Release after Dark Archive


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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I've mentioned elsewhere, but my idea for the Skald is not to dissimilar to what people have mentioned. I would make their "performances" be more like poetic verses and give more specific benefits to one or two people. I think that would make it distinct enough from the Bard as well as tying into the themes better.

I could see a Shaman subsuming some aspects of the Medium, actually. Channeling spirits is something not uncommon with ancestor worship (please correct me if this is an outdated term) and animism.

Liberty's Edge

Corwin Icewolf wrote:
Xethik wrote:


Moment of Clarity is only first level, so a later career boost to it seems reasonable. It could even be a class archetype like the Gunslingers, locking you into a specific Instinct.
It could also itself be an instinct that gives you sorcerer dedication, and some new tricks along with it. Of course, presumably they'd have to figure out anathema for it.

Voluntarily leaving Rage without having cast a single spell.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
4LeafChloe wrote:
Look, whatever the books may be, I only have one ask. Crab ancestry. Not necessarily a *literal* crab (though I would not complain), but rather a crab inspired ancestry of sorts, carapace and all!
I would love this! Five Torches Deep just added crabfolk in the newest book, and I welcome any non-mammal Ancestry.

May I draw you attention to the Murajau. Paizo hasn't stated them up as an Ancestry, yet. But they are Pathfinder's very own crab folk. And they have at least one possible Heritage in the form of the Paguroida. The stats for the Murajau in 1E are size Large, but this can easily be adjusted in 2E to size Medium. And, like the Iruxi, they could have an option to become size Large at higher levels. Some Murajau may be able to literally molt into size Large at higher levels.


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Shirren_Human_Expert wrote:
thank you! That makes a lot of sense now. I've never heard to them referred to as wave casters so I was very confused! I'll file them under warlock in the DnD part of my brain while I figure out how to do PF2

Lore-wise warlock is the witch in this system (power granted by mysterious patrons for nebulous purposes). It's why I love the witch so much from a narrative standpoint.


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Now that the Quest of the Frozen Flame character guide is out, and it contains rules for leadership and cohorts, I'm more curious than ever if we're headed towards an organization book of some sort.

Scattered through APs (including Kingmaker) are:
1. Rules to run a castle
2. Rules to run an army
3. Rules to run a kingdom
4. Rules to run a circus
And now 5. Rules to run an organization from small tribe to decently well populated town in size.

Not to mention participating in specific organizations like a school, circus, and a police force.

Seems like it would make a lot of sense to consolidate and clean up the various rules into a single sourcebook, since it keeps coming up.


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I read this thread title as "After-Dark Archive" and started panicking that a fifth thread about Golarion's tone and target age demographic had been started.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
I read this thread title as "After-Dark Archive" and started panicking that a fifth thread about Golarion's tone and target age demographic had been started.

Nah, it's just a book about night life in Golarion.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Isn’t the “After-Dark Archive” a section in the back of the Dawn flower library in Otari?


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I would be pleased with any of these releases.


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give me mythic rules or it's equivalent please please pleeeeessse! or a book on daemons & abadoon for 2e (yes I know there was a 1 e version) I need a 2e version !


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Unicore wrote:
Isn’t the “After-Dark Archive” a section in the back of the Dawn flower library in Otari?

No, I think you're thinking of the Dusk Flower Library; they're commonly confused.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Perpdepog wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Isn’t the “After-Dark Archive” a section in the back of the Dawn flower library in Otari?
No, I think you're thinking of the Dusk Flower Library; they're commonly confused.

I am pretty sure the duskflower library would be before the dark, not after it.

Liberty's Edge

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AnimatedPaper wrote:

Now that the Quest of the Frozen Flame character guide is out, and it contains rules for leadership and cohorts, I'm more curious than ever if we're headed towards an organization book of some sort.

Scattered through APs (including Kingmaker) are:
1. Rules to run a castle
2. Rules to run an army
3. Rules to run a kingdom
4. Rules to run a circus
And now 5. Rules to run an organization from small tribe to decently well populated town in size.

