On the state of forum moderation


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Storm Dragon wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Storm,

The Confederate Flag?

Or the The Confederate Flag?

The one that is referred to in 99% of circumstances. While an interesting bit of history I actually didn't know about, it's not particularly relevant to my point.

There's a particular flag that is used, referred to, and understood to be "the Confederate Flag" even if it is not technically accurate.

Consider it a form of linguistic drift.

I do like that guy's video, particularly the part about halfway through. That people are "searching for an identity" and ignorantly latch onto something prominent, if not correct. It fits my point pretty nicely.

Ignorantly, or deliberately in some cases, and thanks for clarifying that your discussion was including the Virginia Battle Flag (the Stars and Bars) vs. the actual Confederate Flag.

Can't claim all the credit, someone pointed me to that fellow a few months ago.

Dark Archive

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:


but I think as a general concept it's very useful to understand. Being criticized for bad behavior is not an attack on you. Taking it as an attack is just a self-defense mechanism for you to avoid having to listen and learn and be humble. I urge those who default to it to recognize where it comes from and try to grow away from it.

Not keeping up with the full context of your post just this statement in it, and has no reflection on you just this statement got me thinking in general.

After reading the helicopter story. I started thinking differently about how words hurt people and when, at least for me words online can be way more hurtful, harmful words online are like an evil spirit haunting you, you can't see the source of it face to face to deal with it directly, and it's there for everyone else to see too, unless it removed it's there to haunt you every time you come back to it.

I think it's completely right in saying Being criticized for bad behavior is not an attack on someone. Criticism shouldn't be aimed at the person but what they said or the actions they took, otherwise it can sound like an attack. There's a huge difference between telling someone they are bad vs telling them their actions are bad.

Criticism can take time to sink in too. Someone here asked me if I would be offended if I was called an "it" unfortunately "it" was a name of a character I had, and trying to explain that I'm sure I sound insensitive at the time. But it got me thinking about what would offend me, thinking about that I realized the big reason I may seem insensitive about misgendering is that I was often misgendered growing up as a skinny goth boy with long hair, it was always accidentals I normally just made a joke of it to the person often making them feel embarrassed or uncomfortable, and I walked away unharmed, so having had those experiences it took more time to see how it's harmful to someone else. Then I read the helicopter story and more pieces fall into place. At least for me the things that have hurt the most have mostly happened online or happened face to face but things online remind me of it, even haunt me.

Criticism is a good thing when done right, but even then may time some time to sink in.
Criticism, when not done well, can make the other person defensive or more aggressive fighting back and never getting the point of the criticism at all.

Dark Archive

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I'm starting to be reminded of that youtube video someone linked earlier.

Like, I think you are partially right in that modern political trolls don't really do it for attention per say, but it still might be best to not engage with them because what they actually want to do is to attract an audience of bypasses and 1) make it seem like they are winning the argument to the audience 2) try to make you seem unreasonable to the audience.

Its why I'm super skeptical of people who refuse to address what you actually said to them and either nitpick one topic in your argument to nitpick or completely deflect it either way and continue making accusations

(that said, I don't think letting them go unchallenged is good either, but I don't really know what is optimal way to deal with them anyway besides that trying to debate them earnestly doesn't really work)


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Sometimes you're not trying to convince the troll, and you're not really even posting for the troll to see it; sometimes you're posting so anybody else watching sees it, to show that what's been posted isn't acceptable, and to show support for the (other) targets of the trolling.

You'll almost never convince the troll to change their mind, but sometimes you'll convince a lurker to change theirs.

Silver Crusade

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People that think you're unreasonable for defending yourself from bigotry were never on your side to begin with. They were wearing the cloak of allyship while it was convenient for them and tossed it aside as soon as it became challenging.


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Cori Marie wrote:
People that think you're unreasonable for defending yourself from bigotry were never on your side to begin with. They were wearing the cloak of allyship while it was convenient for them and tossed it aside as soon as it became challenging.

"Sorry, you were rude, so I am no longer in favor of gay rights."


