Dragon-Themed Ancestries


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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As a kobold enthusiast, I must know... When can we expect to see wyvaran and other dragon themed ancestries?


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Kobolder! wrote:
As a kobold enthusiast, I must know... When can we expect to see wyvaran and other dragon themed ancestries?

We can expect them right now! We would be wildly inaccurate, of course, but that doesn't need to stop us.

Mark Seifter did a Kickstarter for playable dragon ancestries as a third-party product.

For first party, probably not for at least a year? I think we don't have any announcements for books that they'd fit in, and after that, it probably depends on when we get a book about more of Garund.


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Once they get to the other planets I wonder if Dragonkin will be playable like in Starfinder.

Although in SF genetic engineering is used as explanation why Dragonkin are shrunken to be just large (a requirement for PC adventuring) it is highly questionable.


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Luis Loza’s patreon has a Dragonkin versatile heritage, while Mark Seifter is making playing Dragons for the Battlezoo Bestiary kickstarter.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Would love a book of draconic options. Ancestries, heritages, feats, archetypes, equipment, and lore. Bring it all :)


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LizardMage wrote:
Would love a book of draconic options. Ancestries, heritages, feats, archetypes, equipment, and lore. Bring it all :)

One that was a Paizo product and could be used for PFS2, of course.


At the moment it seems unlikely we will get a "dragonborn" equivalent - the equivalent in pathfinder is the Dragonkin, which in is a large creature in PF1 and is a large creature that is playable in Starfinder, which so far seems to be one of the things that PF2 is allergic to for player characters.

Keep in mind that you can represent half-dragon characters without using ancestries - the dragon instinct barbarian for example is great for representing someone with draconic heritage.


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I would certainly welcome Wyvarans!

Silver Crusade

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Giant flying plushies!!!


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Rysky wrote:
Giant flying plushies!!!

I for one would love a "Plushie Dragon" ancestry, though I suppose that's totally valid for Poppet.


I hope for a Dragon heritage to allow for swapping class feats for dragon class feats, however that's working in the Dragon ancestry book. Half dragons as versatile would open up so many options for me.


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Dubious Scholar wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Giant flying plushies!!!
I for one would love a "Plushie Dragon" ancestry, though I suppose that's totally valid for Poppet.

Perhaps a Beastkin Poppet?


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They could do with a versatile "dragon-blooded" heritage. Dead easy and quick for them to make. Able to fill any dragon-themed niches for the ancestries. It really should be a thing already given all the asimar, tieflings, geniekin etc running around. They know it'd see use too. So, can some savvy paizo dev take note and get on it already? :)


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Kobolder! wrote:
They could do with a versatile "dragon-blooded" heritage. Dead easy and quick for them to make. Able to fill any dragon-themed niches for the ancestries. It really should be a thing already given all the asimar, tieflings, geniekin etc running around. They know it'd see use too. So, can some savvy paizo dev take note and get on it already? :)

You are describing Luis Loza’s homebrew pretty much exactly - I bet you’d like it!


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keftiu wrote:
Kobolder! wrote:
They could do with a versatile "dragon-blooded" heritage. Dead easy and quick for them to make. Able to fill any dragon-themed niches for the ancestries. It really should be a thing already given all the asimar, tieflings, geniekin etc running around. They know it'd see use too. So, can some savvy paizo dev take note and get on it already? :)
You are describing Luis Loza’s homebrew pretty much exactly - I bet you’d like it!

I just searched for it. Yes. That. But official.


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Looked through more of his stuff. Can they just make a luis loza appreciation companion book so all of his homebrew can become official? Sahkil lineage? Yes please. Couatl lineage? I've wanted that for 5+ years, sign me up. Its like he peeked at my Christmas list.

Those latest three really hit the mark and are definitely my favourite of the posts.

Im not sure, but doesn't him making those homebrews public significantly reduce the chance of them ever being official? If so he needs to be stopped immediately. That's the best ancestry stuff I've seen for 2e since the introduction of versatile heritages and it HURTS that its not official.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber

I fully respect Mark Seifter and others who made the books for that kickstarter. The only annoying thing is as a third party book it is harder to het a GM to approve it for the game and of course it makes it not viable for PFS. Because of the limits of PFS until we get an official version or officially recognized we will still be lacing this component.


