|
| 12 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Came across this while theorycrafting for a PFS build. I fear the answer does not fall in my favor, but I thought I would look into it anyway. Never hurts to ask, right?
Cavalier-Order of the star (emphasis mine)
At 2nd level, the cavalier can make a short prayer as a standard action, filling him with confidence in his abilities. At any point in the next minute, he can receive a competence bonus on an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check equal to his Charisma modifier. He must declare that he is using this bonus before the roll is made. He can use this ability up to four times per day, once for each type of check or roll. In addition, the cavalier adds 1/2 his cavalier level to any levels of paladin or cleric he might possess for the purposes of determining the effects of channel energy or lay on hands.
And a life Oracle's Channel energy revelation (Emphasis mine)
Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
So the question is: does the Order of the Star's ability allow them to add 1/2 their cavalier level to their EFFECTIVE cleric level that they get from being a life oracle?
I would think yes
I do not believe the cleric channel and the oracle channel stack
I do not believe the cleric channel and the oracle channel stack
He is right OP,
unless an ability specifically says that they stack, then they stack, otherwise you have two odd abilities.
RAW, they wouldn't stack, by GM fiat, anything is possible thought.
Yes, it applies to a life oracle's channel energy because the life oracle has the phrase: "effective cleric level". This ability increases your cleric level, thus it applies.
The Druid's animal companion regularly uses similar wording and abilities that apply to Druid animal companions also applies to animal companions of any class because those other classes reference "effective druid level".
As a side note, Order of the Star was written before any other classes had channel energy or lay on hands so it makes sense that it mentions only those two. This is clearly a case where it stating only those two is not exclusive.
|
Yes, it applies to a life oracle's channel energy because the life oracle has the phrase: "effective cleric level". This ability increases your cleric level, thus it applies.
The Druid's animal companion regularly uses similar wording and abilities that apply to Druid animal companions also applies to animal companions of any class because those other classes reference "effective druid level".
As a side note, Order of the Star was written before any other classes had channel energy or lay on hands so it makes sense that it mentions only those two. This is clearly a case where it stating only those two is not exclusive.
Life oracle = APG
Order of the Star = APGSame book. Maybe the author wasn't aware of the existence of the life oracle, but there was a play testing and a editorial phase, there was all the time to change the text.
I think they don't stack.
The description of the order of the star give some support to the idea that this ability work only for the followers of a deity:
Order of the Star
Cavaliers who join the order of the star dedicate themselves to the protection and service of a faith and its members. Cavaliers belonging to this order tend to follow many of the tenets and guides of the religion that they serve. When a cavalier joins this order, he should select a single religion to serve.
Oracles are divine casters but usually don't associate with a church.
hardly conclusive, but I don't think that the Order of the Star ability is meant to stack with the life oracle channel.To the OP: read the FAQ guidelines. Putting "FAQ" in the title of a thread is frowned upon.
And honestly "Came across this while theorycrafting" is hardly a Frequently Asked Question.
Diego Rossi,
Yes, Order of the Star is in the same book as a Life Oracle but that does not mean they were written in relation to each other. As has been shown repeatedly over the years, play testing and editorial phases catch only half the mistakes, if we are lucky.
In any case, as I stated, "effective cleric level" allows it to qualify just as "effective druid level" allows non-Druids with AC's to qualify for AC related feats and abilities.
|
|
Yes, it applies to a life oracle's channel energy because the life oracle has the phrase: "effective cleric level". This ability increases your cleric level, thus it applies.
The Druid's animal companion regularly uses similar wording and abilities that apply to Druid animal companions also applies to animal companions of any class because those other classes reference "effective druid level".
As a side note, Order of the Star was written before any other classes had channel energy or lay on hands so it makes sense that it mentions only those two. This is clearly a case where it stating only those two is not exclusive.
Life oracle = APG
Order of the Star = APGSame book. Maybe the author wasn't aware of the existence of the life oracle, but there was a play testing and a editorial phase, there was all the time to change the text.
I think they don't stack.The description of the order of the star give some support to the idea that this ability work only for the followers of a deity:
Order of the Star
Cavaliers who join the order of the star dedicate themselves to the protection and service of a faith and its members. Cavaliers belonging to this order tend to follow many of the tenets and guides of the religion that they serve. When a cavalier joins this order, he should select a single religion to serve.
