Release after Dark Archive


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

keftiu wrote:

I’d certainly welcome a divine-focused book, for a number of reasons: a 2e Inquisitor, of course, but also more Champion Causes (for LN and CN, or not tied to alignment at all), some stuff to help followers of Neutral gods out, perk up the Divine spell list… a lot of stuff folks want could fit between the covers. There’s definitely faiths (Sarkorian God-Callers! Arcadian and Tian gods!) and churches (/please/ show me what Casandalee’s cult is up to!) that deserve some more in-depth looks.

The problem is where on Golarion to pair with such a thing.

Vudra ?


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The APs and the releases sometimes go hand in hand right? Like Book of the Dead presages Blood Lords, and KoM probably suggests something to do with the ongoing problem with the Whispering Tyrant, and Dark Archive suggests something spooky in the vein of Strange Aeons or similar.

So since they probably don't want to quadruple down on this sort of thing, what is a serious departure thematically that's still filling out the game with content people like. I'm thinking something planar or maybe first worldy.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd personally prefer single classes in a well defined book rather than 2 classes in a looser, less connected book, especially if they already have decent chapter formats.

Instead of a planar book (which could be kineticist and Inquisitor) it could be divided into:

1) Elemental planes (kineticist, air, water, earth, fire) maybe go book of the dead add an adventure to go free the remaining Elemental Lords

2) Aligned Planes (Inquisitor, celestials, monitors, fiends) give more info on settlements and deific demiplanes.

3) what I call the life planes (positive, negative, first world, and shadow planes)

Unrelated topics I want:

Explorers - world, region, nation traveler maps, random encounter tables and monster environment tables, trade routes and more vehicles.

Master players guide - like APG but just expand on everything we have by then, more subclasses and heritages, class archetypes, more feats, no new ancestry or class.

Darklands - playable drow and duergar, munavri, serpentfolk... more info on the layers and settlements, more monsters and so on.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
keftiu wrote:

I’d certainly welcome a divine-focused book, for a number of reasons: a 2e Inquisitor, of course, but also more Champion Causes (for LN and CN, or not tied to alignment at all), some stuff to help followers of Neutral gods out, perk up the Divine spell list… a lot of stuff folks want could fit between the covers. There’s definitely faiths (Sarkorian God-Callers! Arcadian and Tian gods!) and churches (/please/ show me what Casandalee’s cult is up to!) that deserve some more in-depth looks.

The problem is where on Golarion to pair with such a thing.

Seconded. Cleric tends to be my favorite to play, so some expanded content would be nice. To say nothing of the lack Doctrines.

That said, I would actually maybe like them to start with an Occult Tradition book, to tie into Dark Archives. As James Case stated, Dark Archive isn't THE Occult Tradition book, despite its heavy occult themes. That isn't to say we are certain to get one, but my hope is that we do. I think I speak for most when I say the Occult Tradition is the one I find most interesting to deeply explore. Truly, I would love a book for EACH of the four Traditions and what they mean in Golarion. So probably best as Lost Omens books. We did get SoM, but I kind of feel it left more questions than answers. Lol

Camata022 wrote:


Spoilers omitted

I don't see them doing another book of Classes outside of the APG; but, I do like the idea of dividing the various Planes into at least two books: the Inner Planes and Outer Planes. Maybe still do a general Great Beyond book, if for no other reason than to have a place to talk about Dimensions an Demiplanes (which could maybe be its own book too, tbh).

For their part, the Transative Planes (Shadow, Ethereal, Astral, and First World) and Energy Planes (Negative and Positive) are a part of the Inner Sphere; with the exception of the Astral Plane. But they could cover Atral in both books, describing how it interacts with the Inner and Outer Sphere respectively. They could also include it in the Inner Planes book, and then maybe use the Outer Planes book to cover what has been named the "Beyond Beyond" in a blog post; the presumed Planar nothingness that exists beyond the borders of the Malestrom and Outer Sphere.

Either way, that would give each book 10 Planes to go over. We had a few Planar books in 1e, which talked about a lot, but really left a lot to the imagination. Something more in-depth would be nice; and could be to the Primal and Divine Traditions that Dark Afchieve is to the Occult.


