Rogue Weapons list


Rules Discussion


Now that we have had so many books added since the Core books, is there a chance for an errata adding more weapons to the rogue list?

Right now they are excluded from so many of the new options that scream fitting for their class:

Sword Cane
Piercing Wind

Just to name two off the top of my head.

It feels unnecessarily limiting for a core class.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I dunno if we will get errata but the fact that no post CRB class has had a bespoke weapon list seems to indicate they recognize no one likes it. So there's hope!


More finesse ancestry weapons are probably the best source of new weapons for rogue. The new elven spear is pretty great


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Yeah, Rogue should have just been "All simple weapons and all finesse or agile martial weapons", which would automatically have added everything relevant.

Wizards of course, have the baggage of the class... but frankly could have just been "all simple" to make it easier.

Lantern Lodge

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Yeah, Rogue should have just been "All simple weapons and all finesse or agile martial weapons", which would automatically have added everything relevant.

Wizards of course, have the baggage of the class... but frankly could have just been "all simple" to make it easier.

Both of these are my house rule.

Which is my way of saying I agree with you!


I remember in 1e that later weapons for monks (who also had the funky list) would cite that monks were proficient in them. Well, a few of them did. I don't remember if rogues or bards ever got that love.

I do see how Monastic Weaponry is open-ended as far as weapons with the Monk property. Not sure how well that'd work, especially as Agile and Finesse seem to work fine for rogues and bards.

And yes, may as well let wizards have the full simple list.

Shadow Lodge

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Rogue damage generally seems to be balanced around a d4 or d6 weapon + d6 Sneak Attack keeping them at par with 1d12 'great weapon' users, so I presume their narrow list of weapon proficiencies was written with this in mind:

    Simple weapons probably aren't going to see finesse weapons with a d10 or d12 weapon die, so giving proficiency in all of them is fairly safe.
    Martial weapons are a bit more dangerous, but using ancestry feats to get d8 finesse weapons treated as simple is presumably seen as a reasonable trade-off.
    Advanced weapons plus a 'treat an advanced weapon as martial' ancestry feat is where things get kinda dangerous: Advanced 1d12 finesse weapons are presumably possible and would be really overpowered in the hands of a Thief (it's roughly equivalent to doubling your weapon dice).
Basically, they had to 'future-proof' the class by restricting weapon proficiencies.


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Rogue damage generally seems to be balanced around a d4 or d6 weapon + d6 Sneak Attack keeping them at par with 1d12 'great weapon' users, so I presume their narrow list of weapon proficiencies was written with this in mind:
    Simple weapons probably aren't going to see finesse weapons with a d10 or d12 weapon die, so giving proficiency in all of them is fairly safe.
    Martial weapons are a bit more dangerous, but using ancestry feats to get d8 finesse weapons treated as simple is presumably seen as a reasonable trade-off.
    Advanced weapons plus a 'treat an advanced weapon as martial' ancestry feat is where things get kinda dangerous: Advanced 1d12 finesse weapons are presumably possible and would be really overpowered in the hands of a Thief (it's roughly equivalent to doubling your weapon dice).
Basically, they had to 'future-proof' the class by restricting weapon proficiencies.

Assuming that this is the actual reasoning - this wouldn't be hard to codify.

Quote:

Trained in simple weapons.

Trained in unarmed attacks.
Trained in martial weapons with the agile or finesse trait that have a weapon damage die size of d6 or less.

Yeah, it is a bit strange and would be one of the only classes to have something like that. But what they have is already a bit strange and is one of the only classes to have a specified list of weapons to be proficient with.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't really see anything to suggest the rogue was supposed to be intentionally limited to d6 weapons only. Right from the CRB it wasn't particularly expensive for a rogue to access something like Tiger's Claws or the Elven Curve Blade.

As breithauptclan pointed out, that wouldn't be hard to codify explicitly if that was the intent. The Ruffian literally has that rule already (albeit d8 instead)... so it doesn't make sense to not just have the same rule in place for the base class if that was the design.

