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The setup is this:
Gloomblade level 9+
Improvised Weapon Master (Sledge) - grants the Gloomblade the ability to summon a shadow sledge.
Shikigami style tree (3 feats).
So the weapon, just as is, is a 6d6 +2 Weapon, with a let's say Frost or Ghost Touch added as the special ability at 9th.
Enter the Gloves of Improvised Might. Just +1 Enhancement. But with the THROWN quality.
The question is: would these abilities stack, like fire arrows +1 and a cold bow +1, or amulet of mighty fists with keen (because you can do slashing with fists, and it only applies to slashing fist attacks) and a elemental fist ability to do fire or something.
It seems to me logical that the abilities would stack (to a +10 total enhancement), but I also realize that this is "cheating" the cost of adding additional magic qualities to a melee weapon. But other than the cheese factor, is this legal? How do things like this stack? Do you treat it like ammo, or like two separate magic weapons - even though it is two magic effects adding to one magic weapon?
I expect this is similar to a magus using a magic weapon as well, but in that instance it specifically states that they can add xyz to it. Was this intended to be done with melee weapons like it is with ranged weapons and their ammos if you can get magical qualities from multiple sources to affect one weapon?
I guess another example would be simple spell effects on weapons that add fire or what not. This is above and beyond the fact that they might be a +5 Holy Avenger... making it a FLAMING +5 Holy Avenger. So I think I have my answer (they stack, even, perhaps, beyond the normal +10 limit). If you use a scabbard of keen edges on that same sword, for instance, it is now a KEEN +10 total weapon, making it a +11 total bonus weapon, and with the heat metal spell it would even do 1d4 (or whatever) fire damage to boot, making it effectively a +12 weapon.
While exploitive, does this sound reasonable then, to expect the Gloves to stack with the Gloomblade's normal weapon enhancements for a improvised weapon? Thoughts? Any RAW on this sort of combination?
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Shadow Weapon (Su): A gloomblade can create a shadowy weapon in a free hand as a move action.
Improvised Weapon Mastery
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
I don't see anything in Improvised Weapon Mastery that makes the improvised weapon a weapon, so I don't see how a Gloomblade will get the ability to create one with Shadow weapon taking the feat.
Do you mean a different feat? Better liking it to be sure of what you are speaking.
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maybe the OP meant the Improvisational Focus feat?
it says '..You are considered proficient with the improvised weapon..'
and the gloomblade ability call out:
"Shadow Weapon (Su): A gloomblade can create a shadowy weapon in a free hand as a move action. This can take the form of any melee weapon with which he is proficient..."
side note.
my English my be lacking but i think 'improvised weapon' has the word 'weapon' in it, so it is already considered a weapon (maybe not a manufactured one, or one you are usually proficient with).
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maybe the OP meant the Improvisational Focus feat?
it says '..You are considered proficient with the improvised weapon..'
and the gloomblade ability call out:
"Shadow Weapon (Su): A gloomblade can create a shadowy weapon in a free hand as a move action. This can take the form of any melee weapon with which he is proficient..."side note.
my English my be lacking but i think 'improvised weapon' has the word 'weapon' in it, so it is already considered a weapon (maybe not a manufactured one, or one you are usually proficient with).
Yes, improvised weapons have the word weapon in them, but improvised weapons aren't weapons, their very nature makes them not weapons.
To make a paragon, you can use a chair as a makeshift ladder, but it isn't a ladder and will never satisfy a workplace security requirement that requires having a ladder in place.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i agree that improvised weapon is not a manufactured weapon the same as two boxes used as an improvised ladder are not a manufactured ladder. but it is not 'not weapon'. you have manufactured weapon which is a weapon that was made to perform as such. natural weapons which is a weapon formed naturally (somewhat) without being manufactured and improvised weapon which was not meant to be a weapon but still can function as such.
what matter here is if it is a weapon of any kind that the gloomblade is proficient with.
the feat allow for the proficiency and the fact it's improvised doesn't make it any less weapon. (i don't go into 'manufactured' saying it's abilities and such work. im not saying it function to it's abilities. im saying it count as a weapon.)
for the gloomblade ability it should be enough.
improvised acting is still acting. i might not pay to watch a show made by improvising actors, but it doesn't make it any less of an 'act'.
for a contrast 'real life' is = 'not an act'.
'improvised x' doesn't mean 'not x' it mean an 'x made in improper\lacking way'. it would still be an 'x' as opposed to 'not x'.
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Weapons, in-game terms, means the things listed under the weapon section of the rules.
Rules that require weapons refer to that list of things, they can't be applied to stuff that isn't in that list or that hasn't a specific rule or descriptive text that says that it is a weapon.
It is not possible to say "X can be used as an improvised weapon, so I can apply the feats and abilities that apply to weapons to it".
It is how permissive rules work: you need them to permit you to do something.