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Now that it has been mentioned, a book about divine stuff might be interesting. More Cleric doctrines and Champion causes/tenets. It could have the Inquisitor, too.


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Come to think of it... I could go all-in on an indulgent prediction and pitch a divine book paired with a Golden Road revisit. Qadira is famously devoted to Sarenrae, a faith shared with Osirion (alongside both other gods of Golarion and, unfortunately, the pantheon of Ancient Egypt) and one of Thuvia's primary city-states. Other cities in Thuvia cleave to different deities, while Ahriman's cultists and divs wreak havoc in the desert wastes. Rahadoum, famously anti-theist, became that way after the divine Oath Wars tore the region apart, and I bet all sorts of holy relics and shattered temples sit wait to be rediscovered.

Katapesh is the odd man out, but Katapesh is going to be weird until an identity beyond "drug-addled slave market land" can be hashed out for it.

Lost Omens: Legends teased a potential storyline involving algollthus across the region, and we all know how they feel about the gods.

Gozreh, Nethys, and Pharasma being major deities across the region boost the odds for Neutral divine character options. Achaekek and Norgorber's presence in the area during the Oath Wars could certainly offer nefarious Inquisitors, while those in service to more heroic deities might fight from the shadows against div cultists and algollthu schemes. There could be Rahadoumi anti-divine mechanical options.

Now, do I think this is likely? Not at all... but it's fun to dream!

Wayfinders

My one worry about a divine rulebook is that Lost Omens: Gods & Magic already exists.

Obviously it was a separate product line, and it did not include almost any of the things you are referring to, but just on the basis of similar thematics I think it might push it down the priority queue, even though it's also admittedly been a little while since it released - but I don't know on what 'thematic cooldowns' Paizo production schedules operate.

I would be delighted about a Golden Road book (lord knows it needs it, and frankly the wider RPG scene might need it because I have Very Mixed Feelings about Critical Role's Marquet, the main big Fantasy MENA right now; also rounding out the Garundi-based Inner Sea regions would be fantastic), but that doesn't seem to be what's immediately on the table.


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I know it's not really how release order works, but I really feel like the primal tradition needs more love. Only one dedicated primal class (I don't really count ranger), and few books with primal sort of flair. Occult has bards and psychics coming up, as well as dark archive (I know it's been stated it's not a dedicated occult book but I'm willing to bet it'll at least have more of an occult focus than other traditions). Divine has cleric and oracle, gods and magic, book of the dead, and likely a good bit of dark archive. Arcane has wizard and magus, and I would say secrets of magic had a bit more of an arcane focus (honestly arcane just by virtue of having the biggest spell list usually gets the most out of big spell dumps). I get the feeling that primal stuff is either not as fun to write or harder to write, not a lot of love for it in 2e


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I’m all for a divine or primal book

At this point, I think it’s unlikely that we’ll get a third rulebook this year unless it contains material that doesn’t require public playtesting…

Assuming Paizo keeps their model, Paizocon would have the announcement of next year’s ‘bestiary’ and Gencon would have the playtest and next august release…

They could change things up though


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
richienvh wrote:

I’m all for a divine or primal book

At this point, I think it’s unlikely that we’ll get a third rulebook this year unless it contains material that doesn’t require public playtesting…

Assuming Paizo keeps their model, Paizocon would have the announcement of next year’s ‘bestiary’ and Gencon would have the playtest and next august release…

They could change things up though

Its possible, in theory we've only playtested classes, so if the book has no full classes in it, there's no reason to playtest it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Really hoping we do get some more class stuff soon.

I have some PF1 friends I've gotten interested in the system who are still waiting for their favorite thing to get support.

And a few people who've never touched tabletops before and got curious after playing the WOTR computer game but are hesitant for similar reasons (sorta wish Paizo had done more to coordinate on that front but alas).


Squiggit wrote:

Really hoping we do get some more class stuff soon.

I have some PF1 friends I've gotten interested in the system who are still waiting for their favorite thing to get support.

What are they missing?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Inquisitor, Kineticist, and Bloodrager are the three big ones for them.

Kineticist is really popular with my friends who started with the PC games too.


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Squiggit wrote:

Inquisitor, Kineticist, and Bloodrager are the three big ones for them.

Kineticist is really popular with my friends who started with the PC games too.

