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For a feat you get on the average an additional 3.5 points of damage with a rare weapon that does not scale up as you level up. Compare that to Power attack where you gain +3 damage for every 4 BAB when using a two handed weapon. Power Attack does give you a penalty to hit, but can be used with any melee weapon including unarmed strikes and improvised weapons. The chance of finding a magical butchering axe is pretty slim so if you are going to be using it you will probably have to have one specifically enchanted.
The fact that it cost a feat to be able to use effectively makes it under powered if anything. A feat is a valuable asset that can in the right circumstances give your character a big advantage. Humans are considered one of the most powerful races mainly because of the extra feat at 1st level.
At high level most of the damage comes from static bonuses not the weapon damage. As you said the 19 STR requirement is mostly at lower levels, so by the time that is no longer an issue the extra damage is not as important. A full Orc may be able to take advantage of it at first level, but most other characters are going to get hit with the -2 penalty to hit. Taking a -2 on all mental stats is a high price to pay for an extra 1d6 of damage.
Compared to an elven curve blade the butchering axe is way less effective. A two handed finesse weapon that has a crit range of 18-20 and does 1d10 points of damage, and you get a +2 CMD vs sunder is a lot better than doing 3d6 points of damage with a 19 STR requirement.
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Overpowered compared to what?
In my experience based on DPR comparison between sample character builds, while the butchering axe is good on classes with bonus feats (e.g. Avenger Vigilante), the power of Improved Critical makes a nodachi stronger for when the amount of feats you want to invest into damage is limited, e.g. Barbarian.
So it's not stronger than other options for classes without bonus feats (at least not at mid-levels, and you use it pre-4th level without over-investing into strength). It's bad for Monk, Brawler, dex-based classes (Rogue, Swashbuckler), or builds that need one-handed weapons (e.g. Magus). There is no deity that has it as a favored weapon, making it weaker for Warpriest, Inquisitor, and Cleric. You can't get pounce with it via feat (unlike for unarmed strikes and natural weapons).
So, with all the above, who is it good for? Avenger Vigilante, Fighter, Ranger, Slayer, non-mounted Cavalier/Samurai? Those aren't really the cream of the crop of melee builds. Do people even play Ranger and Slayer as ordinary two-handed melee builds?
It's good on Avenger and Viking Fighter, but the lack of magical stuff hampers both.
It is the vitalstrike featchain and enlargement that makes Butchering axe strong.
It's the weakness of the Vital Strike chain that stops it from being too strong.
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There are a few class archetypes, and an elf alternative racial trait, that let you select a single exotic weapon to be proficient with. Which means if you are planning a melee strength character you might as well take the butchering axe in a lot of builds.
It is the vitalstrike featchain and enlargement that makes Butchering axe strong.
This is the build that really wants the butchering axe. For an enlarged Titan Fighter vital striking with an impact weapon, the butchering axe is way better than alternatives.
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Going from Martial to Exotic usually results in the new weapon increasing its critical range (or multiplier) by 1, or that its dmg dice improves by one step on the Damage Dice Progression Chart. The Butchering Axe does actually break these guidelines when it improves by two steps on the progression chart compared to the Greatsword, Earthbreaker, and Greataxe. (1d12/2d6 -> 2d8 -> 3d6)
So yes, it is technically "overpowered". To be in line with similar content it should either have been a 2d8 /x3 weapon or 3d6 /x2 instead of being 3d6 /x3.
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There are a few class archetypes, and an elf alternative racial trait, that let you select a single exotic weapon to be proficient with. Which means if you are planning a melee strength character you might as well take the butchering axe in a lot of builds.
Those archetypes tend to have some downside, and the half-elf racial trait competes with one that grants +2 to will saves (something of more use to many a martial than more damage).
I have 1 shot a number of bosses without needing to crit at lower levels
I don't see how, unless you meant with a single full attack. The number doesn't work out for a single attack, with or without Vital Strike.