Not to mention participating in specific organizations like a school, circus, and a police force.

Seems like it would make a lot of sense to consolidate and clean up the various rules into a single sourcebook, since it keeps coming up.

I thought the Leadership rules in the PG were taken wholecloth from the GMG with some added info specific to the AP.


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Useful data points for anyone trying to guesswork this one out:

2022 is giving us Book of the Dead and Dark Archive in the core line, and Knights of Lastwall for Lost Omens; we're getting Quest for the Frozen Flame, Outlaws of Alkenstar, and Blood Lords as our APs for the year. Given that we're seeing two APs there back to back + a focus on Geb in Book of the Dead + a wayward comment at Gen Con, I think it's pretty safe to say the Lost Omens line is also giving us an Impossible Lands book.

Undead in Book of the Dead, Knights of Lastwall, and Blood Lords. Dark Archives has time-related mysteries, while Outlaws of Alkenstar has an "abandoned temple of time" in volume two; the former also gives us a Psychic class, while Jalmeray is a hub of psychic study in the Inner Sea region (and thus, likely in an Impossible Lands LO book as well). With the exception of Quest for the Frozen Flame, pretty much everything has at least some element of 'spooky stuff,' which seems to be the uniting theme for much of the year's releases.

What does that mean for our mystery book? At the risk of self-parody, I do think 2e's Inquisitor analogue has a shot - the Knights of Lastwall likely have a fair few in their ranks dedicated to Pharasma, Ragathiel, and Arazni, hunting the undead scourge, while Geb likely has no shortage of sneaky, murderous servants of dark gods one might likely play in Blood Lords. Nethys likely looks to subtler agents than Champions and Clerics in Nex, and I bet the cult of Abraxas similarly sticks to the shadows.

As for what book the class fits in, I'm less certain - what rules fit a year of mystery and horror-adjacent fun? What's weird enough to join the playable ranks alongside Thaumaturge, Psychic, and Inquisitor? My earlier guess of a book with mass combat and a warlord increasingly feels like it doesn't fit, but I'm not confident in the thing to replace it.

But I think my favorite class has a genuine shot.


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keftiu wrote:

Useful data points for anyone trying to guesswork this one out:

2022 is giving us Book of the Dead and Dark Archive in the core line, and Knights of Lastwall for Lost Omens; we're getting Quest for the Frozen Flame, Outlaws of Alkenstar, and Blood Lords as our APs for the year. Given that we're seeing two APs there back to back + a focus on Geb in Book of the Dead + a wayward comment at Gen Con, I think it's pretty safe to say the Lost Omens line is also giving us an Impossible Lands book.

Undead in Book of the Dead, Knights of Lastwall, and Blood Lords. Dark Archives has time-related mysteries, while Outlaws of Alkenstar has an "abandoned temple of time" in volume two; the former also gives us a Psychic class, while Jalmeray is a hub of psychic study in the Inner Sea region (and thus, likely in an Impossible Lands LO book as well). With the exception of Quest for the Frozen Flame, pretty much everything has at least some element of 'spooky stuff,' which seems to be the uniting theme for much of the year's releases.

What does that mean for our mystery book? At the risk of self-parody, I do think 2e's Inquisitor analogue has a shot - the Knights of Lastwall likely have a fair few in their ranks dedicated to Pharasma, Ragathiel, and Arazni, hunting the undead scourge, while Geb likely has no shortage of sneaky, murderous servants of dark gods one might likely play in Blood Lords. Nethys likely looks to subtler agents than Champions and Clerics in Nex, and I bet the cult of Abraxas similarly sticks to the shadows.

As for what book the class fits in, I'm less certain - what rules fit a year of mystery and horror-adjacent fun? What's weird enough to join the playable ranks alongside Thaumaturge, Psychic, and Inquisitor? My earlier guess of a book with mass combat and a warlord increasingly feels like it doesn't fit, but I'm not confident in the thing to replace it.