Godspeed to them - I’d love all three of those back, and wouldn’t mind new takes on Medium and Shaman, too. Fingers crossed!


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Bloodrager really seems like it should have been an instinct in secrets of magic

But a kind of opposite magus could be fun- barbarian/sorcerer compared to wizard/fighter

Not sure what the sub classes would be. Mirrors of the barbarian ones? Bloodline based? Magic types ? I assume the bloodline part


Camata022 wrote:
I'd personally prefer single classes in a well defined book rather than 2 classes in a looser, less connected book, especially if they already have decent chapter formats.

They've got good reason to run it as two-class combos, though - they're trying to preserve playtest resources. They've already mentioned that they consider "willingness/ability of the playerbase to playtest" to be one of the major chokepoint resources on getting out new classes. Having them come out two at a time seems to be the sweet spot in terms of making use of that resource most efficiently.

Admittedly, they probably *could* do something like running a playtest on two different classes, and then have those classes come out in two different books, but I'm not sure how well that would fit with their internal scheduling.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I want a lost omens saga lands lost omens shackles lost omens first world or lost omens tian xia & mythic as the next big rulebook


belgrath9344 wrote:

oh please let a mythic book be in the works it & the cr26+ monsters like the horsemen are all I need for pf2e after book of the dead releases!!!

belgrath9344 wrote:
I want a lost omens saga lands lost omens shackles lost omens first world or lost omens tian xia & mythic as the next big rulebook

Make up your mind.


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Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
belgrath9344 wrote:

oh please let a mythic book be in the works it & the cr26+ monsters like the horsemen are all I need for pf2e after book of the dead releases!!!

belgrath9344 wrote:
I want a lost omens saga lands lost omens shackles lost omens first world or lost omens tian xia & mythic as the next big rulebook
Make up your mind.

Both of those quotes are asking for Mythic to be next in the rulebook line. All those setting books would be Lost Omens, and thus wouldn’t be competing with such a thing. Their post is internally coherent, there’s no need or reason to bully.


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Lanathar wrote:
Bloodrager really seems like it should have been an instinct in secrets of magic

I'm not sure "Bloodrager" needs to exist anymore. Since the whole draw of the class in PF1 for a lot of people was "rage warps you in weird, but useful ways" (e.g. long arms for the aberrant bloodrager). But the Barbarian already gets stuff like that in PF2 (you can grow big, turn into a frog, breathe fire like a dragon, etc.)

So to fulfill much of the Bloodrager's thematic promise you just need more instincts. For a lot of bloodragers I saw the ability to cast spells was very much secondary to the appeal of the character, so we could just replicate that with an archetype (maybe a class archetype?) to enable spellcasting while raging.

I absolutely would have played bloodragers without spells in PF1 if there was a commensurate archetype trade available, since I was there for the bloodline abilities.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:


I'm not sure "Bloodrager" needs to exist anymore.

I used to really think this way, but the more I look at it, the more difficult I feel like it would be to actually replicate everything the Bloodrager does in PF2. It feels like it would be very feat expensive for a Barbarian to gain the ability to cast spells while raging, keep up a spell progression, and get any of the other goodies the Bloodrager got.

You could try to hack it in, but I think the end result would be messy.

Basically, it "doesn't need to exist" in the same way the Magus, Swashbuckler, Investigator, Witch, Oracle, and Gunslinger "didn't need to exist" before they were printed.

Wayfinders

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Consider: barbarian focus spells (wrath spells?).


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Squiggit wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:


I'm not sure "Bloodrager" needs to exist anymore.

I used to really think this way, but the more I look at it, the more difficult I feel like it would be to actually replicate everything the Bloodrager does in PF2. It feels like it would be very feat expensive for a Barbarian to gain the ability to cast spells while raging, keep up a spell progression, and get any of the other goodies the Bloodrager got.

You could try to hack it in, but I think the end result would be messy.

Basically, it "doesn't need to exist" in the same way the Magus, Swashbuckler, Investigator, Witch, Oracle, and Gunslinger "didn't need to exist" before they were printed.