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Grankless wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
People that think you're unreasonable for defending yourself from bigotry were never on your side to begin with. They were wearing the cloak of allyship while it was convenient for them and tossed it aside as soon as it became challenging.
"Sorry, you were rude, so I am no longer in favor of gay rights."

"Someone called me a racist, so I became a Nazi." (Note: No one actually called him a racist.)


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Some thoughts that may not be popular:

I am thinking through a lot of things, and I am troubled by the concept of calling other forumites bigots. I can see calling out their actions or posts as bigoted, but... There has to be a better way. I can understand your stance of not wanting to let a bigoted post go unchallenged, though my personal mode is to flag and move on. I realize though that others feel differently, especially with so much hatred being posted. And hey, you're correct that I may be coming from a privileged enough background where I can see something nasty and just flag it and move on. I'll try to be better about being the advocate I want to be.

But in my mind, shouting back at someone and telling them they are a bigot just makes them shout back and then it's another flame war that makes everyone feel crappy and makes a lot of work for the mods.

So here is what I would suggest, and will try to get better at implementing. "Hey, I'm flagging this post. Paizo forums are for everyone, and this one makes some of our community feel unsafe." And then I would link to Heather's post, and stop.

Once this is posted, the conversation moves on and the troll is deprived of your outrage and passion. Nothing's feeding it, so less work for the mods.

I'm gonna say this and I hope people understand my words:

Not calling a thing what it is? that is allowing room for bigotry and fascism to grow. simple as that.

so any advocation, at all, of not calling bigots, bigots, is at best, being a racist collaborator. at worst, you're actively fueling the bigotry by allowing it to pass without harsh scrutiny.

So when I see this post, fellow freelancer or not? I see someone advocating for "softened language" and "No flame wars" or whatever? because said people aren't being banned immediately for their bigotted horse crap? I see someone capitulating to fascism and bigotry. that's it that's all.

this quote CONTINUES to be true.

"....I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great
stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate
who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace
which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods
of direct action'..."

Contributor

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Some thoughts that may not be popular:

I am thinking through a lot of things, and I am troubled by the concept of calling other forumites bigots. I can see calling out their actions or posts as bigoted, but... There has to be a better way. I can understand your stance of not wanting to let a bigoted post go unchallenged, though my personal mode is to flag and move on. I realize though that others feel differently, especially with so much hatred being posted. And hey, you're correct that I may be coming from a privileged enough background where I can see something nasty and just flag it and move on. I'll try to be better about being the advocate I want to be.

But in my mind, shouting back at someone and telling them they are a bigot just makes them shout back and then it's another flame war that makes everyone feel crappy and makes a lot of work for the mods.

So here is what I would suggest, and will try to get better at implementing. "Hey, I'm flagging this post. Paizo forums are for everyone, and this one makes some of our community feel unsafe." And then I would link to Heather's post, and stop.

Once this is posted, the conversation moves on and the troll is deprived of your outrage and passion. Nothing's feeding it, so less work for the mods.

I understand how you reached this conclusion. As someone who once held it myself, I can tell you it is the wrong one. Challenging bigoted and ugly assertations is the only way to stop them. Anything less is silent complicity. We need to be clear that such things are absolutely not acceptable. The reticence to confront prejudice is what has allowed it flourish in recent years, on forums and in the world at large.

When coming from a point of privilege and being taught that being nice is synonymous with being understanding, it can be difficult to realize this. I did not understand it personally until fairly recently in my life, because someone took the time to lay it out the way I am here. Which is why I wanted to take the time to try and do the same. I encourage you to do some further thinking. To quote Into the Woods: "Nice is different than good"

Contributor

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CorvusMask wrote:

I'm starting to be reminded of that youtube video someone linked earlier.

Like, I think you are partially right in that modern political trolls don't really do it for attention per say, but it still might be best to not engage with them because what they actually want to do is to attract an audience of bypasses and 1) make it seem like they are winning the argument to the audience 2) try to make you seem unreasonable to the audience.

Its why I'm super skeptical of people who refuse to address what you actually said to them and either nitpick one topic in your argument to nitpick or completely deflect it either way and continue making accusations

(that said, I don't think letting them go unchallenged is good either, but I don't really know what is optimal way to deal with them anyway besides that trying to debate them earnestly doesn't really work)

Generally speaking? You don't debate them on their terms. You don't let them dictate the conversation. You say, "I can see that you are arguing in bad faith. You are a bigot and I am not going to engage with your sealioning/gish galloping/strawmanning. The humanity of others is not a debate."

