Fun ruffian rogue build for getting a handle of the system?


Advice


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I played my first pf2e character the other day, a dwarf mountain stance monk, and it was super fun! But I decided that I wanted to play something with a bigger focus on the social and skill part of the game, while still getting to play with the fun athletics tricks I could do as a monk.

Ruffian rogue seems like the best bet, as I I can get a bunch of skills, can still trip people, and have charisma for intimidation!

Other than that, any other tips for a good ruffian rogue build? This character is for pathfinder society one shots, so no uncommon content or much downtime. My goal with this character (other than just having fun playing some one shots) is to get an understanding of the system so I am ready for a longer campaign down the line where I will be playing a toxicologist alchemist, anything I should try out with this rogue to help prep myself for the alchemist? Any other tips?

Scarab Sages

Sentinel Archetype gets you plate armor, so at level 2 you get higher reflex saves and AC while still leaving DEX low.

Boost STR, CON, WIS, and CHA in that order.

Demoralize is good plus Dread Striker. Having the option to raise a shield is nice.

Unarmed attacks and the Medic Dedication are good for this sort if build, but you night have trouble finding the right ancestry or fitting the feat into your build.


Tip 1: Your PC's toughness is only middlin' (low frontline hit points and average AC), so either boost that up (i.e. via Sentinel or Duelist Archetype, or even just a shield or Shield Cantrip) or develop skirmishing skills (i.e. move in w/ Mobility, then back out). In PFS, you might have to switch tactics depending on group composition, i.e. standing firm when supported by a Champion & Cleric while skirmishing when w/ a Barbarian & Archer.
Luckily PFS is on the easier side (compared to APs for example) so you don't have to stress too much about this, but do keep in mind that slapping a 14 Con on an 8 h.p. class is a bare minimum (as in still risky) for frontline defense.

Tip 2: Another thing that can help w/ defense is carrying a longspear, especially since PFS features many humanoid enemies that would have to spend an action closing with you. Unfortunately, this fills your hands and makes tripping difficult! (Releasing is free but regripping costs a precious action.)
I recommend wearing a gauntlet and spiked gauntlet. Later you'll have to choose which direction to go w/ your weapons, but dabble with the various options while everything's nonmagical. And factor in Doubling Rings, which I think are great w/ a magic gauntlet as then you have one hand free to trip and another that can swap to a weapon that suits your enemy to exploit a Weakness or bypass a Resistance. If you find you're not tripping so much (maybe because Intimidate & flanking suffices), enhance the bigger weapon instead.

Tip 3: Tripping is cool and will help set up your Sneak Attack, which will be great when working alongside a Fighter (or other person w/ Opportunity Attack), but otherwise a simple flank + Strike will serve you better than a Trip attempt + Strike w/ MAP.
The Monk is king of Athletics tricks, so hopefully you're thinking about Skill Feats available to all and not Monk feats your Dwarf had!

Tip 4: A Rogue Ruffian differs a lot from a Toxicologist Alchemist! I guess you could dabble w/ a Poisoner Archetype or take Poison Weapon... so that you learn that poison is a horrible main shtick! I say this with sorrow since I've long wanted to make a poison themed PC, yet it's the most common Immunity and Resistance, so it's easy to get shut down. Not that it can't be a good secondary tactic, it's just too unreliable as a primary investment.
Then there's the flaw that Alchemists aren't martial characters, so all your habits from playing a Ruffian Rogue w/ lots of agency will get your Alchemist killed. Sadly, that poison will be more effective on your allies' weapons than your own. You might want to consider taking Alchemist Archetype (or Poisoner) instead on top of a class that has more core strengths. But that's for a future day.

Tip 5: Stats. I'd go w/ Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14 and feel awkward for doing so mainly for that Wisdom*. But if you're in the thick of things you need that Con more and if you want to capitalize on Charisma abilities (and perhaps carry the team socially, a big factor in PFS), that 14 is kind of a minimum. Your PC's breadth of ability has its costs, though with the ridiculous amount of skills & skill feats Rogues get, you need to apply them somewhere!
If you did nix tripping, you could swap the 18 to Dex and go Thief, and also Gnome for an 8/18/14/10/14/14. Or if you nixed social then being a Dwarf could beef you up toward combat 18/12/14/10/14/8 (w/ another +2 available to place). It's all an ebb and flow.