I have always wanted a dragon-blooded heritage similar to tieflings and aasimar because I like the story options it can open up without being tied to a class. I think it was James Jacobs that said he liked the sorcerer because the bloodlines offered a built-in story, which is true but doesn't help if you don't want to play a spell-caster (personally I would also want a fey heritage, but that's not the purpose of this thread).
I know back in the day (the Dragon mag and start of Pathfinder days), Paizo creative said they were burned out on half-dragons because they got put into so many adventures due to their power increase on a creature so they deliberately steered away from those in 1e, but I also kind of assumed that was why we never got like a dragon-touched human but I'd love to see an official dragon-blood versatile heritage


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I kind of wish that bringing up PFS outside of the PFS forums was considered off-topic. It dominates every discussion and rains on people being hyped for perfectly valid and well-made projects from actual Paizo devs that just weren't published by Paizo. It is silly.

Truly: Keftiu's recs are solid. Also incredibly hyped for the dragon ancestries.


OrochiFuror wrote:
I hope for a Dragon heritage to allow for swapping class feats for dragon class feats, however that's working in the Dragon ancestry book. Half dragons as versatile would open up so many options for me.

As far as we know it's basically like this: you pick an ancestry plus heritage as normal, just from the dragon options. That gives the usual ancestry stuff like senses, movement speeds, minor spells and so on.

Then you can spec into a variety of archetypes - ravager is presumably the "martial" one, dragon mage the spellcaster and there might be more - that you use as you would any other archetype. Just instead of getting Power Attack or something you get Draconic Frenzy, breath weapon improvements and the like.

Something like a half-dragon is actually a possibility with this very same book. But Mark has been very cautious in promising anything in that regard, so don't get your hopes up too much for now. That said, even if it isn't in this book, given Glicker's how he is and Mark's passion for this part of the project in particular, chances are real good that we won't have to wait ages for a second dragon book :D


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Saedar wrote:

I kind of wish that bringing up PFS outside of the PFS forums was considered off-topic. It dominates every discussion and rains on people being hyped for perfectly valid and well-made projects from actual Paizo devs that just weren't published by Paizo. It is silly.

Truly: Keftiu's recs are solid. Also incredibly hyped for the dragon ancestries.

For those of us who only get play opportunity for Organized Play, that's kind of a crucial concern.

That being said I appreciate all the folks that are able to get decent games out there outside of an organized framework that don't have to deal with the RL logistics of trying to find a group that one can trust, a GM that isn't completely toxic, and a place to play that isn't a threat to one's health and well-being.

And yes, outside of Organized Play, that's typically been the checkbox of games I could find, so it is influencing my thoughts.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

@ Kage_no_Oukami: I remember that and it always disappointed me in the 1e days. I always felt that just because WotC took D&D really heavy in to Dragon territory didn't mean that Paizo still couldn't do some draconic options and a reasonable player race (their own Dragonborn). Now that we are in 2e and have Versatile heritages and a fairly unique system I think it's totally safe for them to do some dragon options.

Like I've said, a book on Pathfinder's dragons would great, in my opinion. Class options, a race, and an entire lore section that discusses the various dragons motives and more common personality traits would be great. Book of Dragons would be great I think.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Saedar wrote:

I kind of wish that bringing up PFS outside of the PFS forums was considered off-topic. It dominates every discussion and rains on people being hyped for perfectly valid and well-made projects from actual Paizo devs that just weren't published by Paizo. It is silly.

Truly: Keftiu's recs are solid. Also incredibly hyped for the dragon ancestries.

For those of us who only get play opportunity for Organized Play, that's kind of a crucial concern.

That being said I appreciate all the folks that are able to get decent games out there outside of an organized framework that don't have to deal with the RL logistics of trying to find a group that one can trust, a GM that isn't completely toxic, and a place to play that isn't a threat to one's health and well-being.

And yes, outside of Organized Play, that's typically been the checkbox of games I could find, so it is influencing my thoughts.