Usually with less nice words, but this forum has policies against that.

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I think there's a pretty popular song out there about what you should tell nazi punks to do?


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And another, similar rhyming one about what to do with such people, but that one I definitely can't repeat here.


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Cori Marie wrote:
People that think you're unreasonable for defending yourself from bigotry were never on your side to begin with. They were wearing the cloak of allyship while it was convenient for them and tossed it aside as soon as it became challenging.

I didn’t see the argument as “don’t defend yourself”. I saw it as “please use these other tools to defend yourself with.”

But as someone who has described themselves as an ally elsewhere, I don’t my words to be construed as a lack of support. So I’ll be politely exiting this discussion here.


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About 2 years ago I was given a suspension, partly for talking badly about Paizo and my experience of being told one thing with no follow through, I could not post on anything but could still access my pdf's. So CS, at least those at the time, knew about this.

Wayfinders Contributor

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Obviously I have a lot to learn yet, and maybe my glasses have been too rosy. I try to look at everyone as redeemable. But I also did not mean to cause pain. I apologized to KC earlier but it wasn't enough. Let me apologize again now, to everyone. I do not want bigotry to grow. I wanted us to flag and report the bad actors so that the mods could ban them all, not to paint their actions as acceptable. I was trying to come up with another way to confront the bigotry with different words. But if instead my words made you feel unsafe, I messed up. Pain is a thousand times worse when it comes from a friend, one who was supposed to understand what you are going through. I did not mean to make anyone feel unsafe or unsupported. Quite the opposite, really. I fell through on that, plain and simple.

I am trying to listen and be a better ally. Apparently, I need to listen some more and like Paizo, attempt to do better.

Yours,

Hmm


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Davic The Grey wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Some thoughts that may not be popular:

I am thinking through a lot of things, and I am troubled by the concept of calling other forumites bigots. I can see calling out their actions or posts as bigoted, but... There has to be a better way. I can understand your stance of not wanting to let a bigoted post go unchallenged, though my personal mode is to flag and move on. I realize though that others feel differently, especially with so much hatred being posted. And hey, you're correct that I may be coming from a privileged enough background where I can see something nasty and just flag it and move on. I'll try to be better about being the advocate I want to be.

But in my mind, shouting back at someone and telling them they are a bigot just makes them shout back and then it's another flame war that makes everyone feel crappy and makes a lot of work for the mods.

So here is what I would suggest, and will try to get better at implementing. "Hey, I'm flagging this post. Paizo forums are for everyone, and this one makes some of our community feel unsafe." And then I would link to Heather's post, and stop.

Once this is posted, the conversation moves on and the troll is deprived of your outrage and passion. Nothing's feeding it, so less work for the mods.

I understand how you reached this conclusion. As someone who once held it myself, I can tell you it is the wrong one. Challenging bigoted and ugly assertations is the only way to stop them. Anything less is silent complicity. We need to be clear that such things are absolutely not acceptable. The reticence to confront prejudice is what has allowed it flourish in recent years, on forums and in the world at large.

When coming from a point of privilege and being taught that being nice is synonymous with being understanding, it can be difficult to realize this. I did not understand it personally until fairly recently in my life, because someone took the time to lay it out the way I am here. Which is...

They're not all outright fascist trolls though. Some are just clueless moderates not understanding. Telling the difference can be tricky, especially when you're stressed already.

I do think HMM's suggestion is little better than just being nice though. I like the idea of the troll post just being replied to with no argumentation, a half-dozen posts saying "Hey, I'm flagging this post. Paizo forums are for everyone, and this one makes some of our community feel unsafe."


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:


Reading this recent thread really hit home for me, because I've had that exact experience. I've been in this position:

Oooo right.... I completely forgot this forum often gets brigaded by Kiwifarm members and I believe not a single Paizo related wiki isn't vandalized by them.