Tip 6: Actions. One can't follow all of this advice. Between tripping, Demoralize, moving to flank, moving out for safety, swapping weapons, and raising a shield, your PC will be stuck for actions (and hands too). And that's okay (at least until you need to choose which weapons to magic up) though you're going to want to make your choices for each upcoming battle before initiative gets rolled.
Check out what you think might make for a good attack routine when facing a crowd of minions, a cluster of thugs, one mean beast, or a boss w/ some support. For example w/ the minions, it wouldn't be worthwhile to Demoralize or Trip unless you could hit several and it'd be hard to skirmish away from all of them. So maybe Raise a Shield, move to flank, and punch them w/ a gauntlet**. While vs. tougher thugs, it'd be more useful for the team as a whole to debuff with a Demoralize, and maybe stay back a bit w/ your longspear (while still flanking).
Tripping's value will vary, with lumbering brutes being excellent targets and party composition mattering more, like if you're stuck guarding others (a poor role for your PC!), the action-stealing of tripping will be more important.

Tip 7: Which Dedication to go with?
Even if you don't want much from a Dedication, that first feat is often superior to any other options you have. With 14 Charisma you could pick up a spellcaster Dedication (MCD) for a pair of cool Cantrips, or even Champion MCD for some heavy armor! (And access to some really good feats, like for Lay on Hands or a Champion's Reaction). And there are strong advocates for Swashbuckler MCDs (the main hurdle being the Charisma you'll already have) to get One for All.

* As well as making for an average Will save (since Rogues get Expert to start), that Wis also hurts Medicine, one of the most useful skills. Getting Assurance (Medicine) would be useful if you do go w/ the lower Wis (assuming you have enough skills to cover your PC's other bases too). You'll still need to boost Wis at 5th+.

** One great thing about gauntlet + Ruffian Rogue is that you get early access to the Critical Specialization which is powerful: Slow 1 (though yes, there's a save, and you did need to crit to begin with which just might finish off weaker opponents anyway or maybe could have if PC had been using a bigger weapon than a gauntlet!)

---
There are less fragile routes to go w/ a charismatic tripper BTW.
I might go w/ a Fighter w/ Rogue Dedication (or some other skill boosting class to avoid need for Dex because of need for Charisma). Then tripping leads to an Opportunity Attack, making the trip pay off a lot more. And one could get a Reach Weapon w/ Trip.
Swashbuckler's another route w/ less fragility (higher hit points + feats with AC bonuses), though it's a bit more complicated in juggling one's actions re: Panache.

Okay, that's perhaps too much! Oops. :-)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Alright interesting, seems like I might want to save a ruffian for another situation, maybe when I have more experiance with pf2e (or I can play an ancestery with an unarmed strike, like maybe a hobgoblin beastkin or something)

The toxicoligist is deffinitly meant to be a support character handing out poison's to that party's two rogues. So this character probably won't be great practice for that other than getting used to the system, good to know!

I like the idea of a fighter, maybe I could try out an alchemist dedication or a spellcaster dedication instead of focusing on skills? As long as I have one good skill it isn't too much worry. Are there any good intimidation and athletics based fighter builds? I kind of like the idea of a meteor hammer, but free hand fighter also sounds fun!


Well now you're going all over the place. Which is fine, but you're going to have to separate your requests for clarity.

A party w/ two Rogues supported by an Alchemist sounds risky, as in the first creature immune to precision damage will likely destroy y'all. Unless you have several other teammates too, like a tank and caster.

Yes, a Fighter makes a good foundation for an Alchemist or caster.

Any PC can have several good skills, no need to settle for one. Since skill feats no longer compete with other feats (as in 3.X/PF1) everyone can learn some cool skill tricks. Also Backgrounds, Ancestry feats, and Multiclass Archetypes can broaden one's skill base quite well.

"Builds" isn't quite the right term in PF2 since unlike 3.X/PF1, you don't have to invest a lot to excel at a task. There aren't many side abilities to hunt down and accumulate.
Does Fighter work well with Intimidate? Yes, with heavy armor they can free up stats to get some Charisma. The cost is to their ranged combat ability, but that beats ditching health (or Will saves, Fighters needing their Wisdom a lot because they have low Will saves).
There's also a Fighter feat that imposes Frightened directly (so no need for Charisma) and another which help you hurt Frightened people more.