Oracles are divine casters but usually don't associate with a church.
hardly conclusive, but I don't think that the Order of the Star ability is meant to stack with the life oracle channel.To the OP: read the FAQ guidelines. Putting "FAQ" in the title of a thread is frowned upon.
And honestly "Came across this while theorycrafting" is hardly a Frequently Asked Question.
*sigh* I can't win. Last time I posted a question to start a FAQ thread, I just posted a question, and marked it, and everyone told me to make it explicit in the title that the question was a FAQ question. Even though I hit the FAQ button.
Side note: obviously My question is the issue about order of the star. I'm sorry I did't start the question with the question. Too conversational a tone for a FAQ request?
Lastly: remember that channel energy is not an automatic class feature of the oracle. Unlike clerics and Paladins, you don't automatically get it: you only get it if you are a life oracle WITH THAT REVELATION. The authors may not have known how popular that choice would be and thus didn't think it worth mentioning that minor hiccup. Or you could be right. RAW I think I'm SOL, but I figured I'd ask.
The Channel ability doesn't stack from multiple classes per this FAQ (Cleric with Oracle of Life is the example). I'd suggest that the Order of the Star Channel stacking is explicit to just Cleric and Paladin, and other sources of Channel Energy would not get the bonus unless and until a FAQ comes out.
Otherwise, if you were Cleric 5/Oracle of Life 5/Order of the Star Cavalier 4 you could argue that you get the bonus on both pools of Channel Energy: Cleric for 5 (3d6) + 4/2 OotS Cavalier bonus or 7 levels worth (4d6), and Oracle for 5 (3d6) + 4/2 OotS Cavalier bonus or 7 levels worth (4d6).
I think people are confusing things. This is not Channel from multiple classes. This is bumping an ability that is 'effective <insert class X> level' with a feat or ability that calls out <insert class X>.
The answer should be yes, for the purposes of that ability you qualify because you count as a "insert class X".
It depends on if you count as X if you have effective levels of X or if you do something as an X of your level.
Does Banner of the ancient kings boost an evangelist cleric? he has inspire courage as a bard of his level, but he's not a bard.
Does this boost channeling from other classes than cleric, like the life oracle or a life shaman or the shaman archetype.
I know that Mark commented that the helm that boosts a barbarian's rage powers wouldn't work for a skald. So it seems that if it lists a class it really is only that class, even if you have effective levels of that class.
|
|
See? All this back-and-forth is why I asked for a FAQ clarification. My local Venture Lieutenant was a bit perplexed too. He said he (and the VC) would probably be okay with it, but that if I took it somewhere else, some other people wouldn't, and so table variation might kill the build. So he invited me to FAQ it to see if I could get an actual, official, answer.
well, good luck getting a FAQ for this. First you'll need to get like 50+ faqs on this. Then the PDT needs to address it, and as my previous post showed, if they think about allowing it at all they'll have to figure out all the situations where they have effective things. Or they'll just say no.
So it's not looking likely that you'll get an official answer that you'd like any time. for sure not soon.
your effective cleric level
+
The cavalier adds 1/2 his cavalier level to any levels of paladin or cleric he might possess
=
Stacking allowed IMHO.
I dunno. Effective druid level for animal companions always stacks, as long as the animals are compatible with all classes, even if you have no actual druid levels. So, there's some precedent there with one thing from a class stacking with something from a different class where both reference an effective level of a third class.
but we have a rule that says all effective druid levels stack for animal companions. We also have a rule that stacks things don't stack unless they say they do. So we have an issue. Does effectively being something allow me to benefit as if I was that something.
but we have a rule that says all effective druid levels stack for animal companions. We also have a rule that stacks things don't stack unless they say they do. So we have an issue. Does effectively being something allow me to benefit as if I was that something.
What's the point in saying you're effectively something if it has no bearing on any mechanics that effect said thing? Seems like a pretty questionable rules issue to have.
well you're effective for the thing you're using. Like the effective bard level for evangelist. The question goes does having an effective for your bard performance means you count as a bard with bard performance for items. That I think has no rules saying you do.