But I think my favorite class has a genuine shot.

Well, thinking back to the Occult Adventures book of 1E, which was full of spoopiness, you had Psychic (has returned), Mesmerist (might have been eaten by Psychic), Kineticist (belongs in a Primal/Planar book), Occultist (may or may not have been eaten by the Thaumaturge), Spiritualist (eaten by Summoner wholesale), and finally Medium (which has NOT seen a return in any form). So I can see an Inquisitor & Medium/new-ish class book coming at the start of next year to put a nice bow on this train of spook before shifting focus to some other flavor of theming and jolly wonder (please be fae stuff!).


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Keftiu Holmes is on the case!

Seriously, though: This is awesome stuff.


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I don't expect a second spooky rule book after dark archive. My wild guess is after all this bleak (lastwall), spooky, occult, or undead content the next rulebook will be a religious one about about battling such forces or aiding their agendas with DIVINE MIGHT!!! It'll have inquisitor and shaman as the classes with lots of additional content for clerics, oracles and champions. It'll have either more gods or build your own god stuff for pilfering SoM spell content for the divine classes. It'll have divine or divine adjacent archetypes that I can't think of right now. It'll explain playing religious characters so fidora tipping atheists like me can go about it respectfully with a more fleshed out character. It'll be called PATHFINDER: FAITH AND FERVOR (help me workshop a title that works).

Liberty's Edge

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Intrigue and skills book with the Inquisitor (as Divine Black Ops).


The Raven Black wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:

Now that the Quest of the Frozen Flame character guide is out, and it contains rules for leadership and cohorts, I'm more curious than ever if we're headed towards an organization book of some sort.

Scattered through APs (including Kingmaker) are:
1. Rules to run a castle
2. Rules to run an army
3. Rules to run a kingdom
4. Rules to run a circus
And now 5. Rules to run an organization from small tribe to decently well populated town in size.

Not to mention participating in specific organizations like a school, circus, and a police force.

Seems like it would make a lot of sense to consolidate and clean up the various rules into a single sourcebook, since it keeps coming up.

I thought the Leadership rules in the PG were taken wholecloth from the GMG with some added info specific to the AP.

Hmm, so they are. I think I ignored them in the GMG so thoroughly I forgot they were there.

I still think the subsystem could be expanded and refined based on the “testing” the AP is about to go through, and with the benefit of these adventures being written and developed using that subsystem.

Either way, should be announced pretty soon.


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I now feel very stupid for not remembering that Mediums got a shoutout as being divine in Secrets of Magic - someone who talks to the dead would fit the themes for 2022 extra well, and could pair nicely with a reworked Inquisitor.

A big Divine book would be a joy for me!

EDIT: In my wildest dreams, this book also has Neutral Champions.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Intrigue and skills book with the Inquisitor (as Divine Black Ops).

Any book that delivers a big lump of new Skill Feats would be sorely appreciated, so I think this has a shot. Classes tend to come in twos, and I think the ready fit for this is one I’s be ecstatic about: Pathfinder’s answer to the Envoy, as a non-magical support character. Would dovetail nicely with the intrigue focus of Blood Lords.

You could probably even build the not!Envoy to play like the Warlord class me and so many others want, too.


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I’m guessing a divine focused book or a primal focused book. I don’t know if there’s a pattern but secrets of magic (arcane), guns and gears (martial), and dark archives (occult) makes me think that. But everyone knows more than me about how Paizo works :)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm not really wild about Mediums as they exist in PF1 just becoming a divine class in PF2.

But I sort of like the idea of cribbing the skeleton of the PF1 Medium for a more animist or pantheistic take on a cleric.

Like right now divine classes either focus on a specific patron or don't really interact directly with the divine at all, but there are a lot of religious traditions that take a, I'm not sure what the best word here would be but broader approach to spirituality.