And I'm absolutely sympathetic to that. I spent years surrounded by toxic people, GMs and otherwise. Got a lot better once I cut every one of them out of life, regardless of how long we had known one another.

I'm glad that Organized Play has given you a safe space! <3


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Not official but for 5e converts, you can use my Dragonborn ancestry, which I've had people use before. Might satisfy that draconic humanoid itch for some


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As someone who tends to exclusively play reptilian characters, not having half dragons is rough, the idea that they are staying away from it because it is or was popular in D&D (and poorly balanced), sounds dumb to me. Like losing money on something a modest number of people would make use of sort of dumb. Nevermind not getting serpentfolk or other options, yet.

Hmmm, Luis has the couatle stuff done, was it him that mentioned in one of the live stream about maybe getting it as a heritage? That got my hopes up. Couatles are my second favorite thing right after dragons but very little has ever been done with them. The one in grand bazaar is super cute. Would love to see them fleshed out in the cosmology and such.
Anyhow more reptiles, please.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

They could tone PF2 half-dragons way down by making them a universal heritage.

Silver Crusade

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Reminder that since Planar Dragons exist you can play dragonoid character with Planar Scions.


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While it is important to have PFS legal options for people who play PFS, I don't think PFS is a good option to be the "default game" you design around, regardless of statistics.

It is better to treat it as a secondary game type (lets make sure not everything in this book is PFS illegal!) as that stops its restrictiveness from stifling traditional kitchen table games.

Additionally, if your group isn't playing PFS, but your GM is scared to try non-official content, Battlezoo Bestiary is probably one of the best possible options for them to give 3rd part content a try. The rules in that book are largely overseen and written by the Head Designer of PF2 with the express intent that they be balanced.

If you are running a regular, non-PFS game, then letting a player play out the fantasy of being a dragon is a pretty great option and probably more valuable than avoiding a little potential unbalancing (as long as it is a setting/campaign to which that option is suited).

I used to be very against using 3rd party books, but what turned me around was the GM of the 5e game I was playing in bringing in stuff from the Tal'dorei book (while it has semi-official status now, it was written and published by a third party) and a couple really well made 3rd party bestiary books (I think it was Kobold Presses Creature Codex and Tome of Beasts).

I generally stick to the well-produced stuff that has full colour art and a hardcover (while those don't guarantee well written rules, they are still indicators of resources and quality and that enough people think that project is good to support selling hardcovers with full art).

edit: another good approach to trying out some 3rd party is to start with bestiaries. It is pretty easy to check if a monster fits roughly within the right numbers by checking the GMGs monster creation guidelines, and if a monster turns out to be a bit unbalanced all it does is affect one fight. It is also the area that in my opinion most needs 3rd party or homebrew content, as most of the monsters that tend to exist in groups are currently very lacking when it comes to having a variant to fill various roles (this is the case with many of the humanoid monster "factions" which usually only have 2 or 3 entries - for example I ended up writing up a goblin chieftain because the PF2 bestiaries don't have a leader goblin yet).


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Taking PFS out of it, I have had many DMs in the past and they have all had the rule of no 3rd party content. That's the only reason I want to see official stuff. Luis loza's latest lineages and the dragon versatile heritage are perfect, balanced work that are exactly what I want, but the fact its not been made official means me and a lot of other people probably wont get to enjoy them.

So yes, paizo, please find a way of working some of their stuff into official books. The work has been done by your passionate writers/devs already and people want it! Knowing this stuff was in a official publication would increase my chance of buying it significantly, I'm sure I'm not alone.


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I'm happily using Luis' dragon heritage for an upcoming game (that I'm GMing), and have a dragon-y oread lady planned for some potential future game. But god I want more. There's no such thing as too much dragon stuff (though I'm of course more than fine with it not being Common).

My main issue with wyvarans has always been that one pic that comes up if you google them with one with a dog head. What's with that guy? I keep thinking of him whenever I think about wyvarans and I would like to think about lizards instead.


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Rysky wrote:
Reminder that since Planar Dragons exist you can play dragonoid character with Planar Scions.