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Maybe this is something that could be brought over to the UPW -- IF Paizo employees don't have to work in the incredibly expensive portions of Washington State 'in-person' that might potentially free up payroll for people willing to WFH to help moderate and/or work in Customer Service.

As an additional benefit, it'd open up opportunities for overseas or late-shift workers to cover a truly 24/7 working environment.


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MadScientistWorking wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:


Reading this recent thread really hit home for me, because I've had that exact experience. I've been in this position:

Oooo right.... I completely forgot this forum often gets brigaded by Kiwifarm members and I believe not a single Paizo related wiki isn't vandalized by them.

Amplify this for the people in the Back.

Just read the entire thread and she is spot on on every point.

Silver Crusade

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Vardoc Bloodstone wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
People that think you're unreasonable for defending yourself from bigotry were never on your side to begin with. They were wearing the cloak of allyship while it was convenient for them and tossed it aside as soon as it became challenging.

I didn’t see the argument as “don’t defend yourself”. I saw it as “please use these other tools to defend yourself with.”

But as someone who has described themselves as an ally elsewhere, I don’t my words to be construed as a lack of support. So I’ll be politely exiting this discussion here.

I have been nothing but respectful with my choice of words. Part of the issue is that some people see their posts being called bigoted as a direct attack on them as a person. When you've made the same post defending your humanity a several dozen times over the course of two months, your patience grows thin.


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Obviously I have a lot to learn yet, and maybe my glasses have been too rosy. I try to look at everyone as redeemable. But I also did not mean to cause pain. I apologized to KC earlier but it wasn't enough. Let me apologize again now, to everyone. I do not want bigotry to grow. I wanted us to flag and report the bad actors so that the mods could ban them all, not to paint their actions as acceptable. I was trying to come up with another way to confront the bigotry with different words. But if instead my words made you feel unsafe, I messed up. Pain is a thousand times worse when it comes from a friend, one who was supposed to understand what you are going through. I did not mean to make anyone feel unsafe or unsupported. Quite the opposite, really. I fell through on that, plain and simple.

I am trying to listen and be a better ally. Apparently, I need to listen some more and like Paizo, attempt to do better.

Yours,

Hmm

I commiserate with you, Hilary. Many years ago I thought in a way similar to you, but two things happened to help me move past some of the trappings of a privileged upbringing: one, I took it to heart when marginalized people told me that the most helpful thing I could do, at least at first, was shut my mouth and listen instead. Two, I watched a few well-meaning progressive friends go into an ironic crash and burn routine by openly arguing with marginalized people about what was best for them. Not saying you did this, but my friends certainly did and lacked the insight to realize what they were doing.

Fortunately for me, seeing others get corrected was enough for me to learn from. It doesn't come naturally for me, but I know that when I encounter instances of bigotry it is my responsibility to call it out in no uncertain terms and make it clear that it is unacceptable. This does not have to be done in a mean-spirited way or with cruelty. But if you sacrifice a clear and open condemnation of the bigotry and the bigoted speaker for the sake of being nice, a disservice is being done to those who are victimized by the bigotry.

Finding a voice that was clearly condemning without being cruel took some practice, but I eventually found it. The only regret I have is that I actually had the opportunity to practice it at all.

Wayfinders Contributor

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Cori Marie wrote:
People that think you're unreasonable for defending yourself from bigotry were never on your side to begin with. They were wearing the cloak of allyship while it was convenient for them and tossed it aside as soon as it became challenging.

In my toolbox, I wrote three things that I thought was important. One was to listen to people who are marginalized about their own lives, because they are the experts. Two is to not tolerate hate speech. Three is to learn from your mistakes, and realize that someone who is correcting you is doing so because you matter to them.

I am trying to live up to those ideals right now, and clearly making a mess of it all. I am going to take a break from this part of the forums for a while, and see if I can figure out how to be a better person when I come back.

Yours Sincerly,
Hmm

Liberty's Edge

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

There's also the realistic fact that someone will always engage. I am so, so tired of pretending like "Flag and move on" is something that ever happens. Someone will always "feed the troll" (and I think that's a naive way to think of trolls these days, anyways). An argument will always start. We can condemn it or not, but we...