I feel like there's a really cool idea both mechanically and thematically for a character who might invoke or turn to a specific deity not because they're their sworn patron, but specifically in relation to their circumstances.

It also feels like something that just would make a lot of sense given how divinity works on Golarion. Making an offering to Gozreh before going out on a sea voyage, performing a Gorumite ritual before marching off to battle or pouring one out for Cayden when they have a night on the town.

...Feel like that could be a really neat take on the Medium mechanical framework (with a specific ritual providing specific benefits for the day) and an approach to divnity that feels both really obvious yet oddly hard to emulate in the actual game right now.

A little off topic but keftiu mentioned divine mediums and my mind started wandering.


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I’m not fully convinced mediums will be divine. I don’t read their mention in Secrets of Magic as definitively saying that they are. Strongly suggestive, yes, given they’re mentioned in the same breath as Oracles, but I dont think it fully locks them into any particular implementation.

Other suggestions:, Faise Mediums in the same book learn occultism, not religion (although they also learn Deceptive Worship). Seers of the Dead learn religion, which makes sense given their link to undead (which is tied to religion).

Hmm, I think with that last point, I’ve talked myself into seeing how they could work as Divine. Been about a year since my last pass at my homebrew; turning them into a divine character wouldn’t be too much effort.


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If I get my two most-wanted 2e classes (Psychic and Inquisitor) in the same year, I’ll be over the moon.


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So... I've previously noted that the As Yet Unknown book would make sense as one to drop a wave caster class in (the right amount of time since Book of Magic to get whatever feedback they're going to get on balance tuning). @keftiu's point on thematics of the year and whatnot is also fairly solid. I think there's a solid argument to be made that "book that somehow contains inquisitor (Intercessor!)" is a solid pick there. The issue, then, is what that book is and what else it might contain... and I don't think it'll contain another divine class.

The Intercessor is filling a number of pretty obvious holes, mechanically. It's the striker divine class, it's the skill-based divine class, it's the wave-caster gish divine class. There are a number of character concepts that simply cannot be covered by any existing classes that the Intercessor slots right into. I... just dont' see another divine class as having anything like as large a space to fill.

On the other hand... we have an arcane wave caster. We have a pick-one wave caster. Inquisitor would be a divine wave caster. What better for the spookytimes than an occult wave caster?

So, working on the idea that PF2 will give you your beloved classes and maybe twist them a bit... what about Medium as an occult wave caster? Rather than being a fighter/caster gish, it's an envoy/caster gish - one that eats a bunch of the old 3.x Binder concept (as the Medium does, but possibly even moreso). Basically, they serve as diplomats between the living and the dead, and the spirits that they channel give them little tricks that they can use along the way, but those tricks are something like half of the build budget. It comes together into a nice little book about how people handle the interactions between the mundane and the spiritual, and gives us two very different character types that could both easily fit into a cloak-and-dagger approach to the undead in two very different ways.

Of course, they could do the same class but without the vancian casting, and with even more tricks, and I personally would not mind at all, but as I've said, I don't expect us to get our slotless casters quite yet. It's better to wait until Dark Archive has had a chance to settle. I can be patient.


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...I would go absolutely crazy for a year that gave me Psychic, Inquisitor, /and/ Binder.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just realized I originally made this post in a thread for Lost Omens, rather than for Pathfinder rulebooks. Silly me.

A naval adventures and a military-themed rulebook are currently my most hoped-for things after Dark Archive.

I had a subsystem for a Battlefront or League of Legends "conquer enemy command zones" concept I've been trying to figure out, which would chain encounters together in an epic clash to simulate the players's role in a battle between armies. Hidden for anyone interested in reading it. I'd love to see something at least a little like this in a martial book: something that would allow you to simulate encounters between players tactically commanding an army and large, opposing armies pitted against them — without having to actually play as an army itself. A different flavor for those climactic fights in a campaign that don't have to revolve around a few adventurers skirmishing with an ultrapowerful boss unit. Narrative variety is fun.

battlefield subsystem concept:
The system chains encounters together in three phases: a tactical phase, where PCs or the GM can purchase helpful effects that would automatically occur in battle, a skirmish phase where combat would occur normally (although units can use three actions during a skirmish to buy more effects), and a long rest after the skirmish's end. Repeat.