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well that depend what the feat require.
if it need a weapon proficiency. say like weapon focus etc, then you need a feat like the one i linked to use it with improvised weapons. since you are never proficient with them without it.
but feat like ,say power attack, that effect the use of weapons without having proficiency as required matter, can be used with improvised weapons, even though they are not in the weapon table of the equipment chapter.
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Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modif ier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
It has some specific effect when use in conjunction with 2 handed weapons and off-hand weapons, but it doesn't require weapons to work. It requires attacks.
The effect of Shadow Weapon isn't to "create an item that can be used as an improvised weapon", it creates a "melee weapon with which he is proficient". An improvised weapon is an improvised weapon, not a melee weapon. Being proficient in improvised weapons doesn't make them weapons.
FAQ about longspear as improvised clubs
Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).
Using the longspear as an improvised weapon completely changes the applicable effects.
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yes i know about loosing specific weapon ability\feats. and i said so myself.
but while the spear being used as an improvised weapon doesn't get any special ability that work with 'spears' - it never said not to gain any that work with 'weapons'.
the fact you use it in a method not meant to be used and thus can't apply it's normal benefits, doesn't mean it is 'not a weapon' it mean it's 'not THAT weapon'. you fail to prove that an improvised weapon is a weapon by itself, i acknowledge it lose any special ability or feat that require a specific weapon (and have no proficiency. both of which are fixed by the feat i linked), but it is still not a 'not weapon'. it is an improvised weapon and with said feat it is one that the user is proficient with. and that is all that the gloomblade ability ask for. It never said it must be a melee weapon from the equipment list.
the FAQ you yourself quoted has this to say right in the start:
"You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares..."
now if the improvised weapon was not in fact A WEAPON. how does it threat?
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You are mixing things.
It is very simple:
The effect of Shadow Weapon isn't to "create an item that can be used as an improvised weapon", it creates a "melee weapon with which he is proficient". An improvised weapon is an improvised weapon, not a melee weapon. Being proficient in improvised weapons doesn't make them weapons. Meleed weapons are those things that are in the weapon tables in the different Paizo products or items that say specifically that there are weapons in their description.
You can't use Shadow Weapon to summon a table and dine "because the table can be used as an improvised weapon". You can't summon a tankard "because some classes and abilities allow you to use it as a weapon".
You can summon a shield and use it as an impromptu platter as it is a melee martial weapon.
The ability doesn't summon common items that can be used as weapons, it summon a specific set of items called weapons.
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Slightly off of the current debate here but I don’t think anything in the text so far precludes summoning say a greatsword as a weapon and then just bashing someone over the head with the flat of the blade as an improvised weapon ( probably a dealing damage equivalent to a greatclub in this example).
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You are mixing things.
It is very simple:
The effect of Shadow Weapon isn't to "create an item that can be used as an improvised weapon", it creates a "melee weapon with which he is proficient". An improvised weapon is an improvised weapon, not a melee weapon. Being proficient in improvised weapons doesn't make them weapons. Meleed weapons are those things that are in the weapon tables in the different Paizo products or items that say specifically that there are weapons in their description. ...
see here is what were arguing about. can you prove that "Meleed weapons are those things that are in the weapon tables in the different Paizo products or items that say specifically that there are weapons in their description" ? do you have it defined anywhere in the rules?
the problem is that improvised weapons can not be in any table since they are in fact EVERYTHING that can be used to damage some1. so asking for a table for them is foolish.
non the last if you read the equipment's weapon section you will see that :
A: improvised weapons definition IS part of that section, meaning they ARE WEAPONS.
and
B: in the weapon table there ARE improvised weapons if you care to look for them (make a search in the page) - for example the combat scabbard
so while i agree that without the proper feat you can not gain proficiency in improvised weapon (which bar the use of a lot of feats and abilities ,such as weapon focus etc) nor activate a specific weapon ability when using it in an improvised way.
by definition improvised weapon are still weapons and when a gloomblade gain proficiency in one of them (i believe the feat ask for a specific individual improvised weapon to be picked) he gain proficiency in it AND thus should be able to make a gloom-weapon of such item.
- since again the only requirements were : 'is a weapon' & 'is proficient in it'. being a 'manufactured' weapon is NOT a requirement.
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I just wanted to mention that the Equipment trick has this line:
If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.
This could be argued for both ways with one side saying that this means that improvised weapons, while not "normal" weapons are still weapons. On the other hand as this feat doesn't make them manufactured weapons, if they were already considered weapons, then this line would be useless.
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I just wanted to mention that the Equipment trick has this line:
If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.This could be argued for both ways with one side saying that this means that improvised weapons, while not "normal" weapons are still weapons. On the other hand as this feat doesn't make them manufactured weapons, if they were already considered weapons, then this line would be useless.
not useless since improvised weapon specifically call out to not use an item's special abilities or feats that have the item called out. using a spear as improvised weapon negate using the feats you have for spear, so without this you might have said you can't use item trick with said item since your improvising it's use.
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You are mixing things.