I still see no way out of this flame war/culture war on the forums so long as the Moderation team is underfunded and understaffed.

So, by all means, defend yourself and stand your ground.


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Anorak wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

There's also the realistic fact that someone will always engage. I am so, so tired of pretending like "Flag and move on" is something that ever happens. Someone will always "feed the troll" (and I think that's a naive way to think of trolls these days, anyways). An argument will always start. We can condemn it or not, but we...

I still see no way out of this flame war/culture war on the forums so long as the Moderation team is underfunded and understaffed.

So, by all means, defend yourself and stand your ground.

Taking a look at Jessica's new twitter opinion piece I would venture to say that it isn't just understaffed, or underfunded. But non existent.

The mind set that Customer Service is the antithesis to Community Management really resonated with me.

The CSR team here is TOP NOTCH. But their first goal is to keep individual customers happy and that is what it should be.

Community Managements goal is to keep a community healthy based on the intended vision for the community.

I would say that there is no Community Management at this stage. Just a place holder Paizo has made and filled with people who have no true vision and empowerment to build a community of inclusion.

I agree with everything you said 100% there. But I would take it that step farther and say that I don't think Paizo has a desire for community management and it is why we are in the state we are in now.

Absolutely nothing against the CSR team, they are GOLD. I sing them ACCOLADES! Top notch and couldn't ask for anything better.

But piling forum moderation onto them and calling it Community Management is a terrible plan for our community in the long run. You need full time people dedicated to cultivating a community. Not an added task to an already over loaded plate.

Whoever decided Sara Marie was redundant should not be in charge of people.

Liberty's Edge

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Yoshua wrote:

Taking a look at Jessica's new Twitter...

Which Jessica? There have been a few with Paizo :)

But as to the rest of your post, yes. I had that stance earlier that there should be a dedicated Community Manager with a crack Mods team. But I was told that would never happen because of money, soooo *sad face* le sigh.


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Anorak wrote:
Yoshua wrote:

Taking a look at Jessica's new Twitter...

Which Jessica? There have been a few with Paizo :)

But as to the rest of your post, yes. I had that stance earlier that there should be a dedicated Community Manager with a crack Mods team. But I was told that would never happen because of money, soooo *sad face* le sigh.

The infamous one. Linkified here. It is a long read but she isn't saying anything I am not agreeing with on this one.

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1461187885785309184

Go to Very Informational Opinion.

Click the Show Thread under Jessica Price's post.

Liberty's Edge

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Yoshua wrote:

Click the Show Thread under Jessica Price's post.

Thanks, Yoshua!

Digging into Jessica's thread, it seems to boil down to The Executives, which takes us back to the CEO, which from my stance, ultimately lands at Lisa, the Owners feet. The buck stops with Lisa.

Dark Archive

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Anorak wrote:
Yoshua wrote:

Click the Show Thread under Jessica Price's post.

Thanks, Yoshua!

Digging into Jessica's thread, it seems to boil down to The Executives, which takes us back to the CEO, which from my stance, ultimately lands at Lisa, the Owners feet. The buck stops with Lisa.

One could say the avalanche started with Lisa.


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Great points by Jessica all around. I definitely hadn't thought previously about how different the jobs of moderation and customer service actually *are*, I had just been thinking in terms of "this is not the job they're trained to do".

Silver Crusade

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Just a point of clarity, Lisa IS the CEO. Still. Just look in the back of your most recent book. Jeff is the President, Lisa is the CEO. Her and Vic are mostly retired but have not given up their titles.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Developer

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MadScientistWorking wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:


Reading this recent thread really hit home for me, because I've had that exact experience. I've been in this position:

Oooo right.... I completely forgot this forum often gets brigaded by Kiwifarm members and I believe not a single Paizo related wiki isn't vandalized by them.

If you're seeing posts made by members of online hate sites, please report it to our customer service team by emailing customer.service@paizo.com with the subject line INTOLERANCE. It will be dealt with.

Grand Lodge

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Cori Marie wrote:
Vic

It is interesting to note that Vic did not "sign" the Leadership Update Team blog post. To me that indicates either (1) he does not agree with the statement or (2) he is no longer a member of the executive team. That Lisa signed it seems to indicate that while she may be transitioning off the board, she is still officially the CEO and Jeff retains his current position (president and COO, IIRC).