I feel like, in terms of replicating a class, what matters more than mechanics is thematics. The fighter having a dex-finesse mode right out of the box doesn't obsolete the Swashbuckler because there's nothing in the fighter kit that makes you better at being flashy, taking risks, landing one ending blow, etc. The rogue doesn't obsolete the Investigator since nothing in the rogue kit is about "finding things out." etc.

So the way I look at it is "what drew people to the Bloodrager in PF1" and for me a lot of it was just "your rage warps your body in weird, and obviously supernatural ways." Which is already built into the Barbarian's rage, so if we just got things like Aberrant, Fiendish, Celestial, etc. instincts for the Barbarian we're good.

The thing about spellcasting was largely an afterthought for a lot of Bloodragers in PF1 (I mostly just saw people casting buffs on themselves and also using a wand of infernal healing with out a UMD check). You could get more than enough spellcasting to replicate the Bloodrager's casting in an archetype a la the cathartic mage provided there's text that lets you do it while raging.


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When one of the podcast I listen to was switching to 2E on launch they happened to have an interview with Jason at the preceding Paizocon U.K.

He joked “you will have to kill off the Bloodrager”. So at least in his jokey interpretation the barbarian and their weird rage effects don’t mimic the bloodrager sufficiently

But that said I can see how it would work with more instincts and maybe some more feat options. I’m not sold on it needing it’s own class but wouldn’t be opposed


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In my private list of class conversions, the Medium is the only PF1 class left without even a reasonable approximation in PF2.


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David knott 242 wrote:


In my private list of class conversions, the Medium is the only PF1 class left without even a reasonable approximation in PF2.

Inquisitor, Kineticist, Shaman, and Medium all feel like they could come over as full classes.


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There's literally no limit to the number of classes you could add to a game like this, since top level choices only compete with each other at chargen.

It's just that some old classes might be less worthy of space in books to recreate than completely new classes would be.

Like give me weirder barbarian instincts and some archetype like the cathartic mage that lets me cast while raging and the bloodrager moves behind [theoretical new class] for me.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Iirc, they've stated they intend on taking a stab at the Shaman and Kineticist. And Inquisitor and Medium have been named dropped in such a way that feels indicative of possible hinting. Shifter I think has potential as well, maybe opening it up to more than just animals.

Bloodrager seems like it would be neat as a sort of Hybrid Archetype, specifically for those who either a Barbarian or Sorcerer and spec into the other one. Sort of similar to how the Druid and Wizard Archetypes specifically have special Feats that require you to take the Dedication; only you have to also be one of the classes as well. Then give it some Feats that take both Class Features and mix them in a unique way.

All the other 1e Classes, as they were presented, I think have the potential as either Archetypes of some kind or Class Paths. But Paizo has shown they are very capable of breathing new life into any Class, so I don't discount the potential of any of them.


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I believe Michael Sayre has expressed interest in a 2e Shaman that actually draws more on real-world shamanic practices, and that's something I'd be giddy to see. There's also been official acknowledgment of the demand for Kineticist, and I'm sure they can see the very vocal Inquisitor crowd (it's not just me - people keep making homebrew/3pp takes on the concept!) as well. Those plus Medium, which have been mentioned in 2e texts, all seem like very likely contenders to come over.

Bloodrager I love, but I think is destined to be a Class Archetype, and I think Shifter's in the same boat. I hope both get to be powerful if and when they do get made.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Archetype or no, I hope to see Shifter as a sort of Pathfinder Evolutionist, taking on various forms and abilities of the plethora of creatures through some quasi-magical means, sort of how Thamaturges magic works, even though they arent spellcasters. Might step on the Sorcerers toes a bit though.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
keftiu wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:


In my private list of class conversions, the Medium is the only PF1 class left without even a reasonable approximation in PF2.
Inquisitor, Kineticist, Shaman, and Medium all feel like they could come over as full classes.

There are at least 3 3rd party Kineticists for PF2.

I have 1 3rd party conversion listed for each of Inquisitor and Shaman.

In the original conversion document, the Medium and the Shaman have asterisks next to them, which mean "Those classes marked with an asterisk (*) are very difficult to convert using the rules that are currently available, so it might be better to find a different way entirely to express these characters for now."

So while we are still waiting for official conversions of the Inquisitor, Kineticist, and Shaman, we do have something usable for each of these classes. I haven't seen a 3rd party PF2 Medium for sale yet.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Technically speaking, Legendary made the Medium a subclass of their Shaman.

