bloodlines that were cool in different ways, and I think that's something PF2 should try to capture too.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:

@mathmuse...

This gives you an untyped damage bonus to spells. Period. Nobody gets that. It doesn't even require you to rage. Then you have a feat that gives you another +2. That's... a significant boost to damage, that stacks with everything. Of course, there's a kind of fairness to it... because part of it is coming from a low-level feat... so every spellcaster ever can poach it for two low-level class feats and some awkward stat assignments. There's a lot of casters out there who aren't all that impressed by their low-level class feats.

The 2 additional damage is supposed to have the same type as the other damage from the spell. I copied the phrasing from Rage, "You deal 2 additional damage with melee Strikes." On the other hand, spells are more compicated than weapons, so perhaps the ability would need more clarity than relying on defaults.

Does PF2 have untyped damage? I thought all damage had a type.

The extra damage from the Sorcerous Painbringer Feat does require raging. I forgot to write the rage requirement for the Specialization Ability, but it was supposed to be there. I am not attached to the bloodline instinct's Specialization Ability. Some other instincts had a theme: the specialization from animal instinct requires the animal-based unarmed attack, the specialization from giant instinct requires the larger weapon, and the specialization from superstition instinct requires a spellcaster target. Spell damage seems the closest theme for bloodline instinct, but I would prefer something more traditional to a barbarian.

A character of a spellcaster class could poach Sorcerous Painbringer, but could not poach the bloodline instict's specialization ability because the Barbarian Multicalss Archetype does not provide the specialization ability to multiclassers. To gain Sorcerous Painbringer, they would need Barbarian Dedication selecting Bloodline Instinct, Basic Fury to gain Sorcerous Painbringer, and either Instinct Ability to gain Ragecasting or Advanced Fury to gain Moment of Clarity in order to be able to cast spells while raging or find a damaging spell that does not require concentration.


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The Raven Black wrote:
pixierose wrote:
The Bloodlines are a core component of the class to me. If they aren't there( and there connection to traditions) then it might as well not be the bloodrager class. I am all for reimaigining the class from 1e or 2e but I think that's a core component to the concept. I would rather make concessions in some other manner.

Agreed.

Bloodrager as a class archetype for Sorcerer then. Seems like it would be simpler this way.

That would be worse, as PF2 strongly differentiates caster classes from martial class, and bloodrager is clearly on the martial side.


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Most 4-level spellcasters map to focus spell casters, so that is probably what a bloodrager should map to. Each bloodline does in fact come with a set of focus spells.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
David knott 242 wrote:


Most 4-level spellcasters map to focus spell casters, so that is probably what a bloodrager should map to. Each bloodline does in fact come with a set of focus spells.

But not all of them fit the theme of "bloodrager"

Which I why I think an original class that plays to its strengths would work best if we did have something bloodrager like in 2e.


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Bloodrager was one of the 4-level caster that made the most use of their spells. Specially with the way Blood rage and associated feats/archetypes worked.

Trying to make one of the other classes fit just won't work when they are so complicated.


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And here I thought the bloodrager class was just an excuse to take primalist and be a better barbarian than barbarians.

All kidding aside, my approach would be a class archetype that ignores spell casting and replaces the instinct abilities with specialized bloodline abilities that uses focus spells for combat length buffs/effects added on to rage benefits.


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Now I'm wondering if we will end up seeing something like an Eldritch Scion class( not with that name) and bloodraging is just one way to interact with a class that is basically martial equivalent of sorcerer. It could take inspiration from Bloodrager, the Eldritch Scion archetype for magus from 1e, and maybe become it's own thing i.e the thaumaturge is related to the occultist in theme but goes in a different direction.

While I think Bloodragers can stand on there own perhaps the desire to see them be minimized or adjusted into class archetypes suggest that people don't think the concept on its own holds enough water for a class. But trying to apply it to existing classes also seems to not quite hit the mark for some.

I'm not saying I want to that route but rather just spit balling ideas.


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pixierose wrote:

Now I'm wondering if we will end up seeing something like an Eldritch Scion class( not with that name) and bloodraging is just one way to interact with a class that is basically martial equivalent of sorcerer. It could take inspiration from Bloodrager, the Eldritch Scion archetype for magus from 1e, and maybe become it's own thing i.e the thaumaturge is related to the occultist in theme but goes in a different direction.

While I think Bloodragers can stand on there own perhaps the desire to see them be minimized or adjusted into class archetypes suggest that people don't think the concept on its own holds enough water for a class. But trying to apply it to existing classes also seems to not quite hit the mark for some.

I'm not saying I want to that route but rather just spit balling ideas.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that remark. I did have one at one of my 1e tables, and while it was interesting and had it's own identity in that system, I can't see it pulling the same weight in the 2e system. The way 2e handles things doesn't seem to support bloodrager enough to make a wholecloth class imo. I was fearful Magus might not even make it with the way Fighter with Wizard MCD fit the bill enough that it might have been a straight archetype to give Spellstrike a la Eldritch Knight of 1e. I can't really see any hybrid class (aside from Investigator and Swashbuckler, which were miraculous in their own right) really being their own full class in 2e. If it finds a way, I'll be impressed, but I think it has potential (and might do very well) as a class archetype, which fuses the two parent classes the 1e version had.


Much as I'd like it to be a full class, I can't see it being anything other than a Barbarian class archetype. Though if it were a separate class you'd probably need to pass an arcana check to rage or some other nonsense.

