Depictions of Slavery in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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welcome to my dark pulped fantasies

So! Today we're juicing blood oranges. For those new to the channel I'll remind everyone that orange juice can be a great source of Vitamin C, and blood oranges are especially


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But seriously, Pathfinder historically being kind of on the edgy pulpy side is sort of the point. Using slavery as a cheap and exploitative signal of "evil" for trashy pulp fiction has been a problem for a long, long time. "Letting white gamers live out their empowerment fantasies" doesn't only apply to those who want to roleplay as slavers--it applies to those who want to roleplay white saviors, too.


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They aren't removing anything. They just aren't publishing new content about it.


keftiu wrote:
I don’t know that I would call anything I’ve seen in 2e “dark pulp fantasy.”

1e was so edgy I didn't like it until they started toning it down and adding realistic stuff I like, like the queer characters in Wrath of the Righteous not suffering discrimination because nobody has the time or energy to care in the middle of the demon apocalypse.

Dark Archive

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Temperans wrote:
As to the sexual assault thing. I believe I have seen some talk about it when it comes to brothels, prostitutes, and any of the mind control abilities available. I have seen some threads getting locked for things getting too heated.

I mean, most offensive thing in AP related to that is from Jade Regent and almost nobody ever mentions it despite it also combining slavery and stockholm syndrome :p

At least I don't remember seeing many other people than me asking about "hold on isn't this extremely screwed up npc?"


CorvusMask wrote:
Temperans wrote:
As to the sexual assault thing. I believe I have seen some talk about it when it comes to brothels, prostitutes, and any of the mind control abilities available. I have seen some threads getting locked for things getting too heated.

I mean, most offensive thing in AP related to that is from Jade Regent and almost nobody ever mentions it despite it also combining slavery and stockholm syndrome :p

At least I don't remember seeing many other people than me asking about "hold on isn't this extremely screwed up npc?"

I actually was kind of disappointed that revealing that

Spoiler:
Anamurmon killed the Regent's mon
didn't cause
Spoiler:
the Regent to lash out in rage against Anamurmon and potentially be left to reevaluate his entire worldview and goals in life after the final battle
. That he isn't the deepest villain otherwise and mostly just seems to be Bad King von Generically Oppressive doesn't hurt my desire to tell a deeper story there either.

Then again I'm that crazy person who got frustrated with D&D's Descent into Avernus less because the first third is disjointed from the rest and kind of bland and more because I felt that the redemption ending was too cheap and should've come with more consequences to the character being redeemed and more soul-searching honesty.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

welcome to my dark pulped fantasies

So! Today we're juicing blood oranges. For those new to the channel I'll remind everyone that orange juice can be a great source of Vitamin C, and blood oranges are especially

We would also like to remind you that this does not apply to Gebbite Blood Oranges which, while a terrible source of Vitamin C, are an excellent source of blood!

Dark Archive

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I would like to note that he didn't say they are going to remove it, they just aren't going to mention it.

Like, Pathfinder setting has horrible real life crimes and discrimination in it, but after early edgy parts they don't really focus anymore on what ogres do in their spare time despite it still being canon. Its pretty much same principle, ogres never got changed in pathfinder, they just stopped being explicit about what they do.


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CorvusMask wrote:

I would like to note that he didn't say they are going to remove it, they just aren't going to mention it.

Like, Pathfinder setting has horrible real life crimes and discrimination in it, but after early edgy parts they don't really focus anymore on what ogres do in their spare time despite it still being canon. Its pretty much same principle, ogres never got changed in pathfinder, they just stopped being explicit about what they do.

Yeah, I keep waiting for an explicit retcon on that, because while I get that they had to make ogres worth hating and killing somehow, it's also super cringe to have an entire species of cartoon hillbillies.

It's the give and take, I guess, that comes when fundamentally as gamers grow they become less OK with killing thinking creatures because "they are from the bad species" and want a REASON to cheerfully commit fictional violence.