I could have sworn that Pathfinder Infinite had one, but I can't find it now. I suppose that give me incentive to finally revise mine, especially in light of several new classes and playtests that have been released.

Liberty's Edge

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David knott 242 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:


In my private list of class conversions, the Medium is the only PF1 class left without even a reasonable approximation in PF2.
Inquisitor, Kineticist, Shaman, and Medium all feel like they could come over as full classes.

There are at least 3 3rd party Kineticists for PF2.

I have 1 3rd party conversion listed for each of Inquisitor and Shaman.

In the original conversion document, the Medium and the Shaman have asterisks next to them, which mean "Those classes marked with an asterisk (*) are very difficult to convert using the rules that are currently available, so it might be better to find a different way entirely to express these characters for now."

So while we are still waiting for official conversions of the Inquisitor, Kineticist, and Shaman, we do have something usable for each of these classes. I haven't seen a 3rd party PF2 Medium for sale yet.

There are some 3PP mediums available, like this one on itch.io! :)


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keftiu wrote:
Bloodrager I love, but I think is destined to be a Class Archetype, and I think Shifter's in the same boat. I hope both get to be powerful if and when they do get made.

You *could* make the bloodrager as a class archetype. I kind of hope they don't, though, because class archetypes seem like they're almost invariably anemic and weak-feeling, and "anemic and weak" should not be the feeling that you get from "like a barbarian, but more explosions". At the same time, I can at least see how you'd get there from here.

Shifter? No. The only version of shifter that you could even try to run with a class archetype would be the "druids, but buff Wild Shape and lose some spellcasting" and that's really selling short the possibilities. Like, it's a decent class archetype, but it doesn't even start to cover what shifter could be.


While I'd love to see a PF2 Inquisitor, Shaman, & Shifter, I just want Paizo to get over their fear of Wisdom.

After Dark Archive there will be 2/22 classes that are Wis primary. As of now there is 1/3 of a subclass (Eldritch Trickster) that is Wis primary/secondary and it's ... not good. Forensic Medicine Investigator doesn't really count due to Medicine's fixed DC, the skill-ups Investigators get, and Assurance being a thing. Rangers can make good use of Wis w/ the Monster Hunter feat tree but it's not really a subclass. Ranger & Monk casting are Wis based but work w/o wisdom unless you're a monk focusing on offensive spells.

I get that every class wants wisdom but Paizo needs to quit pumping-up Cha/Int. Wisdom doesn't have a pick your list or spontaneous class (fingers crossed for Shaman.) Caster multiclassing w/ Wis is limited to Divine unless you go full Dex thanks to the Druid anathema. There is no way to use Wis for innate casting, Int at least has Eldritch Researcher. There are no good Wis subclasses, even ones that seem obvious like a Detective subclass for Investigator/Rogue.

I just feel like wisdom is treated like a red-headed stepchild w/ omegacron Covid that's been quarantined since the edition came out given how little they've done with it. (/end hyperbole)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

More Inquisitors are mentioned in the Absalom book. Doesn't mean it's foretelling anything but they seem to still be a staple of the world given the numerous mentions.


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Zabraxis wrote:

While I'd love to see a PF2 Inquisitor, Shaman, & Shifter, I just want Paizo to get over their fear of Wisdom.

After Dark Archive there will be 2/22 classes that are Wis primary. As of now there is 1/3 of a subclass (Eldritch Trickster) that is Wis primary/secondary and it's ... not good.

Okay, let's look at the list. I'm ignoring stuff that's specific to individual paths unless it's a core part of the class.

//==================

Str/Dex sole: Barbarian, Champion, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Swashbucker

Str/Dex partial: Alchemist, Magus, Investigator, Inventor, Thaumaturge

Str/Dex eats a *lot* of slots. I'm stuffing them together because trying to differentiate would be more hassle than it's worth, given that we're mostly talking about Wis.

/*******/

Cha primary: Bard, Oracle, Sorceror, Summoner

Cha partial: Thaumaturge, Psychic

If you split the Str/Dex classes evenly between the two stats, each would wind up with. pretty much as many as Cha has, both on primary and on partial. Cha is doing pretty well.