Primal Dragons could definitely by the elemental ancestor of your Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, Undine, or Suli character. Heck, it's implied in some of the books that many dwarven sylphs from the Mwangi Expanse are born because both of the major dwarven cultures there are heavily tied to cloud dragons.

Silver Crusade

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Ventnor wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Reminder that since Planar Dragons exist you can play dragonoid character with Planar Scions.
Primal Dragons could definitely by the elemental ancestor of your Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, Undine, or Suli character. Heck, it's implied in some of the books that many dwarven sylphs from the Mwangi Expanse are born because both of the major dwarven cultures there are heavily tied to cloud dragons.

*nods*

It’s specially called out in the sidebars for the Elemental Scions as well :3


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Kobolder! wrote:
So yes, paizo, please find a way of working some of their stuff into official books. The work has been done by your passionate writers/devs already and people want it! Knowing this stuff was in a official publication would increase my chance of buying it significantly, I'm sure I'm not alone.

Probably the reason these people who mostly work for Paizo and have the ability to help decide what options are created in official books are publishing these things independently is because they can't be included in the official books because they fall outside of the guidelines that official content has to follow.


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Tender Tendrils wrote:
Kobolder! wrote:
So yes, paizo, please find a way of working some of their stuff into official books. The work has been done by your passionate writers/devs already and people want it! Knowing this stuff was in a official publication would increase my chance of buying it significantly, I'm sure I'm not alone.
Probably the reason these people who mostly work for Paizo and have the ability to help decide what options are created in official books are publishing these things independently is because they can't be included in the official books because they fall outside of the guidelines that official content has to follow.

I dont know, luis loza's dragon heritage and the aasimar/tiefling lineages seem very in line/constrained to what you'd see from an official publication. Theres no power creep or anything unusual about the feats they get at all. If it is the case that it falls outside the guidelines of official content it must be because of theme, not rules. Which would mean paizo guidelines say no sahkil/couatl content and no draconic stuff. The latter might be the case (which would be a mistake imo) but i can't see why they'd have guidelines around the former.

Its more likely that it is the exact type of thing they could publish but luis loza didn't think an appropriate product for it was going to be worked on anytime soon, so he decided to throw it on his blog instead. Which is a very cool thing to do because all the people that can use homebrew get a chance to enjoy it, but doesn't help much for those of us that need it to be officially published.

Regardless, if these ancestry options are the kind of thing he wants to be contributing to official publications, im happy he's currently working on pathfinder, even if the stuff he's posted on blog are taunting me with what easily "could have been" official but aren't.


Might not be the best example but he did have homebrew guns on his Patreon before Guns and Gears, if Paizo wanted a sakhil tiefling in an upcoming book I don't think Luis' homebrew project is going to be a deterent.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Reminder that since Planar Dragons exist you can play dragonoid character with Planar Scions.
Primal Dragons could definitely by the elemental ancestor of your Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, Undine, or Suli character. Heck, it's implied in some of the books that many dwarven sylphs from the Mwangi Expanse are born because both of the major dwarven cultures there are heavily tied to cloud dragons.

*nods*

It’s specially called out in the sidebars for the Elemental Scions as well :3

I have an undine kobold that I'm slowly banking ACP for that's loosely based on this concept, inspired by a certain scenario.

That aside, it'd be neat to not have to do all the work, just some of it. :>


I think it's that developers are simply inspired by stuff that isn't in Pathfinder's pipeline at present, so they toss it up on blogs and such so that it's out in the wild at the very least. PF2E hasn't got the insane production schedule that 1E did, with I think four monthly lines all going at the same time, so naturally the number of thematic niches they can tackle at one time is going to be more limited.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah I think its just a matter of only having so many products and accepted design pitches on the release schedule and the fact that when theyre contracted for freelance work, its not like theyll hold cool things back for official products, unless they have some reason it would need to be tackled there.

Liberty's Edge

Two big non-Paizo products on draconic ancestries by 2 big Paizo people indeed do not bode well for an official take on the same.