(this is why Hell's Rebels works so well, you're mostly fighting Satanic fascists, incarnations of evil, and literal serial killers, so no player will ask "wait, what about the baby orcs from that camp we just slaughtered?)

Contributor

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I'm not gonna quote your message cause you are out here writing mad essays that really just demonstrate that you aren't actually listening to what anyone has to say and you are ignorant to a lot of larger conversations happening.

There have been many, many conversations about problematic content that Paizo has published in the past. They happen all the time. The fact that you are not a part of those conversations does not mean that they aren't happening. What may seem sudden to you has been building up for years. And your demands that everyone rehash all of those conversations for your benefit are unreasonable.

Also yeah, a lot of Black people do think 12 Years A Slave and movies like it are harmful. Again, you are really just putting your own lack of awareness on blast. I highly recommend you take a step back from this conversation and reexamine yourself.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

False equivalents are False. Putting words in other peoples mouths is bad. Creating bad faith arguments to create more dramaz is obvious.

Saying it again for the people in the back. Nothing has been removed from the setting. Poor choices were pointed out. Moving forward Paizo has decided to make fewer poor choices. This should be applauded.

You have all the rules as written to do what you want. There are plenty of villains without slavers. But if you so choose you can even say 'big bad guy is a slaver' during 90% of the future adventure paths and it wont affect the story. Lets be honest, when it was implemented in the past it was done so poorly anyways. Almost as an after thought.

Now, you can make the after thought your own, and now you are at least 10% more creative than you were yesterday.

Contributor

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Yeah. Portraying incredibly graphic racialized violence can cause harm. It can retraumatize people. Portraying 'bad things as bad' doesn't change the fact that they are traumatic to large swathes of the population. It's the reason why content warnings and rating systems exist. It's the reason Paizo doesn't allow sexual assault or harm to children in their published content.

And you're right, the company isn't obligated to do anything. But they chose to do it. Sorry if that sucks for you. I call it a win.

Also you don't know what the word whitewashing means, please stop using it incorrectly.

Scarab Sages

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UllarWarlord wrote:
All of this is to say: you're free to have your power fantasies of owning other intelligent creatures in your home games. I'm not going to stop you. But the freelancers have a definite voice as content creators for these settings, and we will be (and have been) making our voices heard.

That's not why I dislike the change. It's because the fight for abolition was such a compelling storyline in Age of Ashes and Lost Omens: Legends. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think any desire to own people factors in much.

In fact, a hypothetical slavery power-fantasist fan of TTRPGs probably wouldn't have been a fan of Paizo in the first place. That's for any number of reasons, not least because slavery has been depicted as Evil. Wouldn't they have jumped ship during 2E, when slavery became more reviled and less accepted in-setting?


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Michelle A.J. wrote:

Yeah. Portraying incredibly graphic racialized violence can cause harm. It can retraumatize people. Portraying 'bad things as bad' doesn't change the fact that they are traumatic to large swathes of the population. It's the reason why content warnings and rating systems exist. It's the reason Paizo doesn't allow sexual assault or harm to children in their published content.

And you're right, the company isn't obligated to do anything. But they chose to do it. Sorry if that sucks for you. I call it a win.

Also you don't know what the word whitewashing means, please stop using it incorrectly.

While I am fine with the removal of slavery from published content (hard to do right, risk of hurting people or creating “white savior” syndrom) he is correct in the use of the term whitewashing which per formal definition is “ deliberately attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about (someone or something).”.

The fact that there is American slang using it differently for issues around white vs black makes it confusing, but not wrong.


Pathfinder isn't concealing unpleasant or incriminating facts. The mass chattel enslavement of halflings is not and never has been a "fact". This is a fantasy game. It's not whitewashing.

Also, everyone talking about the importance of slavery narratives--go look into some discourse about The Help and slavery narrative Oscar Bait movies. It's kind of useful perspective on the white fetishization of white atrocities.

Oh, oops, Tonya, I'm not sure the thread got locked.


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People did play as slavers. This is not open to debate.

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