/*******/

Int primary: Witch, Wizard

Int partial: Alchemist, Inventor, Investigator, Magus, Psychic

Only two classes that are sole int, though it does have a decent distribution of partials

/*******/

Wis primary: Cleric, Druid

Wisdom is looking pretty weak there. You're right about that. If you count each partial as half a class, they have only half as many as Int, the next better.

/*******/

Con primary: absolutely nothing

...but wisdom also isn't dead last.

//==================

So yeah, Wisdom is down towards the bottom. I don't know that I buy "fear" here, though. I'm also not convinced by "not good". I mean, it's true. Wis classes seem to be limited to those that are channeling their abilities from a friendly higher power (as opposed to Oracles, who are stealing power from unfriendly higher powers). Paizo hasn't printed any of those since Book 1. So... this is an issue how? How does it make the game significantly worse that it is so?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I think when he said “not good”, he meant Eldritch Tricksters weren’t good.

Edit: Further, while “fear” is probably hyperbole, the lack of wisdom primary subclasses in the dark archive playtest was pretty noticeable. Both thaums and psychics have themes that would lend themselves well to primary or high wisdom builds, but it was eschewed for both.


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Wisdom is one of those stats that's very strong on its own so I understand how we're less inclined to make it a primary stat on a class than some others. But other than casters who basically inherit their primary statistic from previous versions, the primary stat for a class is largely thematic.

Investigators, Inventors, and Alchemists are INT classes because thematically they're about "knowing things."

Summoners and Thaumaturges are CHA classes because thematically they're about "cultivating relationships".

For everybody else, your job is about hitting things with something so you're DEX or STR based since those are the stats for doing that.

So what would a Wis-primary or Wis-partial class even be like thematically? I know Paizo says they're not interested in box checking, but a wave caster a la the Magus who is powerfully intuitive (whose magic is more about buffing and resiliency, so as to not challenge the Magus as an alpha striker). But since Wis does so much on its own (Will, Perception, several very useful skills) I understand why they're hesitant to let classes base more extra things than "DCs" on it.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
So yeah, Wisdom is down towards the bottom. I don't know that I buy "fear" here, though. I'm also not convinced by "not good". I mean, it's true. Wis classes seem to be limited to those that are channeling their abilities from a friendly higher power (as opposed to Oracles, who are stealing power from unfriendly higher powers). Paizo hasn't printed any of those since Book 1. So... this is an issue how? How does it make the game significantly worse that it is so?

Fear might be a strong word. I don't mean it derogatorily. They just seem to be avoiding wisdom like the plague and I'm not sure why. Poor planning? Core design principles? Simple oversight? The comfort level doing interesting things w/ Int/Cha vs Wis? No idea. Whatever their reason wisdom is due for a little love.

How does it makes the game worse? For most it doesn't but for me it does. The majority of the classes I leaned towards in PF1 are wisdom based and do not exist yet in PF2. However, Paizo ignoring wisdom while inventing cool new classes(Inventor) and elegantly refining the classes they port has eaten up my "I can wait my turn" good will. I want to see what they do w/ wisdom but if its weighted so heavily they won't use it, why have wisdom as a stat in game at all?

The "Everyone wants wisdom so we're not going to give it any additional perks" argument is flawed because stats are not mutually exclusive this edition. 4 ability boosts are enough to cover Con/Dex/Wis + Primary stat giving everyone big3 benefits on top of their primary stat benefits. Wisdom doesn't get much in that way a Cleric can pump Cha for extra healing and that's about it.

AnimaterPaper clarified already, the "not good" was about the Eldritch Trickster as a subclass regardless of stat picked.

As far as thematic ideas go: a detective that uses intuition as well as intellect seems a good subclass for Investigator. An observant forward lookout fits rogue/ranger. (The Scout archetype kinda covers this but is almost exclusively stealth focused.) Hunter is a prime wave-caster candidate for PF2 conversion behind Inquisitor. A wisdom subclass of whatever the Shifter ends up being seems thematic too. Combat Meditation/Focus (3.5) are concepts that could explore wisdom in combat. An Herbalist that isn't exclusively about healing and 1/2 as effective in town.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zabraxis wrote:
4 ability boosts are enough to cover Con/Dex/Wis + Primary stat giving everyone big3 benefits on top of their primary stat benefits.