It is very simple:
The effect of Shadow Weapon isn't to "create an item that can be used as an improvised weapon", it creates a "melee weapon with which he is proficient". An improvised weapon is an improvised weapon, not a melee weapon. Being proficient in improvised weapons doesn't make them weapons. Meleed weapons are those things that are in the weapon tables in the different Paizo products or items that say specifically that there are weapons in their description. ...
see here is what were arguing about. can you prove that "Meleed weapons are those things that are in the weapon tables in the different Paizo products or items that say specifically that there are weapons in their description" ? do you have it defined anywhere in the rules?
the problem is that improvised weapons can not be in any table since they are in fact EVERYTHING that can be used to damage some1. so asking for a table for them is foolish.
non the last if you read the equipment's weapon section you will see that :
A: improvised weapons definition IS part of that section, meaning they ARE WEAPONS.
and
B: in the weapon table there ARE improvised weapons if you care to look for them (make a search in the page) - for example the combat scabbard
so while i agree that without the proper feat you can not gain proficiency in improvised weapon (which bar the use of a lot of feats and abilities ,such as weapon focus etc) nor activate a specific weapon ability when using it in an improvised way.
by definition improvised weapon are still weapons and when a gloomblade gain proficiency in one of them (i believe the feat ask for a specific individual improvised weapon to be picked) he gain proficiency in it AND thus should be able to make a gloom-weapon of such item.
- since again the only...
Permissive system: an item that is not defined as being part of a category isn't part of that category.
Improvised weapons have a separate entry from weapons, so they are in a separate category.For your argument to have a basis you need to find something that says that improvised weapons are part of the weapon category.
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how is having them IN the equipment>weapon section of the core rule book before ' weapon qualities' and after 'weapon size' is NOT in the weapon section?!?
as i said since they can not be listed, so of course they won't be on the table (beside the ones that were listed as the mentioned scabbard above)
are you saying weapon size rules and weapon qualities are not applied to weapons?!? because one is before he improvised weapon rules and the other after.
improvised weapon have rules in the weapon section along other weapon rules should be a big prof that they are considered weapons (up to the part that is specifically not. such as proficiency etc etc).
you are the one that take it out of their place. on what ground?!?
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how is having them IN the equipment>weapon section of the core rule book before ' weapon qualities' and after 'weapon size' is NOT in the weapon section?!?
An invalid argument, as you are replying to something different from what I said.
And the section you cite start with:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.
How can you argue that something "not crafted to be a weapon" is a weapon?
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Just becuase it was not crafted to be a weapon doesnt mean it is not a weapon. It only mean it is not a crafted weapon.
Now answer me if improvised weapon are not wrapon why are they in the weapon rules?
If they are not weapons do weapon size rulles also not aplly to weapons?
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Permissive system: an item that is not defined as being part of a category isn't part of that category.
But they are in the weapon category?
Not on the weapon table since you cant quantify them
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And just to add a point:
improvised weapons become improvised weapons only when they are used in combat. The Goomblade ability summon weapons, not furniture, carpenter tools, or crockery.
Not true. Nowhere is this is ruled.
Combat scabard is an improvised weapon for example before combatSame goes for the book a living grimore use
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Permissive system: an item that is not defined as being part of a category isn't part of that category.
But they are in the weapon category?
Not on the weapon table since you cant quantify them
Why does that exclude them from the weapon table?
You put - for the stats and "special" or "see text" if they are intended to be part of the weapon table.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Becuase you cant list them all.
Do you have natural weapon on that table?
It is a weapon as per weapon finesse.
Not being in the table doesnt exlude it
Hack i can argue that by the rules every weapon in the table is also improvised weapon. So in fact its in every line!
Its a rule just like weapon size. You want every weapon to have a littile dot saying: But when improvized it does x?
Its tidier to have it in the weapon category with its own sub section, and guess what? That is how it was written!
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RAW this will never work. If something creates a Weapon then it is by definition NOT an Improvised Weapon which is itself defined as something that is NOT an actual Weapon in the first place.
No amount of arm wrestling the rules will change that.
No it is by defenition not something created to be a weapon.
That,again, is not the same is not a weapon.It is only not a crafted weapon.
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First; melee, ranged, and thrown are categories of weapons. Improvised is a type. Like 1h, 2h, etc... Find a reasonable match to its list counter part. Meaning its equivalent to a melee weapon if used to make a melee attack. You can RAW state "it never says it's a melee weapon" to wit I'll reply: the definition of melee weapon makes it one (a weapon used to make a melee (category of attacks) attack).
Second: boy did this go sideways. Anyone want to answer the original question about stacking?
Say we come across a improvised+1 club (Clanky's leg?) - Do gloves if improvised might add to that?
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Say we come across a improvised+1 club (Clanky's leg?) - Do gloves if improvised might add to that?
The rules say that to enchant a weapon it needs to be a masterwork weapon. An improvised weapon can't be a masterwork weapon.
So an improvised club +1 is something invented by the GM, and is using that GM houserules. At that point, he decides what can be done with it.