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Going from Martial to Exotic usually results in the new weapon increasing its critical range (or multiplier) by 1, or that its dmg dice improves by one step on the Damage Dice Progression Chart. The Butchering Axe does actually break these guidelines when it improves by two steps on the progression chart compared to the Greatsword, Earthbreaker, and Greataxe. (1d12/2d6 -> 2d8 -> 3d6)
So yes, it is technically "overpowered". To be in line with similar content it should either have been a 2d8 /x3 weapon or 3d6 /x2 instead of being 3d6 /x3.
Not really… most exotic weapons only increase by one step because the original damage die size is 1d6 or less. Most examples of exotic versions of weapons that use larger damage dice either increase crit range or multiplier or add additional functionality. The butchering axe like all other exotic weapons increases its damage dive by one SIZE not one STEP. Because the greataxe (and the non-exotic base for the butchering axe) deals 2d6 damage one damage size increase is two steps.
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So yes, it is technically "overpowered". To be in line with similar content it should either have been a 2d8 /x3 weapon or 3d6 /x2 instead of being 3d6 /x3.
That is my view as well. It is overpowered in the sense that it is outside the boundaries of comparable items. That doesn't mean that it's overpowered in the sense that it would break your game.
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Not really… most exotic weapons only increase by one step because the original damage die size is 1d6 or less. Most examples of exotic versions of weapons that use larger damage dice either increase crit range or multiplier or add additional functionality. The butchering axe like all other exotic weapons increases its damage dive by one SIZE not one STEP. Because the greataxe (and the non-exotic base for the butchering axe) deals 2d6 damage one damage size increase is two steps.
There's actually only two other weapons that do so, and no other two-handed weapons afaik. It is definitely not the norm. Looking at the exotic reach two-handers (without a gimmick) we see the Fauchard, Dwarven Giant-sticker, Dwarven Longaxe, and Dwarven Longhammer.
There doesn't exist a 18-20 martial reach weapon so we can't compare the Fauchard with another weapon's dmg dice. But the dwarven weapons have comparable martial weapons.
50 gp 1d10 1d12 x3 — 14 lbs. S reach
Glaive (martial)
8 gp 1d8 1d10 x3 — 10 lbs. S reach
1d10 -> 1d12
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Giant-sticker
25 gp 1d8 2d6 x3 — 12 lbs. P or S brace, reach
Horsechopper (martial)
10 gp 1d8 1d10 x3 — 12 lbs. P or S reach, trip
1d10 -> 2d6
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Longhammer
70 gp 1d10 2d6 x3 — 20 lbs. B reach
Bec de corbin (martial)
15 gp 1d8 1d10 x3 — 12 lbs. B or P brace, reach, see text
1d10 -> 2d6
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And all five x4 martial two-handers either deal d8 or 2d4 dmg. The only x4 exotic two-hander with a higher dmg dice than that is the Tetsubo with 1d10.
One step, not one size.
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No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.
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No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.I disagree with this. Especially when you have teammates. One solid hit from a high damage martial can end an enemy caster. Especially in APs.
Yes, optimized martials can have their heyday in AP's [as-written].
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Weapons comparisonsI think your argument may suffer because martial weapons are weird.
Is there ever a reason to take a Bec de Corbin over a Lucerne Hammer?
Certainly. The Lucerne Hammer has a better dmg dice (1d12 vs 1d10) in return for a worse crit profile (x2 vs x3). Personally I value the better crit more than +1 avg dmg so I would choose the Bec de Corbin.
There's also some better comparisons to be made for one-handers. The following weapons have the exact same properties (except weight) and their exotic counterparts have increased their dmg dice by one step and not one size.
Longsword (1d8) -> Bastard Sword (1d10)
Battleaxe (1d8) -> Dwarven Waraxe (1d10)
Terbutje (1d8) -> Great Terbutje (1d10)
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No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.I disagree with this. Especially when you have teammates. One solid hit from a high damage martial can end an enemy caster. Especially in APs.
When your martials are teleporting around the map killing multiple opponents before they get the chance to react, the casters become redundant.
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No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.
