An inquiry into the viability of a new flavor: Pathfinder Dark


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That isn’t really the case here, as the criticism you just presented was that they should have conceived of the 2e setting differently at its inception as a solution to better handling the issue today.

“You’d have handled it better by making it irrelevant three years ago” isn’t the most valid of criticisms


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Temperans wrote:
Why should this setting now stop, and catter to those who are triggered by it and not those who find it therapeutic? Why is someone getting triggered heard more than someone who getting help? It's certainly is not fair to remove the content that helps people no?

There's a difference between "do no harm" and "has therapeutic effect".

Paizo staff are being harmed. They don't want to write this stuff.

Paizo staff are not trained clinicians. They cannot even begin to attempt to write stuff that is therapeutic.

It's easy to stop writing harmful stuff that you don't want to write any more.

The Golarion setting was never meant to be a therapeutic tool. The fact that some people are able to use it that way is great, but it's a happy accident, not a design goal.

"Not writing more material the people don't want to write" is easy to accomplish. "Writing material that is therapeutic for some people AND also doesn't harm anyone else" not so much.


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Also, this aside about therapy didn't actually start with "But I find killing slavers in a game therapeutic", but with a claim that cancel culture is causing not enough to be done about mental illness.


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Oh god, there's another thread about this??? How many do we need? Give the mods the holiday break off, people.


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dirtypool wrote:

That isn’t really the case here, as the criticism you just presented was that they should have conceived of the 2e setting differently at its inception as a solution to better handling the issue today.

“You’d have handled it better by making it irrelevant three years ago” isn’t the most valid of criticisms

It's meant as a matter of hindsight that making a clear delineation between editions would had save Paizo a lot of trouble now.


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Dancing Wind wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Why should this setting now stop, and catter to those who are triggered by it and not those who find it therapeutic? Why is someone getting triggered heard more than someone who getting help? It's certainly is not fair to remove the content that helps people no?

There's a difference between "do no harm" and "has therapeutic effect".

Paizo staff are being harmed. They don't want to write this stuff.

Paizo staff are not trained clinicians. They cannot even begin to attempt to write stuff that is therapeutic.

It's easy to stop writing harmful stuff that you don't want to write any more.

The Golarion setting was never meant to be a therapeutic tool. The fact that some people are able to use it that way is great, but it's a happy accident, not a design goal.

"Not writing more material the people don't want to write" is easy to accomplish. "Writing material that is therapeutic for some people AND also doesn't harm anyone else" not so much.

Imagine reading a question over who should Paizo listen to more. Then responding about something completely different.

Way to move the goal post.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Because it's easier to remove things that are hurting people. It's as simple as that. It's easier to tell GMs that they can add something in, than to present it as a key aspect of an adventure. Like has been said, PFS doesn't have the luxury of session 0s and getting good feedback on what is acceptable to your players.


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Temperans wrote:
Why should this setting now stop, and catter to those who are triggered by it and not those who find it therapeutic? Why is someone getting triggered heard more than someone who getting help? It's certainly is not fair to remove the content that helps people no
Temperans wrote:

Imagine reading a question over who should Paizo listen to more. Then responding about something completely different.

Way to move the goal post.

Ok, let's answer your specific questions

"Why should this setting now stop, and catter to those who are triggered by it"
Because the people being triggered are the people writing the stories. If you stop publishing those stories, the people who work for Paizo won't be harmed any more.

"and not those who find it therapeutic? "
Because writing therapeutic material is not something Paizo writers are trained to do.

"Why is someone getting triggered heard more than someone who getting help? "
See answers to previous versions of this question. Essentially, because the people being triggered work for Paizo. They have more power and influence than individual customers do.

"It's certainly is not fair to remove the content that helps people no? "
Paizo is not removing any content. All the content that has been therapeutic for you is still there. They just won't be creating any new "therapeutic" content


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Cori Marie wrote:
Because it's easier to remove things that are hurting people. It's as simple as that. It's easier to tell GMs that they can add something in, than to present it as a key aspect of an adventure. Like has been said, PFS doesn't have the luxury of session 0s and getting good feedback on what is acceptable to your players.

Thank you for actually responding in good faith.

And I will agree with PFS having a harder time with things.


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Temperans wrote:
dirtypool wrote:

That isn’t really the case here, as the criticism you just presented was that they should have conceived of the 2e setting differently at its inception as a solution to better handling the issue today.

“You’d have handled it better by making it irrelevant three years ago” isn’t the most valid of criticisms

It's meant as a matter of hindsight that making a clear delineation between editions would had save Paizo a lot of trouble now.

A very small crowd - who I should note, I never seem to see in the setting discussion sub-forums - throwing a fit is not the same as Paizo having “a lot of trouble now.”

Plenty of fans are happy about this. Plenty more are happy to let the writers create what they actually want to. Plenty more don’t care.

By all means, go run your awesome, therapeutic, slaver-bashing campaigns you hold so precious, and then come tell us all about it. Until then? This whole backlash has just felt like culture war for the sake of culture war.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Oh god, there's another thread about this??? How many do we need? Give the mods the holiday break off, people.

I'd hoped to avoid it by phrasing myself as diplomatically as I could, and keeping an agreeable tone to my responses, but it does seem to have reverted to ground state, yes. I got some decent feedback before it fell apart, but I apologize, nevertheless.