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Cori Marie wrote:
Just a point of clarity, Lisa IS the CEO. Still. Just look in the back of your most recent book. Jeff is the President, Lisa is the CEO. Her and Vic are mostly retired but have not given up their titles.

Oh ok! Thanks for the clarification. I keep forgetting there are two of them. Owners. Not Sith. To be clear.

TwilightKnight:

And that is interesting to note, and I will assume the latter for my mental health instead of the former.


Yoshua wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Yoshua wrote:

Taking a look at Jessica's new Twitter...

Which Jessica? There have been a few with Paizo :)

But as to the rest of your post, yes. I had that stance earlier that there should be a dedicated Community Manager with a crack Mods team. But I was told that would never happen because of money, soooo *sad face* le sigh.

The infamous one. Linkified here. It is a long read but she isn't saying anything I am not agreeing with on this one.

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1461187885785309184

Go to Very Informational Opinion.

Click the Show Thread under Jessica Price's post.

I'm unable to view birdsite due to PTSD. What's going on?


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Yoshua wrote:

Taking a look at Jessica's new Twitter...

Which Jessica? There have been a few with Paizo :)

But as to the rest of your post, yes. I had that stance earlier that there should be a dedicated Community Manager with a crack Mods team. But I was told that would never happen because of money, soooo *sad face* le sigh.

The infamous one. Linkified here. It is a long read but she isn't saying anything I am not agreeing with on this one.

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1461187885785309184

Go to Very Informational Opinion.

Click the Show Thread under Jessica Price's post.

I'm unable to view birdsite due to PTSD. What's going on?

I will poorly sum it up.

Jessica is responding to the current transphobia on the Paizo Forums and goes into quite the opinionated piece as to why she thinks it flourishes, not just here but in general.

It comes down to a company not investing in Community Management and hiring experts in that field. If you want to build an inclusive community you need experts on the dog whistles and not allow any form of hate and harassments to flourish.

She then goes on to talk about the prioritys of Customer Service vs Community Management and how CS is based on providing quality service to a customer to maintain each individual customer and do what they can to keep them happy.

While Community Management, if done well, is about having a vision for what type of community you want to maintain, in this case an inclusive one, and not allow any distractions from that goal. Which means amplifying the marginalized and making them feel not only welcome and heard but safe.

Removing anyone who doesn't help build that community, within reason. Meaning if someone is a flat out troll? Get rid of them. If someone is learning the nuances and is doing it in good faith? Educate and give them a chance.

It comes down to not putting Community Management on the Customer Service team just because it is convenient and investing in people who are not only experts in the field, but are constantly researching what is currently going on in the real world to stop the dog whistles and hate from infiltrating.

My commentary:
But that would be too much to ask. Especially from a company like Paizo where in this environment they deemed someone like Sara Marie, while Customer Service manager, redundant even though with a full plate she managed to keep the community on track for the most part even without a full time Community Manager who understood the assignment.

Sovereign Court Director of Community

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Removed a series of posts that involved allowing bigotry to sit on the forums due to lack of moderation and that calling people bigots was negative. While labeling actions may be more appropriate that labeling people, as has been said up thread "if it looks like a duck...". We appreciate the effort you put into helping call out bad behaviour and we will work to act on said information in a more timely manner.

Also removed a personally harassing post. Thanks.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
I'm unable to view birdsite due to PTSD. What's going on?

Very, very, brief summary is that customer service and community management are very different skill sets, with CS focussing on solving problems for individual customers, and CM focussing on building the whole community in a positive way and also needing to learn how to spot the bad actors.

There's some extra bits on how unfair it is to expect CS to do CM without training and a support network, and how a single community manager may not be able to identify all the different bad actors and dog whistles, just because of how many different angles those things come from

[ninja'd again]

Marketing & Media Manager

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Yoshua wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Yoshua wrote:

Taking a look at Jessica's new Twitter...