I don't think you know what the word "overpowered" means. Power level is relative per definition, which not only means that martials can be overpowered compared to other martials, but also that martials can be overpowered compared to the expected power level for martials in a campaign.
The question as ask in the thread title cannot possibly have a yes-or-no-answer. It can only have an answer for comparison with something, or under specific circumstances. Thus the nature of the concept of power level.
Is there ever a reason to take a Bec de Corbin over a Lucerne Hammer?
At above 15 critable bonus damage, Bec de Corbin has a higher average damage.
The following weapons have the exact same properties (except weight) and their exotic counterparts have increased their dmg dice by one step and not one size.
Longsword (1d8) -> Bastard Sword (1d10)
Battleaxe (1d8) -> Dwarven Waraxe (1d10)
Terbutje (1d8) -> Great Terbutje (1d10)
All three of those have the "can be used two-handed as a martial weapon" special feature - which seems to cost a step in damage dice.
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Didn't really answer the question in my first post, so. . . The question is always "what's right for my particular group?" But in general, the way I examine an option when determining if it is appropriate to allow in a campaign is:
If there is an existing effective* build for which the new option is a "no-brainer" pick then it is probably too powerful.
In the case of the Butchering Axe that existing build is a Vital Striker, or any build stacking multiple size increases/effective size increases. The increased damage dice of the Butchering Axe is simply better than any other option. So I do believe it is too powerful.
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Didn't really answer the question in my first post, so. . . The question is always "what's right for my particular group?" But in general, the way I examine an option when determining if it is appropriate to allow in a campaign is:
If there is an existing effective* build for which the new option is a "no-brainer" pick then it is probably too powerful.
In the case of the Butchering Axe that existing build is a Vital Striker, or any build stacking multiple size increases/effective size increases. The increased damage dice of the Butchering Axe is simply better than any other option. So I do believe it is too powerful.
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The Butchering Axe's effectiveness does not make it an overshadowing "no-brainer" choice... not even for a Vital Strike build. I am not the only one that heavily considers the Greatsword to be the "no-brainer" choice simply because Gorum's Swordmanship opens up Vital Strike on a charge, which can be combined with Rhino Charge to break action economy. There are other considerations, even in the type of niche builds where a Butchering Axe could be effective.
Regardless of whether or not the Butchering Axe follows some unspoken rules for building exotic weapons... I don't see it pop up enough in actual play or posted builds to ever call it overpowered. It has very little support outside of your normal martial shenanigans... like increasing one's size. In fact, I often equip NPC enemies with Butchering Axes that have the necessary Ioun Stone socketed into the weapon itself... there's the weapon and proficiency with it, right there. I have never had a player to suddenly start using Butchering Axes.
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Not really… most exotic weapons only increase by one step because the original damage die size is 1d6 or less. Most examples of exotic versions of weapons that use larger damage dice either increase crit range or multiplier or add additional functionality. The butchering axe like all other exotic weapons increases its damage dive by one SIZE not one STEP. Because the greataxe (and the non-exotic base for the butchering axe) deals 2d6 damage one damage size increase is two steps.There's actually only two other weapons that do so, and no other two-handed weapons afaik. It is definitely not the norm. Looking at the exotic reach two-handers (without a gimmick) we see the Fauchard, Dwarven Giant-sticker, Dwarven Longaxe, and Dwarven Longhammer.
There doesn't exist a 18-20 martial reach weapon so we can't compare the Fauchard with another weapon's dmg dice. But the dwarven weapons have comparable martial weapons.
** spoiler omitted **
And all five x4 martial two-handers either deal d8 or 2d4 dmg. The only x4 exotic two-hander with a higher dmg dice than that is the Tetsubo with 1d10.
One step, not one size.
When you compare the wrong weapons sure... it comes out looking like it's just one step on the chart instead of one size step on the chart. But lets try looking at the proper weapon comparisons shall we? And do note, I had stated that they EITHER increase in damage size OR increase in crit range OR multiplier ORadd additional functions... So read my previous post in full context. If the damage size increases it follows the same rules for increasing the size of the weapon. Not all exotic weapons have increased damage over their non-exotic counterparts. Lets take a look at the same exotic weapons you compared and their proper non-exotic counterparts shall we?