Which in turn means that Dex and Wis primary classes are a lot more flexible as a result, since they now have a free ability boost even after accounting for their saves and primary attribute.


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...and dex classes pay for it (generally) by not being able to apply one of their core stats to damage.

Liberty's Edge

WIS is already so good that it makes any WIS-based class already powerful. To balance this, the rest of the class would have to be subpar compared to non-WIS based classes.

I think they want to avoid this.


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I feel like the safe way to do something like a "WIS Magus" is to make the entire kit about buffing and defense on top of regular martial proficiencies.

I think that inherently makes the class less objectionable. Like the Bard is one of the most objectively powerful classes in PF2, but no one resents the Bard because in every party the Bard is a helper (and ironically not a spotlight stealer).

For example, compare the PF1 Magus to the PF1 archetypes for the Spiritualist that traded away the Phantom for spellstrike. The Spiritualist got much more utility out of their base stat being Wis instead of Int, but they had a much less offensive spell list and set of class features so the "Summered in Minata, Scimitar Dancing, Shocking Grasp" magus was not threatened.


Unicore wrote:

It seems like "mythic" would be really easy to do as a free archetype option where the archetype feats granted activities and abilities that push towards legendary from the beginning. You just would gain them right at level 1. Dedication feats could grant extra HP and something like a mythic surge ability and each could have class feats and skill feats built into it. Many of the PF1 mythic abilities could translate easily into feats like power attack or double slice, except give even more action economy benefits or narrative controlling features.

Make them rare or even possibly unique options and there really wouldn't be that many balance issues.

From the GM side, they would just need to develop some mythic templates similar to Elite that grant similar mythic feeling activity options, although I agree that most of the book would need to go towards guidance of how to make mythical feel like a higher tier of narrative power-based story telling, instead of "same story but with more powerful characters."

I don't know if it is intentional or not, but you've literally described the approach I am taking on my homebrewed second edition of Mythic rules, currently sitting at a little over 160 pages.

The big change from my first addition is Mythic Archetypes with dedication feats, which get substantial benefit even just from the initial feat: basic spellcasting, combat feats, expert skills, Hit Points, and/or modifications to an ability called "Surge."


PossibleCabbage wrote:
but no one resents the Bard

I would posit that this is not correct. I've actually seen a decent bit of bard resentment - not of the people playing as Bards, necessarily, but of the Bard class itself? Oh, yes.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

WIS is already so good that it makes any WIS-based class already powerful. To balance this, the rest of the class would have to be subpar compared to non-WIS based classes.

I think they want to avoid this.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think wisdom is that powerful, really. Maybe worth consideration, but not to the extent that some folks fear. Maybe I'm just overlooking something.


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Sporkedup wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

WIS is already so good that it makes any WIS-based class already powerful. To balance this, the rest of the class would have to be subpar compared to non-WIS based classes.

I think they want to avoid this.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think wisdom is that powerful, really. Maybe worth consideration, but not to the extent that some folks fear. Maybe I'm just overlooking something.

Perception and will saves are more directly helpful in a fight than what the other mental scores have. I think charisma is pretty close though for a caster thanks to demoralize and bon mot.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
AnimatedPaper wrote:

Technically speaking, Legendary made the Medium a subclass of their Shaman.

I could have sworn that Pathfinder Infinite had one, but I can't find it now. I suppose that give me incentive to finally revise mine, especially in light of several new classes and playtests that have been released.

By my own rules I have to accept that Shaman practice in Legendary Mediums.

And I think I have an early draft of your version, if you are the one who put out something here for free. I am looking forward to your completion of it.

Liberty's Edge

Sporkedup wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

WIS is already so good that it makes any WIS-based class already powerful. To balance this, the rest of the class would have to be subpar compared to non-WIS based classes.

I think they want to avoid this.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think wisdom is that powerful, really. Maybe worth consideration, but not to the extent that some folks fear. Maybe I'm just overlooking something.

Perception

Initiative

Will saves

Medicine

Nature and Religion RK (Animals, Plants, Fungi, Beasts, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, Celestials, Monitors, Undead)

Even Survival is good both to survive in the wilds and to find and follow tracks.

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