Which Jessica? There have been a few with Paizo :)

But as to the rest of your post, yes. I had that stance earlier that there should be a dedicated Community Manager with a crack Mods team. But I was told that would never happen because of money, soooo *sad face* le sigh.

The infamous one. Linkified here. It is a long read but she isn't saying anything I am not agreeing with on this one.

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1461187885785309184

Go to Very Informational Opinion.

Click the Show Thread under Jessica Price's post.

I'm unable to view birdsite due to PTSD. What's going on?

I will poorly sum it up.

Jessica is responding to the current transphobia on the Paizo Forums and goes into quite the opinionated piece as to why she thinks it flourishes, not just here but in general.

It comes down to a company not investing in Community Management and hiring experts in that field. If you want to build an inclusive community you need experts on the dog whistles and not allow any form of hate and harassments to flourish.

She then goes on to talk about the prioritys of Customer Service vs Community Management and how CS is based on providing quality service to a customer to maintain each individual customer and do what they can to keep them happy.

While Community Management, if done well, is about having a vision for what type of community you want to maintain, in this case an inclusive one, and not allow any distractions from that goal. Which means amplifying the marginalized and making them feel not only welcome and heard but safe.

Removing anyone who doesn't help build that community, within reason. Meaning if someone is a flat out troll? Get rid of them. If someone is learning the nuances and is doing it in good faith? Educate and give...

I do not think it is not too much to ask. The Paizo of yesterday is not the Paizo of today or tomorrow. Internal conversations continue. My latest suggestion is to have a Playtest-style survey about what the community wants the forums to be. We've created the products in partnership with the community. I see no reason why we should not visualize the Forums in partnership with you too. But nothing has been decided. My idea might be terrible. I share it as an example that we are seeking to be better.


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The Paizo of today has to demonstrate it is not the Paizo of the past


Aaron Shanks wrote:


I do not think it is not too much to ask. The Paizo of yesterday is not the Paizo of today or tomorrow. Internal conversations continue. My latest suggestion is to have a Playtest-style survey about what the community wants the forums to be. We've created the products in partnership with the community. I see no reason why we should not visualize the Forums in partnership with you too. But nothing has been decided. My idea might be terrible. I share it as an example that we are seeking to be better.

I love this idea, assuming there are certain mechanics preventing multiple sources of input from a single source. Thanks for chiming in Aaron.

Changes implemented from recent blog is a great example of community collaboration, in this very thread and a few others, being implemented. Collaboration is not out of reach and I think we may be able to find a reasonable solution that protects our community from further harm, especially considering that the moderation team has (up till now) been inactive relative to what the community is hoping for.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I would hope so Aaron. Always good to see your voice on here and it is appreciated.

But actions speak louder than words, and from what I understand the mechanism for removing posting rights but maintaining store access of the people who have been assaulting our marginalized communities for the last 2 months has been in place for years and wasn't used to keep our fellow forum users safe and protected.

So when you speak of Paizo of Today. I am talking about Paizo of last week, which I feel is the same Paizo of today. From what I understand it took push back from the Customer Service team, to the point that they were willing to remove store access, to the abusers to get the Community Director to identify how to do a process that they should have been well versed on from the get go. And from what I read they were infact informed of when they were given access to moderate the forums initially. Regardless of if they 'forgot' they could do it? If Sara Marie wasn't deemed redundant this wouldn't have been an issue in the first place because both Sara Marie and Diego understood the assignment. "In my Opinion"tm


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I think a "playtest" approach could work well, to a point. People don't always know what they want, and community design is, well, hard, and requires specific skillsets to do well. But some level of input and experimentation could be nice!


Yoshua wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Yoshua wrote:

Taking a look at Jessica's new Twitter...

Which Jessica? There have been a few with Paizo :)

But as to the rest of your post, yes. I had that stance earlier that there should be a dedicated Community Manager with a crack Mods team. But I was told that would never happen because of money, soooo *sad face* le sigh.

The infamous one. Linkified here. It is a long read but she isn't saying anything I am not agreeing with on this one.

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1461187885785309184

Go to Very Informational Opinion.

Click the Show Thread under Jessica Price's post.

I'm unable to view birdsite due to PTSD. What's going on?

I will poorly sum it up.