50 gp 1d10 1d12 x3 — 14 lbs. S reach
Glaive (martial)
8 gp 1d8 1d10 x3 — 10 lbs. S reach
1d10 -> 1d12
Greataxe
20 gp 1d10 1d12 x3 — 12 lbs. S —
Exotic difference: Dwarven Longaxe is a Greataxe with Reach.
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Giant-sticker
25 gp 1d8 2d6 x3 — 12 lbs. P or S brace, reach
Horsechopper (martial)
10 gp 1d8 1d10 x3 — 12 lbs. P or S reach, trip
1d10 -> 2d6
This one lacks a non-exotic martial counterpart. It also creates a bit of a conundrum when it comes to damage size changes as it is the ONLY example of a 2d6 (or 1d12) weapon that properly decreases to 1d8 while all others become 1d10. But the weapon damage size chart itself actually has a small problem in this same range as by the rules of size change on that chart it is actually impossible to increase to 2d6 or 1d12. That said... we can infer from this though that a non-exotic counterpart to the Giant Sticker would be a 2d6 or 1d12 weapon and that the exotic change would be either increased crit multiplier or the addition of reach. And looking at all non-exotic 2d6/1d12 weapons it shares the same general stat block (aside from the oddity of actually decreasing to 1d8 instead of 1d10 like all of the others)
Also, by the weapons description, it is actually an exoitic Longspear... which means we're looking at an increase of two weapon categories from Simple to Exotic...
Longspear
5 gp 1d6 1d8 x3 — 9 lbs. P brace, reach
1d8 P -> 2d6 P or S
Exotic Change: One damage size increase and addition of a second damage type. Gains Two changes as increasing from Simple weapon to Exotic.
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Longhammer
70 gp 1d10 2d6 x3 — 20 lbs. B reach
Bec de corbin (martial)
15 gp 1d8 1d10 x3 — 12 lbs. B or P brace, reach, see text
1d10 -> 2d6
Lucerne hammer
15 gp 1d10 1d12 x2 — 12 lbs. B or P brace, reach, see text
Exotic Difference: Dwarven Longhamer is a Lucern Hammer with increased Crit Multiplier
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Didn't really answer the question in my first post, so. . . The question is always "what's right for my particular group?" But in general, the way I examine an option when determining if it is appropriate to allow in a campaign is:
If there is an existing effective* build for which the new option is a "no-brainer" pick then it is probably too powerful.
In the case of the Butchering Axe that existing build is a Vital Striker, or any build stacking multiple size increases/effective size increases. The increased damage dice of the Butchering Axe is simply better than any other option. So I do believe it is too powerful.
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I would argue sinking atleast 3 feats and potentially a 4th for Exotic Weapon Proficiency, dealing excellent damage as a standard action is not only reasonable, but should be considered what Martial Feats/options should be if they are not simply designed from the ground up to be scaling ala Power Attack.
I am firmly in the "This is not even remotely overpowered" camp.
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When you compare the wrong weapons sure...
They had the most similar profiles to the very small sample of non-gimmicky exotic two-handers we have available. That's why I choose them. We have both said that going from martial to exotic can improve different properties of the weapon. That you instead choose to compare other properties than dmg dice does not invalidate my dmg dice comparison.
Frankly, you weaken your own position by showing that one step of dmg dice is apparently equal in value to improving Crit Multiplier or granting it Reach.
But we've run out of exotic weapons to compare. And we can't decide on what martial weapons to compare with. I don't think we'll get much further.
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There is a big difference between being overpowered and being powerful. Something is overpowered when it unbalances the game and creates problems for the GM. To me something is overpowered when no other build can equal or exceed the damage of the build. While a vital striking abyssal bloodrager can get deal a lot of damage they are not doing more damage than anything else. A 11th level abyssal bloodrager with a 20 STR and improved vital strike will get a single attack doing 12d6 +22 with an ordinary butchering axe with power attack. That works out to be about 63 points of damage.