What the rule does do is just make it weirdly prohibitive or impossible to wield something like a main-gauche, nunchaku, kukri, or starknife. None of which are really worth writing home about.

I don't think there was any specific intent or grand design here in the same way there's no grand design behind making it weirdly difficult for a wizard to use a morning star either.

It feels more like someone just took the PF1 weapon list, cut the hand crossbow and ported it over without thinking about it much.


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I just want the hole for Ruffians to be able to use unarmed strikes to be closed. The Ruffian's additional ability to sneak attack and crit with non-agile or non-finesse weapons is limited to simple weapons, which explicitly excludes the usual unarmed attack.

Not only does this seem to be an oversight since it would seem like the Ruffian's would be the most likely to just slug someone, but it also stops it from working with Gorilla Style, which seems thematically perfect.


Enchanter Tim wrote:

I just want the hole for Ruffians to be able to use unarmed strikes to be closed. The Ruffian's additional ability to sneak attack and crit with non-agile or non-finesse weapons is limited to simple weapons, which explicitly excludes the usual unarmed attack.

Not only does this seem to be an oversight since it would seem like the Ruffian's would be the most likely to just slug someone, but it also stops it from working with Gorilla Style, which seems thematically perfect.

All Rogues can sneak attack with agile or finese unarmed strikes. Ruffian only adds simple weapons. I don't see that Gorilla Strikes count for either. What am I missing? Is there some feat to make unarmed strikes count as simple weapons?


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Gortle wrote:
All Rogues can sneak attack with agile or finese unarmed strikes.

I think that's the point being made: the strength rogue option can pick non-agile/finesse but doesn't get to do that with unarmed attacks which Enchanter Tim sees as thematically off.


graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
All Rogues can sneak attack with agile or finese unarmed strikes.
I think that's the point being made: the strength rogue option can pick non-agile/finesse but doesn't get to do that with unarmed attacks which Enchanter Tim sees as thematically off.

Read it carefully. Ruffian only adds weapons. It never removes anything from the base Rogue. A Ruffian Rogue clearly can still sneak attack with an Unarmed Strike.

What is doesn't do is enable the critical specialization effect, for any thing other than a simple weapon.

Weapon trick expands this at level 5 for all Rogues, but never for any Rogue to include Unarmed Attacks.

I don't see why this is an issue for the Ruffian. Its an issue for the Rogue, the Monk, and the Martial Artist. They all have to take a feat to get access to the critical specialization effects of unarmed strikes.

I feel like a quote.

Exact verbiage. Words are important, and how we use them is important

But I won't as I'm sure its going to bite me.

Shadow Lodge

Gortle wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
All Rogues can sneak attack with agile or finese unarmed strikes.
I think that's the point being made: the strength rogue option can pick non-agile/finesse but doesn't get to do that with unarmed attacks which Enchanter Tim sees as thematically off.

Read it carefully. Ruffian only adds weapons. It never removes anything from the base Rogue. A Ruffian Rogue clearly can still sneak attack with an Unarmed Strike.

What is doesn't do is enable the critical specialization effect, for any thing other than a simple weapon.

Weapon trick expands this at level 5 for all Rogues, but never for any Rogue to include Unarmed Attacks.

I don't see why this is an issue for the Ruffian. Its an issue for the Rogue, the Monk, and the Martial Artist. They all have to take a feat to get access to the critical specialization effects of unarmed strikes.

I feel like a quote.

Exact verbiage. Words are important, and how we use them is important

But I won't as I'm sure its going to bite me.

No, a rogue can sneak attack with 'an agile or finesse unarmed attack' only: Gorilla Stance strikes have neither of these traits, so you can't sneak attack with them...


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Though of note is that Ruffian is for simple weapons only while Gorilla Stance has the weapon budget of an advanced weapon so I'm not sure it's unintentional that Paizo might want to not open that route for ruffians.