The larger battle would revolve around claiming command zones (which inflict passive damage each round to attacking units), and a finite army budget which carries over from battle to battle. In each skirmish, one side is assumed to be attacking, and the other defending. Army budgets can apply different tactical effects during skirmishes (either passive or activated on command, or to grant combatants in a skirmish a unique tactical bonus), but once your budget runs out, your army is considered depleted and you lose. Likewise, command zone passive damage reduces by 1 at the of every round in which attacking combatants remain alive in it, so once that passive bonus has gone negative, it's considered to have been seized by the other side for the sake of follow-up skirmishes. Once a command zone flips, its passive damage also resets to its maximum amount. If one side ever owns all command zones and there are no active skirmishes going on, that's another way to win. GM's army and players' army take turns initiating skirmishes; once one skirmish is complete, the defending side has an opportunity to counterattack an enemy zone, or fortify the zone they're sitting on, slightly increasing its per-round passive damage, up to its maximum. Each command zone also places a restriction on how many budget points each side can invest in a skirmish, with advantageous terrains or defensive structures favoring defending teams with a higher maximum budget expenditure or passive damage. For GMs, maps can also determine how many units they can deploy at a time, and how quickly they can reinforce them when a combatant falls. Lastly, a side defending its final command zone isn't booted out of its command zone if its passive damage goes negative, but if a skirmish ends in that zone with no conscious defending unit left standing and at least one conscious attacking unit in the field, the zone is lost and the battle is over.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If I was in charge, what I'd like to see from the rulebook line going forward would be something like 4 books a year:
1. One full book with two classes, like SoM or GnG.
2. One themed book like Book of the Dead, especially with themed monsters, spells, items, etc.
3. One $30-$35 APG every year, a hundred pages or something with nothing but expansion on existing content, like more class feats, subclasses, class archetypes, not just for CRB classes but for APG, SoM, GnG, etc classes. Even more feats for existing archetypes, or optional focus spells for bloodlines and other class options. Spell Trickster feats.
4. One $30-$35 item book, a hundred pages of crazy and useful items, new runes, totally new item types, expansion on the ideas they've introduced like Catalysts, item runes, weapon attachments, etc but they're barely more than super cool ideas with a couple item examples.


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The problem with going too heavy into the APG-like books is power creep. The more options you have clamped on to the base class chassis, the more picking and choosing and optimizing you can get. Paizo tried to control that in PF1, and has been keeping a significantly tighter leash in PF2. The items book, if you're talking high-crunch items, can have similar problems. I'm not saying that they should never print books like that... but I think that "one per year, like clockwork" is maybe pushing it. I remember the book-by-book power creep of 4th ed. From a 4th ed perspective, it was kind of fun, but that was a different game. That same sort of power creep would not serve PF2 well.


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I hope that them being cautious with power creep doesn't mean we won't get any more core support at all. They tend to balance new stuff by making it undertuned compared to core anyways.


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I understand being concerned about power creep… but it’s still a bummer to lack subclass options for certain classes. I’m not expecting the glut 1e had, but I look at some, especially with very tight theming for the options we do have - staring at Oracle Mysteries primarily, but also Champion Oaths - and I definitely want more.

I’ll never complain about Sorcerer Bloodlines, either:


mythic is what I want


It's kind of surprising that this far in we've only added one Barbarian Instinct, and that we didn't get any new Druid orders until Secrets of Magic (and we still don't have the Fungus one).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A lot of player facing material is getting added to the game through APs and adventures as well. We have gotten a lot of new spells, new items and even class feats in APs. It doesn't seem like that is going to soon change.