It can easily be an archetype that forces you into moment of clarity at 1 modified to be a free action for spells and then having you select a caster archetype at 2 and ignoring stat prerequisites.


nick1wasd wrote:
pixierose wrote:
While I think Bloodragers can stand on there own perhaps the desire to see them be minimized or adjusted into class archetypes suggest that people don't think the concept on its own holds enough water for a class. But trying to apply it to existing classes also seems to not quite hit the mark for some.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that remark. I did have one at one of my 1e tables, and while it was interesting and had it's own identity in that system, I can't see it pulling the same weight in the 2e system. The way 2e handles things doesn't seem to support bloodrager enough to make a wholecloth class imo. I was fearful Magus might not even make it with the way Fighter with Wizard MCD fit the bill enough that it might have been a straight archetype to give Spellstrike a la Eldritch Knight of 1e. I can't really see any hybrid class (aside from Investigator and Swashbuckler, which were miraculous in their own right) really being their own full class in 2e. If it finds a way, I'll be impressed, but I think it has potential (and might do very well) as a class archetype, which fuses the two parent classes the 1e version had.

What are the concept and potential of the bloodrager?

I myself thought of the PF1 hybrid classes as playful mashups of familiar classes, inspired by the magus from Ultimate Magic, which was inspired by the D&D fighter/wizards of the githyanki species. We had arcanist (sorcerer+wizard), bloodrager (barbarian+sorcerer), brawler (fighter+monk), hunter (druid+ranger), investigator (alchemist+rogue), shaman (oracle+witch), skald (barbarian+bard), slayer (ranger+rogue), swashbuckler (fighter+gunslinger), and warpriest (cleric+fighter).

My own experience with a bloodrager was a GMPC created during an odd situation in my Iron Gods among Scientists campaign. The campaign had started with only three players, playing a magus, skald, and Experimental Gunsmith gunslinger. During their first battle in the caves beneath Torch, we realized that they needed a dedicated martial character in the party. I was willing to let them recruit a 1st-level NPC into the party, such as a town guard. They chose an NPC that they had already met, an unstatted teenage human girl named Val Baine. The module made her 13 years old, but fitting the gunslinger's backstory into wizard Khonnir Baine's backstory required that Khonnir and his daughter Val had been living in Torch longer than the module said, so Val aged to 17 years old. The players said that Val deserved a chance to search for her missing father along with the party.

My players suggested that Val could be a barbarian with the Savage Technologist archetype. However, Val had displayed that she could already cast a few cantrips--appropriate for the daughter of a wizard--so I needed a class that could cast cantrips. Since PF1 offered no barbarian + wizard hybrid, I started with the bloodrager and added a custum archetype that gave her cantrips. Through that archetype, I made her a mixture of the three PCs but more martial.

Thus, I see flavorful versatility as the potential of bloodrager class. It provided a framework through which I could play a balanced combination of barbarian, sorcerer, gunslinger, and technologist. Balance is vital in a GMPC, more important than in a PC. Val Baine, as a setting element rather than as an independent character, served to represent the mixed nature of Numeria, a land both barbaric and technological.

My attempt in this thread to create a Bloodline Instinct starved for feats too much for high versatility and washed out most of the flavor of both the instinct and bloodline. And Sanityfaerie thought it terribly unbalanced.


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Mathmuse wrote:
Does PF2 have untyped damage? I thought all damage had a type.

Not untyped damage. Untyped bonus. It's not a circumstance bonus. It's not a status bonus. It stacks with everything. You're not allowed to get "stacks with everything" damage bonuses from your feats like that. Admittedly, forcing it to tie into your rage helps here. There's still some notable potential balance issues, though.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Does PF2 have untyped damage? I thought all damage had a type.
Not untyped damage. Untyped bonus. It's not a circumstance bonus. It's not a status bonus. It stacks with everything. You're not allowed to get "stacks with everything" damage bonuses from your feats like that. Admittedly, forcing it to tie into your rage helps here. There's still some notable potential balance issues, though.

I don't remember putting a +2 bonus anywhere in my Bloodline Instinct nor its related secondary features and feats. I searched my text for "+2" and "bonus" and did not find anything. There are no untyped bonuses in the writeup.

The additional 2 damage is not a bonus. And yes, it does accumulate with other damage. Damage accumulates. It also inherits the type from the damage that it is added to, just like the 2 additional damage from rage does.

The Bloodline Instinct deserves some criticism. It does not fulfill the goals I wanted. It is too flavorless. But criticism from misreading it indicate only where I could have clearer phrasing.

My current thoughts are that I could have more flavor and more balance by inventing a separate instinct for each of the 10 sorcerer bloodlines in the Core Rulebook and maybe a few bloodlines from other books. I would follow David knott 242's suggestion of giving the bloodrager only focus spells. And maybe a beginning-of-rage magical effect to replace Ragecasting.

David knott 242 wrote:
Most 4-level spellcasters map to focus spell casters, so that is probably what a bloodrager should map to. Each bloodline does in fact come with a set of focus spells.

If a player wants a bloodrager with sorcerer spell slots, then that bloodrager can take a Sorcerer Dedication. Maybe the 7th level Specialization Ability could give the bloodrager the Sorcerer Dedication, or a sorcerer multiclass feat if the bloodrager already has the Sorcerer Dedication. And the sorcerer spells would count as bloodrager spells for mixing with rage if the sorcerer bloodline matches the bloodrager bloodline. I would avoid that annoying additional damage that way.

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