At 2nd level, the cavalier can make a short prayer as a standard action, filling him with confidence in his abilities. At any point in the next minute, he can receive a competence bonus on an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check equal to his Charisma modifier. He must declare that he is using this bonus before the roll is made. He can use this ability up to four times per day, once for each type of check or roll. In addition, the cavalier adds 1/2 his cavalier level to any levels of paladin or cleric he might possess for the purposes of determining the effects of channel energy or lay on hands.Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
So the question is: does the Order of the Star's ability allow them to add 1/2 their cavalier level to their EFFECTIVE cleric level that they get from being a life oracle?
I'd say that (unfortunately for you OP) it doesn't stack. The Order ability is allowing you to boost real cleric levels, while the oracle ability is allowing you to substitute your oracle levels wholesale for cleric levels (but they are still oracle levels).
The oracle ability is there so that you can get the bare class feature channel, it doesn't come with any bells and whistles attached IMO.
|
|
*sigh* I can't win. Last time I posted a question to start a FAQ thread, I just posted a question, and marked it, and everyone told me to make it explicit in the title that the question was a FAQ question. Even though I hit the FAQ button.
The Rules FAQ, and How to Use It (Sticky)
....
Should I put "FAQ request" or “Designer response needed” in my post or thread?
No.
Doing so suggests that your post or thread is more “worthy” of staff attention than someone else’s thread which doesn’t include this text.
Also, because having more FAQ clicks doesn’t make a thread more likely to be answered, doing this to encourage more FAQ clicks doesn’t help you.
Finally, most people insisting they need a designer or developer to weigh in with an official answer are in a situation where they’re disagreeing with the GM or another player and one side refuses to budge unless they get an official response from Paizo, and Paizo doesn’t want to encourage that sort of heavy-handedness.
You don't put it in the title of the thread. You put it in the text of your post.
I think that the opinion of "everyone" is worth less than that of the Paizo staff when you are making a thread on the Paizo forum.
|
|
*sigh* I can't win. Last time I posted a question to start a FAQ thread, I just posted a question, and marked it, and everyone told me to make it explicit in the title that the question was a FAQ question. Even though I hit the FAQ button.
The Rules FAQ, and How to Use It (Sticky)
....
Should I put "FAQ request" or “Designer response needed” in my post or thread?
No.
Doing so suggests that your post or thread is more “worthy” of staff attention than someone else’s thread which doesn’t include this text.
Also, because having more FAQ clicks doesn’t make a thread more likely to be answered, doing this to encourage more FAQ clicks doesn’t help you.
Finally, most people insisting they need a designer or developer to weigh in with an official answer are in a situation where they’re disagreeing with the GM or another player and one side refuses to budge unless they get an official response from Paizo, and Paizo doesn’t want to encourage that sort of heavy-handedness.You don't put it in the title of the thread. You put it in the text of your post.
I think that the opinion of "everyone" is worth less than that of the Paizo staff when you are making a thread on the Paizo forum.
Like I said, I can't win. I made it clear that I had a question and that I would like to see it officially answered, and people told me I did it wrong because I didn't make it obvious it was a FAQ-style question. That's a little silly though, I mean, I . . . well, it could go the other way too. I'll remember that for the future, thanks.
I don't want to dismiss any non-Paizo Employee's opinion. If someone found an old thread from five years ago that addressed this issue, or some FAQ I had managed not to find, I'd drop the issue. The thing is, there are some valid arguments, on both sides, so it seems like it isn't a black-and-white issue. I'm erring on the side of caution that says that it DOESN'T work until I can find out if it does.
|
|
I don't want to dismiss any non-Paizo Employee's opinion. If someone found an old thread from five years ago that addressed this issue, or some FAQ I had managed not to find, I'd drop the issue. The thing is, there are some valid arguments, on both sides, so it seems like it isn't a black-and-white issue. I'm erring on the side of caution that says that it DOESN'T work until I can...
My comment was only about the forum rules.
AFAIK there is no definitive answer. My opinion is that the Order of the Star ability work only for paladin and clerics, but the rules can be easily read the other way.As it is for PFS I fear the only answer is "aspect table variations".