I will note that while Pathfinder is, ultimately, a game with the underlying intent of entertainment, its therapeutic value is quite real. What is therapy but mental healing, and what is fun but healing from the stresses and damages that living inflicts? Gaming has been critical in helping me explore the nuances of my gender, besides helping me defeat (by proxy) things I lack the power to throw fireballs at in real life.
Still, don't heal at the cost of others. If writing the old stories is causing the writers harm, the early parts of this thread provide many useful suggestions for alternatives we can seek. I for one had missed Luis Loza's original post, and was unsure what level of the company the decision had come from, or I would probably have started this on reddit or some such.


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keftiu wrote:
This whole backlash has just felt like culture war for the sake of culture war.

You could pin this to the messageboards homepage.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
keftiu wrote:
This whole backlash has just felt like culture war for the sake of culture war.
You could pin this to the messageboards homepage.

Seriously.

I really want to grab these folks and tell them “My entire last campaign was about killing both slavers and actively-genocidal fascists. That content is allowed and even welcome in tabletop - it just doesn’t have to come from Paizo if they don’t want to make it, and demanding they do so anyways is absurd.”


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Some of the people I've talked to genuinely seem to be itching for a Very Specific Idea Of What Queer/Left-Leaning People Are Like. They want the "SJW I can own with my clever talking points", and so many of their takes just feel like they're arguing with phantoms.

It's where the "Twitter warriors" came from. It's where the "torches and pitchforks" came from. They can't find any of us being "triggered" the way they want us to be, so they just sort of make people up to be mad about.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

Some of the people I've talked to genuinely seem to be itching for a Very Specific Idea Of What Queer/Left-Leaning People Are Like. They want the "SJW I can own with my clever talking points", and so many of their takes just feel like they're arguing with phantoms.

It's where the "Twitter warriors" came from. It's where the "torches and pitchforks" came from. They can't find any of us being "triggered" the way they want us to be, so they just sort of make people up to be mad about.

If you like you can start talking to me about shalms, if it helps.


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If a shepherd cleric of Obad-Hai was into breeding Pokemon with normal animals and spinning comfortable loose-fitting garments with the wool, she'd be a Mareep-sheep-shawl Shalm-shaman


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
If a shepherd cleric of Obad-Hai was into breeding Pokemon with normal animals and spinning comfortable loose-fitting garments with the wool, she'd be a Mareep-sheep-shawl Shalm-shaman

That's the spirit.

By the way, I appreciate the herculean efforts you've made these past months to act as a voice of reason and civility on these boards. If you don't mind me asking, why the name change?


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If you aren't explicitly a girl in your avatar and username, people assume you're not a girl. Changing the username isn't even always enough, as it's turned out.

Also, I like catgirls. Who doesn't?


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

If you aren't explicitly a girl in your avatar and username, people assume you're not a girl. Changing the username isn't even always enough, as it's turned out.

Also, I like catgirls. Who doesn't?

Makes sense. I need a better avatar, people still don't get that I'm half-Wookiee on my mother's side. As for catgirls, some of the more hipster foxpeople I know seem to have some obscure aggro, the peasants.

EDIT: Not seeking to denigrate you or the legendary carpet of chest-hair Lictor Sabinus hides under that hellknight plate. I've never tried to derail a thread (much less my own) before, and am unsure as to the reccomended level of irreverent whimsy to use.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote:
It's meant as a matter of hindsight that making a clear delineation between editions would had save Paizo a lot of trouble now.

Yeah, I wasn’t confused by it. I was pointing out that it wasn’t some nuanced criticism that was causing you to be ignored merely because you were being critical.


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Im sorry but I don't really like Pathfinder Dark. Im more of a Pathfinder Cookies and Cream sort of person. If Im feeling a bit more ambitious Pathfinder with Nuts is always a good option.

Edit:
Wait I found it.
Pathfinder Dark........ Roasted Coffee


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I'm not a liberal, either, but trolls aren't really good at nuance. The script doesn't say what to do if we don't fit the narrow mold all "SJWs" fit into.


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Every time I read these threads, I keep thinking about the Community gif where the guy is all happy, bringing back pizza’s to the apartment (Paizo mods) and stands there in shock as everything is on fire, a person is hurt, and someone is trying to douse the fire with a cup of water (the threads). KC and others, I’m glad you’re the people trying to douse the fire with cups of water :) I can’t imagine how difficult that is.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

They are such small cups, I wish I had a larger cup


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Screw the cups, I'm eating the troll


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As a reminder, many people have voiced their dissent without acting like, well, bad faith jerks or bigoted trolls, and they have been engaged with largely respectfully. Differences of opinion are welcomed, as long as they aren't excusing bigotry, and there are plenty of valid reasons to be critical of Paizo's direction. But you know something funny? If you go around making a mess, don't be surprised when people aren't falling over themselves to be patient and helpful and help you clean yourself up.

Liberty's Edge

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Cori Marie wrote:
They are such small cups, I wish I had a larger cup

Larger club maybe ?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Angel Hunter D wrote:
You say "this isn't for me", you don't go demanding other people accomodate you.

There’s many things I find objectionable about that post, but this section is just willfully silly. As a customer, it is perfectly fine for me to demand a company I am going to give money to accommodate me. Or I won’t give them money. If they decide my money is not worth the accommodation, then fine. I’ll not give them money, and I’ll tell them why I am not.

Why waste time or money on entertainment that does not attempt to accommodate me?

And yes, this absolutely applies to you too. If Paizo isn’t providing what you want, spend your money elsewhere.


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Just going to leave this here, because it somehow seems appropriate . . . .


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Ooh, a slippery slope! I'll get my sled.


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Like I said, plenty of people have expressed those sentiments without baiting or taking political potshots, and they've largely been treated with respect. :)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

And haven't had their posts removed either!

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