One the one hand, I always love picking up the new AP and thumbing through the adventurer's tool kit for player options, but the fact that several of those options have required immediate Errata that is almost impossible to find or get made since the AP probably isn't going into reprint anytime soon, it does get a little messy for things like sixth pillar archetypes, when they become accessible on Archives of Nethys.


Some days I feel like the only person who really doesn't rate skill feats as adding much to the game and therefore hopes Paizo doesn't spend much if any more pages on expanding them.

If my players would have been a bit more daring, I'd have yoinked them entirely from my games by now.

But on the other hand, a lot of people like them and want more, so it would be pretty selfish of me to rabble against their expansion.


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I am very pro skill feat and would love to see more, especially those that add entirely new actions/activities or expand what the broad skill categories contain in some way.


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Sporkedup wrote:

Some days I feel like the only person who really doesn't rate skill feats as adding much to the game and therefore hopes Paizo doesn't spend much if any more pages on expanding them.

If my players would have been a bit more daring, I'd have yoinked them entirely from my games by now.

But on the other hand, a lot of people like them and want more, so it would be pretty selfish of me to rabble against their expansion.

I love skill feats - when they're flavorful/impactful enough to feel it.

Stuff like Battle Prayer? Love it. A flavorful ability that can actually be good at proccing weaknesses.

Bon Mot, Sacred Defense, Juggle, Consult the Spirits, Disturbing Knowledge, Evangelize, etc.

Anything that adds *things* you can do that are thematic to your character's background. I'm not a huge fan of the small passive stuff, but I definitely want more like the ones listed.


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So, with the first week of January now behind us, it looks increasingly likely that either: there won't be an October/November release this year, or it won't have a playtest associated with it, as they seem to give themselves 10 months or so from playtest to print.

As assuming there won't be a release is just no fun at all, I choose to wonder if an update to Mythic or a GM focused book is in the works.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:

So, with the first week of January now behind us, it looks increasingly likely that either: there won't be an October/November release this year, or it won't have a playtest associated with it, as they seem to give themselves 10 months or so from playtest to print.

As assuming there won't be a release is just no fun at all, I choose to wonder if an update to Mythic or a GM focused book is in the works.

There’s a chance scheduling was disrupted some because of a pretty volatile few months there.

Liberty's Edge

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I just cannot see Mythic without an open playtest.


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I get the feeling Mythic rules would be *harder* to get right than classes, not easier. :b

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Mythic rules? Am I missing something here?


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I'd love more skill feats. Right now, I have hard time finding enough interesting feats to fill my single digits levels. There are too many niche skill feats currently, you can take them but chances are high you won't use them even once in most campaign.


I think some skills (especially Thievery, Stealth, Arcana, Religion imo) need more *interesting* skill feats, but I think in general the number we have is alright enough we don't need like a Mass Injection of skill feats to the game.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:

So, with the first week of January now behind us, it looks increasingly likely that either: there won't be an October/November release this year, or it won't have a playtest associated with it, as they seem to give themselves 10 months or so from playtest to print.

As assuming there won't be a release is just no fun at all, I choose to wonder if an update to Mythic or a GM focused book is in the works.

oh please let a mythic book be in the works it & the cr26+ monsters like the horsemen are all I need for pf2e after book of the dead releases!!!


I feel confident it’s not a primal/nature book, whatever it is.


keftiu wrote:
I feel confident it’s not a primal/nature book, whatever it is.

why?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So far they've only playtested classes, so a classless book not having any associated announcement would make a lot of sense.

That said, hoping it's more a scheduling thing there are some class concepts I still really think PF2 desperately needs.


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Squiggit wrote:

So far they've only playtested classes, so a classless book not having any associated announcement would make a lot of sense.

That said, hoping it's more a scheduling thing there are some class concepts I still really think PF2 desperately needs.

Happy to keep beating on that Inquisitor drum.

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