Does Fighter work w/ Athletics? Of course. Having a free hand actually works in PF2. The feats that support that are obvious, though note those will dig into any Dedication you're think of getting. It's a more defensive style, yet w/ trip & Opportunity Attack it works well w/ a team. (And having a free hand is great for consumables and interacting w/ one's environment, i.e. climbing or grabbing things, both which in PFS I feel have value.)
If you only want to trip (and IMO that's the only maneuver worth regularly doing) then get a Trip weapon, 18 Str, & Athletics and you're good to go. Meteor Hammer does the trick, and has cool imagery. A Guisarme works too, though I prefer MH's blunt damage.
The benefit of this route is you don't need any feats to excel (though do think about (eventually) getting one Press and one Stance and Combat Reflexes) so you can invest a lot into a Dedication.
A basic stat set could be 18/10/12/10/14/14.
Take Athletics & Intimidate and keep them maxed out w/ magic items as you level and you'll be at or near the top of the curve. And you still have space for Diplomacy (always nice in PFS for somebody to have) and maybe a Wis-based knowledge skill (or Medicine, though your skill feats will likely be tied up on the Athletics & Intimidate too much to make that more than a backup for others).
The 14 Wisdom opens you up to trying out Cleric (w/ the excellent Shield Cantrip) or Druid (though then you'd take a major knock going down to Hide Armor!), and the 14 Charisma opens up tons of caster MCDs.
The thing w/ caster MCDs is you either want to dabble (the Dedication plus maybe pick up a Focus Spell) or go all out w/ all the casting feats (though that won't really pay off until higher levels, so maybe not good for PFS play).

For Alchemist, 18/10/10/14/12/14
This is a horrible array IMO, but that's because it's trying to juggle being an Alchemist and using Intimidate. You'd likely have to narrow it down, for which I'd recommend a Dwarf: 18/10/14/14/14/8.
That's one tough hombre, and while it lacks the utility of the Charisma abilities, it gains the breadth of the Alchemist's tools. It won't do as well on-the-fly as an actual Alchemist, but w/ forewarning you'd be able to prep what's needed, or just go in w/ some default poisons and bombs.
(Funnily enough, w/ a bludgeoning weapon and low Dex, those would work a lot better in the hands of teammates! You could of course make a thrower or archer instead, though IMO those do need some feats.)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:

Well now you're going all over the place. Which is fine, but you're going to have to separate your requests for clarity.

A party w/ two Rogues supported by an Alchemist sounds risky, as in the first creature immune to precision damage will likely destroy y'all. Unless you have several other teammates too, like a tank and caster.

Yes, a Fighter makes a good foundation for an Alchemist or caster.

Any PC can have several good skills, no need to settle for one. Since skill feats no longer compete with other feats (as in 3.X/PF1) everyone can learn some cool skill tricks. Also Backgrounds, Ancestry feats, and Multiclass Archetypes can broaden one's skill base quite well.

"Builds" isn't quite the right term in PF2 since unlike 3.X/PF1, you don't have to invest a lot to excel at a task. There aren't many side abilities to hunt down and accumulate.
Does Fighter work well with Intimidate? Yes, with heavy armor they can free up stats to get some Charisma. The cost is to their ranged combat ability, but that beats ditching health (or Will saves, Fighters needing their Wisdom a lot because they have low Will saves).
There's also a Fighter feat that imposes Frightened directly (so no need for Charisma) and another which help you hurt Frightened people more.

Does Fighter work w/ Athletics? Of course. Having a free hand actually works in PF2. The feats that support that are obvious, though note those will dig into any Dedication you're think of getting. It's a more defensive style, yet w/ trip & Opportunity Attack it works well w/ a team. (And having a free hand is great for consumables and interacting w/ one's environment, i.e. climbing or grabbing things, both which in PFS I feel have value.)
If you only want to trip (and IMO that's the only maneuver worth regularly doing) then get a Trip weapon, 18 Str, & Athletics and you're good to go. Meteor Hammer does the trick, and has cool imagery. A Guisarme works too, though I prefer MH's blunt damage.
The benefit of this route is you don't need any feats to...

Sorry my last post wasn't clear, that alchemist is for a campaign thats starting in like 4-6 months, I don't need to build him yet! (also i am really hoping paizo releases some sort of fleshwarping alchemist specialization before I make him)

It also might be worth making a diffrent post later just listing everything I would want in a character and seeing what fits best instead of leading with the ruffian rogue..

I REALLY do like the sound of what your saying about a meteor hammer fighter though, thats rad! I think I would avoid the alchemist with this character, seems like that might be too many things at once. I do like the idea of the caster even if it isn't the best, since it would let me try out spellcasting. Any recomendation for which of those class dedications work best? Seems like it would be best to avoid druid.


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You'd been clear. That forewarning was free. :-)

The only ways to build a bad character in PF2 are by intent, by spreading one's stats too thin, or by attempting to do too many things outside one's class's given proficiencies (i.e. gishes are hard).
That said, Fighters & Champions (due to full plate's Bulwark ability) and Thief Rogues (due to Dex to damage) have what might be called a spare stat, so a charismatic meteor-hammer-wielding Fighter is quite doable.

Liberty's Edge

Another pitfall to avoid is having your attack stat too low. 16 seems to be the minimum to be viable.

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