An 11th level cavalier can do 3d8 +81 points of damage with a lance charge. The cavalier has the same base STR as the bloodrager before bloodrage is factored in. He also has mounted combat, power attack and spirited is using challenge. If he has not issued a challenge his damage drops to 3d8 +48 which works out to 62 points of damage.
A 11th level half orc ranger with a 14 STR and 18 DEX using a Orc Hornbow will be doing 3d6 +15 per shot with gravity bow, and be getting 4 shots (with the first hitting twice due to Many Shot) vs his strongest favored enemy. The ranger has a better chance to hit will all but the very last shot than the bloodrager does with vital strike. So assuming that the first 3 shots hit that is going to be 102 points of damage. Without gravity bow that drops down to 88 points of damage. Leaving out the favored enemy brings the damage down to 2d6+9 for an average of 64 points of damage. Clusted Shot will reduce the impact that DR will have on the multiple shots so that is not a factor.
Both the cavalier and the ranger are able to do a lot more damage than the bloodrager when utilizing their full potential, and can match him within a point or two without expending any resources. The ranger also has the advantage that he can also attack multiple lesser targets without reducing his damage. If the cavalier picks up spirtited charge he can also attack another target in the same round.
The last thing people are ignoring is the law of averages. When people see large number of dice they immediately think of the damage as being the maximum that can be rolled. The truth is that when rolling large numbers of dice you almost never roll above the average. The more dice you roll the more likely you are to roll average.
So the butchering axe while powerful it is not so not overpowered.
Generally speaking it is not OP.
But from BAB 1 to BAB 3, as long as you were already getting a +5 to Strenght (something I usually do) and if you already had a combat feat waiting for its purpose (like playing a fighter), then it is definitely worth it.
If you are into giant weapons it is the best, one step ahead from the next best options (medium sized Bastard sword, 2d8) and two steps ahead from most (greatsword, 2d6, a medium sized dagger, 2d6, etc.).
If we are talking about weapons in general then I would put it at the same place as the best of them, not above (it´s crit is second level and you need a feat).
Tax-wise however, and if you are using it for damage, it is better than power attack until BAB 12. I usually consider Power attack as the basic standard of a good combat feat.
+1 to hit is more or less equal than +2 to damage. This thinking that you are hitting half of the time (rolling an average 10.5 in your d20). If you are hitting nothing then the +1 to hit is stronger, if you are hitting with a 2 in your d20, the damage is more important.
That means power attack two-handling a weapon gives you a net profit of +1 to damage +1 per 4 BAB until you are BAB 20 and get +6 to damage,but with all seriousness, the further you advance the easier it gets to hit with your first attack so it would be a bit more in late game.
In conparison, the one feat invested in getting your scary axe nets you an astounding +3.5 of average damage at level 1 with no to hit penalty, making it absolutely better than power attack from BAB 1 to 3, better from levels 4 to 7 and probably still more worth it but it depends of your campaign and character from 8 to 11. Anyway is better than greater weapon specialization.
Pumping your size to destroy everything:
- Titan fighter (horrible archetype)
- Bigger race allowed (probably a medium one)
- Enlarge person permanent (yay, now you are Large)
- Buy a huge axe
- Get impact on your axe
- Your axe deals 8d6, an average of 28. Probably not worth the s$!~ty archetype.
- Get the full line of vital strike. Now it is 32d6 or 112 of average damage at level 16.
Does it fare well?
Full attacking is still better as long as you get 3 hits in. Let´s assume you are hasted thanks to your boots of speed at every turn by level 16. So hitting thrice should not be difficult.
Obviously that move action that vital strike saves you is a great asset against squishy enemies or enemies that move around or if you got the ability to drink potions as a move action as well, etc.
Still, if you are not taking that s$$&ty archetype you can still get to 6d6 which is pretty nice and that one feat would have net you 7 points of average damage in conparison to the same build with a gratsword.