Why put your efforts on 3pp when you could spend it on Paizo products, unless you're pretty sure these won't happen anytime soon, if ever ?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd have to think that if Paizo was interested in publishing these kinds of options (at least any time soon) then Mark and Luis wouldn't be bothering to publish them through 3rd parties. Which is a bummer to hear, but probably true. That said, I guess it can't hurt to make a thread letting Paizo know you want it, on the off chance that they change their stance.


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We want it.

Sincerely,
Me.

(Or did you mean make a thread somewhere else?)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There's also the possibility that Paizo wants to encourage 3rd party usage, and these things made by Paizo staff are the gateway content for more widespread 3rd party acceptance.


The Raven Black wrote:

Two big non-Paizo products on draconic ancestries by 2 big Paizo people indeed do not bode well for an official take on the same.

Why put your efforts on 3pp when you could spend it on Paizo products, unless you're pretty sure these won't happen anytime soon, if ever ?

Because they feel passionately about the subject and just really want to make it now?

Because they are reading player demand and, since they know people will also appreciate official content, they can help to fill that demand twice?
Because they have a specific vision for the 3P thing being discussed, as happened with firearm mechanics, and want to give people options for how they interact with that gaming aspect?

The thing about 3P, as mentioned upthread, is that it's the creator's rationale as to why content gets made, not Paizo's, so the reason can be anything, really.


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Tender Tendrils wrote:
Kobolder! wrote:
So yes, paizo, please find a way of working some of their stuff into official books. The work has been done by your passionate writers/devs already and people want it! Knowing this stuff was in a official publication would increase my chance of buying it significantly, I'm sure I'm not alone.
Probably the reason these people who mostly work for Paizo and have the ability to help decide what options are created in official books are publishing these things independently is because they can't be included in the official books because they fall outside of the guidelines that official content has to follow.

I’m not so sure this is the case. Paizo has a limited number of products a year, and sometimes you have an idea - like Luis Loza making Rabbitfolk, or Mark Seifter making 45 different playable dragons - and there’s just not a book they fit in.


Starfinder has the vesk..why cant that be .ade for pf2?

Silver Crusade

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Lore reasons pretty much, they live in a galxy far far away.

Not impossible to add them, but do the pathfinder writers want to copy Starfinder stuff is the question (that answer is usually no in most aspects)?


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crazymusic2001 wrote:
Starfinder has the vesk..why cant that be .ade for pf2?

While there's certainly overlap, Paizo tries to avoid poaching too much from each game so they can maintain some distinction especially for creatures discovered in the course of Starfinder events. (This kind of goes to for poaching from D&D which leans heavier into dragon themes.) Vesk history (AFAIK), occurring in another solar system, doesn't overlap w/ Golarion history so introducing them would conflict w/ Starfinder canon.

But it would be simple for a PF2 GM to adapt a Vesk to the game by borrowing Ancestry feats from Kobolds & Lizardfolk plus having some for whatever Vesk traits are too strong to be freebies. They could even tag on a different "draconic" name for flavor. Easy enough, just not something I think Golarion needs, at least not until there's a dragon-themed AP or world event.


Also, Vesk aren't related to dragons as far as I'm aware. I believe it's in some of their legends but not exactly confirmed.


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crazymusic2001 wrote:
Starfinder has the vesk..why cant that be .ade for pf2?

The Vesk aren’t terribly draconic, no? If you just want to be big and scaly, play an Iruxi, or wait for Nagaji to release later this year.

Pathfinder’s already got everything in Numeria and Golarion’s solar system; stretching further beyond that into the galaxy strains the genre constraints, and muddies the separate identity Starfinder has fought pretty hard to define for itself.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I feel like a Dragonkin Ancestry and possibly a Half-Dragon Heritage are about the closest thing to something official we will see; not including Wyvarans, which I think will be a Kobold Heritage and is inevitable.

I've resigned to the fact Paizo has been fairly vocal in the past about wanting to avoid focusing too much on Dragons for their setting. So along with the Dragon Ancestry and Dragon Scion Heritage from BattleZoo; if we happen to get any of the aforementioned options, I'd be content.

In a few cultures, Naga are considered a kind of dragon. So if you squint, one could argue Nagaji are a dragon people. Lol

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