Jessica is responding to the current transphobia on the Paizo Forums and goes into quite the opinionated piece as to why she thinks it flourishes, not just here but in general.

It comes down to a company not investing in Community Management and hiring experts in that field. If you want to build an inclusive community you need experts on the dog whistles and not allow any form of hate and harassments to flourish.

She then goes on to talk about the prioritys of Customer Service vs Community Management and how CS is based on providing quality service to a customer to maintain each individual customer and do what they can to keep them happy.

While Community Management, if done well, is about having a vision for what type of community you want to maintain, in this case an inclusive one, and not allow any distractions from that goal. Which means amplifying the marginalized and making them feel not only welcome and heard but safe.

Removing anyone who doesn't help build that community, within reason. Meaning if someone is a flat out troll? Get rid of them. If someone is learning the nuances and is doing it in good faith? Educate and give...

I mean it's worth noting that there are existing Community Management positions in Paizo just only in regards to certain parts. And oooo boy I can tell you it's a market difference in quality between a person who lets the cats wander around and do what they please and someone who gently guides the cats in a proper direction. Why that analogy? I don't know.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My concern with a survey is that it would have to be INCREDIBLY well-crafted to prevent it from being derailed/junk-data/obliterated by individuals who would seek to do both Paizo and marginalized communities harm that have come to the aegis of Paizo for protection.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

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Yoshua wrote:
But actions speak louder than words, and from what I understand the mechanism for removing posting rights but maintaining store access of the people who have been assaulting our marginalized communities for the last 2 months has been in place for years and wasn't used to keep our fellow forum users safe and protected.

As with many organizations, a lot of problems at Paizo stem from poor communication, both between the company and the community, as well as internally. This is not unique to Paizo, but it's clear from the last few months that is has to be a priority for us. Both external and internal communication have to improve.

To wit, I and a few others have been pushing very hard (and for a lot longer than just since Gen Con) to get better internal documentation in place to help address just this sort of issue. The problem you cite wasn't that we chose not to use the tools at our disposal, but rather that we didn't know what tools we had or how they worked.

Building thorough documentation to ameliorate this situation isn't an easy task. There are nearly 2 decades of institutional knowledge into processes, tools, and past decisions that need to be synthesized into a readable, useful set of documents. And many, many of the people who made those old decisions, built those old tools, or established processes are no longer with the company for any number of reasons.

I say all this to both correct a misattribution of intent, but also to show that we are working to improve things, even if there's no concrete action we can point to publicly or that the community can see. My hope is that, over time, the creation and dissemination of these resources internally can help change the culture at the company, and enable Paizo to better engage with the community in a safe, mutually beneficial manner. Only time will tell if that happens. I appreciate your patience in the meantime.


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The fact that Tonya knew how to deal with inappropriate posts and chose not to until there was pushback from the CS team is telling and has helped to create the mistrust people feel. Jeff's non apology apology is a part of that.


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I'm not sure, but it's possible Mark is saying that Tonya may genuinely have not known due to faulty communication and documentation--or at least that it's a possibility.

I do think we should be careful to avoid giving the impression of directly confronting Paizo employees with their coworkers' "misdeeds", justified or no. Mark's trying to clarify an issue and talk about what may have caused it, and expecting him to have an answer for Tonya feels a little potentially yucky.

This is not to say I don't think Tonya still bears a lot of responsibility for the current situation. This is why you don't try to replace and then abruptly fire the person who knows where everything is.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Alright, from my perspective (and keep in mind that I often come to the forum here in Germany and find a lot of people upset about posts which already have been deleted while I was sleeping or at work), some people have been really needlessly aggressive towards Tonya, especially in the last few days, with a lot of what I can only call "assumptions of bad behaviour". So far that I can see, she is doing her best and working overtime with no pay for that to boot.

Calm down a bit, guys, as we can see the moderation is implementing better moderation techniques as we speak.


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It has been pretty much confirmed that Tonya angled to get a job above Sara Marie, then fired Sara Marie a couple weeks later, replacing her in the process.

There is a reason why people try to compliment Tonya and the CSR team separately for now. A lot of this mess is a mess Tonya has directly contributed to.

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