Unarmed weapons in general are odd when it comes to damage and trait budget. Deadly Simplicity has to use very careful wording and only buff d4 attacks even if there are d6 unarmed attacks with simple weapon budget so that you don't accidentally buff the advanced monk stances or a quite powerful unarmed attack from heritages such as the tengu one.


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Gortle wrote:


No, a rogue can sneak attack with 'an agile or finesse unarmed attack' only: Gorilla Stance strikes have neither of these traits, so you can't sneak attack with them...

I never said they did


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Gortle wrote:
Ruffian only adds weapons.

I don't think anyone said or inferred it did, just that they thought it should do so. And to be clear, I have no dog in this fight but am just explaining what the argument was.

Gortle wrote:
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Gortle wrote:


No, a rogue can sneak attack with 'an agile or finesse unarmed attack' only: Gorilla Stance strikes have neither of these traits, so you can't sneak attack with them...
I never said they did

Yeah, but that what was what was complained about: that Ruffian Rogue DIDN'T make a change for unarmed attacks that it did for simple weapons, full stop.


graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Ruffian only adds weapons.

I don't think anyone said or inferred it did, just that they thought it should do so. And to be clear, I have no dog in this fight but am just explaining what the argument was.

There is no fight it is only statements. Why are you implying it is a fight?

graystone wrote:


Gortle wrote:
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
]No, a rogue can sneak attack with 'an agile or finesse unarmed attack' only: Gorilla Stance strikes have neither of these traits, so you can't sneak attack with them...
I never said they did
Yeah, but that what was what was complained about: that Ruffian Rogue DIDN'T make a change for unarmed attacks that it did for simple weapons, full stop.

If you feel the need to correct someone by saying "No", then please actually correct something they stated not something they thought you stated.

The whole exchange was simply because Enchanter Tim's statement, I read something extra into it, and now other people are going on to read something else extra into what I said. Just back up a little and move on.


The rule is clear if a bit convoluted if you don't read it closely. Any confusion probably comes mainly from unarmed attacks not being simple weapons, rather than anything to do with the rogue. Again, clear, but not always intuitive in my opinion.

Yes, my opinion is that it would be very thematic for a Ruffian to get the same ability to sneak attack with non-agile/finesse unarmed strikes as it gets with non-agile/finesse simple weapons. Just my two cents for this thread.

We're good, Gortle.


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Gortle wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Ruffian only adds weapons.

I don't think anyone said or inferred it did, just that they thought it should do so. And to be clear, I have no dog in this fight but am just explaining what the argument was.

There is no fight it is only statements. Why are you implying it is a fight?

graystone wasn't implying that this was a fight. "I don't have a dog in this fight" is a common American idiom used to indicate that someone doesn't have a personal investment in either side of a debate. It's a metaphor based on the horrific practice of forcing dogs to attack each other so people can bet on the outcome.


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Gisher wrote:
Gortle wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Ruffian only adds weapons.

I don't think anyone said or inferred it did, just that they thought it should do so. And to be clear, I have no dog in this fight but am just explaining what the argument was.

There is no fight it is only statements. Why are you implying it is a fight?
graystone wasn't implying that this was a fight. "I don't have a dog in this fight" is a common American idiom used to indicate that someone doesn't have a personal investment in either side of a debate. It's a metaphor based on the horrific practice of forcing dogs to attack each other so people can bet on the outcome.

Yep. No horse in the race, no dog in the fight/hunt, ect just means that you have no vested interest in the outcome.


Gortle wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
All Rogues can sneak attack with agile or finese unarmed strikes.
I think that's the point being made: the strength rogue option can pick non-agile/finesse but doesn't get to do that with unarmed attacks which Enchanter Tim sees as thematically off.

Read it carefully. Ruffian only adds weapons. It never removes anything from the base Rogue. A Ruffian Rogue clearly can still sneak attack with an Unarmed Strike.

What is doesn't do is enable the critical specialization effect, for any thing other than a simple weapon.

Weapon trick expands this at level 5 for all Rogues, but never for any Rogue to include Unarmed Attacks.

