Dragon-Themed Ancestries


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Ly'ualdre wrote:
I feel like a Dragonkin Ancestry and possibly a Half-Dragon Heritage are about the closest thing to something official we will see; not including Wyvarans, which I think will be a Kobold Heritage and is inevitable.

I'm surprised that Kobolds weren't chosen as "the new core race" for P2E. While they have different settings, back in D&D 3.5, Kobolds could have any alignment that matched True Dragons, including Metallic ones. You technically had a better chance of encountering a gold-scaled Kobold LG Champion than a good-aligned goblin. Kobolds also already have every dragon families to use as heritages.

Ly'ualdre wrote:
I've resigned to the fact Paizo has been fairly vocal in the past about wanting to avoid focusing too much on Dragons for their setting. So along with the Dragon Ancestry and Dragon Scion Heritage from BattleZoo; if we happen to get any of the aforementioned options, I'd be content.

I think they just wanted to nerf the half-dragon template, because everyone was using it to the point of saturation. What,s dumb is that they never offered a proper alternative. I mean, for half-celestials, we had aasimars; for half-fiends, we had tieflings; for half-elementals, we have the geniekins, etc, yet nothing for the half-dragon.

There's the wyvaran, both they've made it a bit too strong for regular use. If they made it the "hobgoblin version" of kobolds (a Medium subrace), that would have worked.
- Medium humanoid (kobold)
- No wings
- No restricted tail slap
- Better stats
- Access to dragon-related traits

Ly'ualdre wrote:
In a few cultures, Naga are considered a kind of dragon. So if you squint, one could argue Nagaji are a dragon people. Lol

Serpentfolk ancestries could work with Nagajis though.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Goblins were chosen because they were basically the unofficial mascots for the Pathfinder. The lore implication is that small groups of Goblins have become more social and heroic in recent years, so people are starting to view them less as monsters as a whole.

I'm not sure if nerfing the amount of Half-Dragons running around had much to do with it; but the specific reason I recall was because other systems and settings (i.e: D&D) had a foothold on Dragons being major components of their world and products. They wanted to not only avoid comparisons, but also strike out with their own unique world, without having to result to using Dragons as a focus. It's part of the reason we didn't see a Dragon focused AP until Age of Ashes.

And I'm not sure what the Serpantfolk/Nagaji thing is meant to mean. Are you saying Serpantfolk can function using the Nagaji?


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Half-Dragons were dissuaded also because there were so, so many back into 3.X years. The editors were getting tired of them in submissions and said as much (along w/ undead invasions and a few other tropes). The template had become an easy route to make effective villains especially out of "feeble" humanoids that had a hard time living up to their CR). Their prevalence watered down the flavor. Remember when the Dracolisk was stunningly original? (Those who eat Werther's do...)
Similar could be said about Half-Fiends. As an admitted abuser of templates, I understood. :-) Still saw some, yet where the dragon portion mattered, i.e. a prophet of a dragon's return in Brevoy.

Nowadays, PF2's system makes templates shorthand patches rather than the baseline way to strengthen a build. You want to give a humanoid BBEG an AoE & high Str? Boom, they have it without having to resort to shenanigans or watering down the gravitas of dragons.

I'll note PF1's Dragon's Demand also scratched the dragon itch, and took the story into Lovecraftian realms too for a fresh mix. That's kind of what dragon stories need, a fresh take, much like how in Age of Ashes the PCs dragon interactions have strong ties to Golarion's lore & future.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Indeed. I forgot to mention, but I also agree that the lack of a... ahem.. "Dragon Scion" to mirror the Aasimar/Tiefling felt a bit odd. But we have it now with BattleZoo, and they did a fantastic job imo.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a draconic crossword to complete. *eats Werther's Orignals*


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I’d welcome an official draconic Versatile Heritage once we get around to Tian Xia, though. There’s a whole country, Xa Hoi, where draconic bloodlines are prominent, and the trope is too fun to lose out on forever, IMO.