I don't see why this is an issue for the Ruffian. Its an issue for the Rogue, the Monk, and the Martial Artist. They all have to take a feat to get access to the critical specialization effects of unarmed strikes.

I feel like a quote.

Exact verbiage. Words are important, and how we use them is important

But I won't as I'm sure its going to bite me.

It came back to bite you :) Specifically they were talking about non-finesse or agile unarmed attacks, from the direct thing you quoted.

Also, I should point out that weapon tricks does, in fact, apply to finesse/agile unarmed attacks. It was updated in the errata.

Weapon tricks:

You have become thoroughly familiar with the tools of your
trade. You gain expert proficiency in simple weapons as
well as the rapier, sap, shortbow, shortsword, and unarmed
attacks. When you critically succeed at an attack roll against
a flat-footed creature while using an agile or finesse simple
weapon or unarmed attack, or when using any of the listed
weapons, you apply the critical specialization effect for that
weapon or unarmed attack.


Sinnyil wrote:
Gortle wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
All Rogues can sneak attack with agile or finese unarmed strikes.
I think that's the point being made: the strength rogue option can pick non-agile/finesse but doesn't get to do that with unarmed attacks which Enchanter Tim sees as thematically off.

Read it carefully. Ruffian only adds weapons. It never removes anything from the base Rogue. A Ruffian Rogue clearly can still sneak attack with an Unarmed Strike.

What is doesn't do is enable the critical specialization effect, for any thing other than a simple weapon.

Weapon trick expands this at level 5 for all Rogues, but never for any Rogue to include Unarmed Attacks.

I don't see why this is an issue for the Ruffian. Its an issue for the Rogue, the Monk, and the Martial Artist. They all have to take a feat to get access to the critical specialization effects of unarmed strikes.

I feel like a quote.

Exact verbiage. Words are important, and how we use them is important

But I won't as I'm sure its going to bite me.

It came back to bite you :) Specifically they were talking about non-finesse or agile unarmed attacks, from the direct thing you quoted.

Also, I should point out that weapon tricks does, in fact, apply to finesse/agile unarmed attacks. It was updated in the errata.

Weapon tricks:

You have become thoroughly familiar with the tools of your
trade. You gain expert proficiency in simple weapons as
well as the rapier, sap, shortbow, shortsword, and unarmed
attacks. When you critically succeed at an attack roll against
a flat-footed creature while using an agile or finesse simple
weapon or unarmed attack, or when using any of the listed
weapons, you apply the critical specialization effect for that
weapon or unarmed attack.

Actually you are right that there is a problem here. But the problem is it isn't updated in the errata. It is another one of these stealth updates that just appears in the second printing.

That is an error in AON, but it is hard to be sure what it is as it is different again. So the quote is good, but which set of rules should you apply? I guess the 2nd printing.

CRB 1st edition wrote:

Weapon Tricks 5th

You have become thoroughly familiar with the tools of your trade. You gain expert proficiency in simple weapons, as well as the rapier, sap, shortbow, and shortsword. When you critically succeed at an attack roll against a flat-footed creature while using an agile or finesse simple weapon or any of the listed weapons, you apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you’re wielding.
CRB 2nd Printing wrote:

Weapon Tricks 5th

You have become thoroughly familiar with the tools of your trade. You gain expert proficiency in simple weapons as well as the rapier, sap, shortbow, shortsword, and unarmed attacks. When you critically succeed at an attack roll against a flat-footed creature while using an agile or finesse simple weapon or unarmed attack, or when using any of the listed weapons, you apply the critical specialization effect for that weapon or unarmed attack.
AON wrote:

Weapon Tricks

Level 5
You have become thoroughly familiar with the tools of your trade. You gain expert proficiency in simple weapons and unarmed attacks, as well as the rapier, sap, shortbow, and shortsword. When you critically succeed at an attack roll against a flat-footed creature while using an agile or finesse simple weapon or any of the listed weapons, you apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you’re wielding.
The official FAQ https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq wrote:

crickets

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