On an earlier topic: I’m not actually sure we’ve heard a single mention of Wyvarans in 2e, which is starting to make me nervous about their odds for LOIL. Not having a Bestiary entry or mention in a sidebar worries me; the team loves foreshadowing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I wouldn't worry too much about their inclusion. There population is mostly confined to the Impossible Lands region of the Inner Sea, so I would expect to see them in that book. Now, if they aren't, then maybe we worry.

Xa Hoi was the biggest reason I wanted to see an official Dragon Scion. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't care as much. But there is in-world precedence. And my character, Jin Shang, the Dragon Prince and future Emporer of Xa Hoi's Jinlōng Dynasty needs to be a quarter Dragon. I vote we call them Dragnier.


Ly'ualdre wrote:
Goblins were chosen because they were basically the unofficial mascots for the Pathfinder. The lore implication is that small groups of Goblins have become more social and heroic in recent years, so people are starting to view them less as monsters as a whole.

Sounds more like they were trying to have a racial evil counterpart to halflings IMO.

Ly'ualdre wrote:
I'm not sure if nerfing the amount of Half-Dragons running around had much to do with it; but the specific reason I recall was because other systems and settings (i.e: D&D) had a foothold on Dragons being major components of their world and products. They wanted to not only avoid comparisons, but also strike out with their own unique world, without having to result to using Dragons as a focus. It's part of the reason we didn't see a Dragon focused AP until Age of Ashes.

As others said, there were many half-dragon characters, to the point of saturation. That's why they even limited their breath weapon to "racial HD" in order to avoid PCs and NPCs to use their class HD to power it up.

Ly'ualdre wrote:
And I'm not sure what the Serpantfolk/Nagaji thing is meant to mean. Are you saying Serpantfolk can function using the Nagaji?

It's from another topic about playable serfentfolks... when the nagajis are already serpentlike humanoids :P


keftiu wrote:

I’d welcome an official draconic Versatile Heritage once we get around to Tian Xia, though. There’s a whole country, Xa Hoi, where draconic bloodlines are prominent, and the trope is too fun to lose out on forever, IMO.

On an earlier topic: I’m not actually sure we’ve heard a single mention of Wyvarans in 2e, which is starting to make me nervous about their odds for LOIL. Not having a Bestiary entry or mention in a sidebar worries me; the team loves foreshadowing.

Welp I guess I can just ask Dms if my kobold can be medium. Close enough


keftiu wrote:

I’d welcome an official draconic Versatile Heritage once we get around to Tian Xia, though. There’s a whole country, Xa Hoi, where draconic bloodlines are prominent, and the trope is too fun to lose out on forever, IMO.

On an earlier topic: I’m not actually sure we’ve heard a single mention of Wyvarans in 2e, which is starting to make me nervous about their odds for LOIL. Not having a Bestiary entry or mention in a sidebar worries me; the team loves foreshadowing.

I don't think there was a lot of foreshadowing about Golomas or Shisk before they appeared as fully playable ancestries in the Mwangi Expanse book, so there's precedent for our first look at an Ancestry being their mechanics.


Ventnor wrote:
keftiu wrote:

I’d welcome an official draconic Versatile Heritage once we get around to Tian Xia, though. There’s a whole country, Xa Hoi, where draconic bloodlines are prominent, and the trope is too fun to lose out on forever, IMO.

On an earlier topic: I’m not actually sure we’ve heard a single mention of Wyvarans in 2e, which is starting to make me nervous about their odds for LOIL. Not having a Bestiary entry or mention in a sidebar worries me; the team loves foreshadowing.

I don't think there was a lot of foreshadowing about Golomas or Shisk before they appeared as fully playable ancestries in the Mwangi Expanse book, so there's precedent for our first look at an Ancestry being their mechanics.

They were namedropped, at least, while I don’t think the word “Wyvaran” has seen print in 2e yet.

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