Of all the changes I thought Paizo would make to Pathfinder.....


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... I gotta admit, I never saw this one coming.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/pathfinder-paizo-phylactery-lich-soul-cag es/

Grand Lodge

John Lance wrote:

... I gotta admit, I never saw this one coming.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/pathfinder-paizo-phylactery-lich-soul-cag es/

This doesn't take you anywhere.


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linkified

There was a space inserted before the final two letters in the cut-and-paste process. (The forum software does that intermittently if the copied web address goes beyond a line, I believe).


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John Lance wrote:

... I gotta admit, I never saw this one coming.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/pathfinder-paizo-phylactery-lich-soul-cag es/

I think it's a pretty admirable step to take to proactively revise content which comes from potentially problematic source material. It might fly under the radar for a lot of people, but not everyone, and ultimately I think it's hard to argue that Soul Cage isn't a *better* explanation for what a lich is making.


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The reason a lot of things don't get changed is that the majority don't realize it's an inappropriate use of the word. I love that Paizo is open to revising things when they realize the issue.


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Huh. I wasn't aware of that origin (and never saw the version mentioned in the article), so this is new to me. I don't mind the change at all... though it's going to take me ages to re-train my brain to use a different term.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I just hope they don't mindlessly change certain magic items to a "Soul Cage of Faithfulness" or a "Soul Cage of Positive Channeling". The magic item phylacteries really should not be renamed.


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Soul Cage sounds like a cooler and more evocative name to me in the first place. Clearly explains the concept and creates a visual of the Lich holding their own soul hostage against themselves. I like it.


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David knott 242 wrote:
I just hope they don't mindlessly change certain magic items to a "Soul Cage of Faithfulness" or a "Soul Cage of Positive Channeling". The magic item phylacteries really should not be renamed.

Or at least not to "soul cage". If they do want to move away from using phylactery at all, they should be able to find another more appropriate term.

Grand Lodge

Works for me.

Wayfinders

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thejeff wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
I just hope they don't mindlessly change certain magic items to a "Soul Cage of Faithfulness" or a "Soul Cage of Positive Channeling". The magic item phylacteries really should not be renamed.
Or at least not to "soul cage". If they do want to move away from using phylactery at all, they should be able to find another more appropriate term.

To be fair, those at least seem like more accurate uses of the term, and have more neutral/positive connotations; Either way they're not soul cages, even if they wind up being something else.


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The other item phylacteries arent symbols of evil so probably won't get renamed, I think it was just the idea of something so holy to some people being turned into an unholy thing that was the reason it was changed.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I must have a different set of expectations since I'm not surprised.


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Good change. Good for Paizo to be the one to make the change first.


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Interesting, given that it is based (at least originally) on the Greek word for amulet ……

But hey soul cage sounds fine, even if the term will take some getting used to.


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I think it is pretty great to stop associating a Jewish sacred object with pure evil, like that is pretty much a no-brainer. There have been enough (and by enough, let me be clear, I mean way too many) stereotypes in history that portray Judaism as the source of all evil as it is.

Though, I do prefer "Soul Cubby" to "Soul Cage".


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I admit the original word meaning was quite obscure and had never realized that this was the English term for the Hebrew concept, but then I am not a native English speaker.

However I agree that given the potential association it may give (well if people realize the background of the term) it is good to make the change and indeed if it helps even any potential issues, why not change it.


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Incredibly obscure origins. Never knew it was offensive to some. I'm glad it changed, but soul cage sounds a bit flat.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Good change. I knew it was problematic but just changed it in my head to be horcrux's after Harry Potter.

Soul Cage vs Container of Evil.

Would have been smart to come up with a new word, fake word like Horcrux but anything is better than co opting people's religious artifiacts.

As for Virtue Signaling, that isn't this. This is someone in the chain pointing out 'hey, that is problematic' and someone else in the chain saying 'yup, that's true'


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My first reaction when I read up what phylactery is was "why on earth did associating religious Jewish items with sources of immortality of evil undead spellcasters fly in D&D, did anybody think this through" and I'm happy that Paizo is fixing this overdue mistake.


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Considering Gary Gygax's well-publicized politics, it's not THAT surprising, tbh. You'd think someone would stop and think in the intervening 40 years though!

Liberty's Edge

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Yoshua wrote:
Would have been smart to come up with a new word, fake word like Horcrux but anything is better than co opting people's religious artifiacts.

I thought the same for a bit after hearing the news but I think the real reason there wasn't a new flavorful word cooked up to replace it probably relates to how the OGL works, if they tied it to something in their setting then free online resources that aren't officially licensed (d20pfsrd, pathbuilder, easytools etc) would end up needing to either stick with phylactery or all decide on another different name.

Soul Cage doesn't strike me as a particularly "strong" choice but given the alternative, it's a decent fit even if it's a bit on the nose, and certainly more respectful.


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It has a non directly Jewish or religious meaning "amulet" but it doesn't really apply. It is likely that the origins of the term in D&D is somebody grabbing a thesaurus more than 40 years ago.

However, "soul cage" lacks punch. I would prefer something more evocative like "anima anchor".

Humbly,
Yawar

Grand Lodge

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They can rename it whatever they want, but after more than forty years, I'm perfectly comfortable continuing to call it a phylactery.


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I personally rpefer Soul Vessal.

However I would suggest that each lich, based on who they are, would choose a shape, name and reference for their individual 'Soul Cage', and the term only be used as a generic reference.

Imagine, if you will, that the lich ytou're facing has a Waffle Iron of Soul Binding... how much flavour and stories can you great out of that?


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Was Soul hidey place taken?

The practice of things that could be called a phylactery are incredibly common across religions.

The ta'wiz, tawiz (Urdu: تعویز‎, Hindi: तावीज़),[1] muska (Turkish) or taʿwīdh (Arabic: تعويذ‎) for Islam,

japamala, jaap maala, or simply mala for Indian religions

Omamori for shinto...

(copying from a few different wiki articles)

The jewish specific phylactery would be Tefillin

Ascribing it to Judaism is like saying there's an antisemetic connotation to the world altar. (honestly whens the last time an adventurer dealt with an altar that didn't have more black obsidian, blood,skulls, demon horns and sacrifice victims on it than a heavy metal album cover?)

Soul cage sounds boring. If they could have cut jk rowling a check for horcrux that might have worked.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Was Soul hidey place taken?

The practice of things that could be called a phylactery are incredibly common across religions.

The ta'wiz, tawiz (Urdu: تعویز‎, Hindi: तावीज़),[1] muska (Turkish) or taʿwīdh (Arabic: تعويذ‎) for Islam,

japamala, jaap maala, or simply mala for Indian religions

Omamori for shinto...

(copying from a few different wiki articles)

The jewish specific phylactery would be Tefillin

Ascribing it to Judaism is like saying there's an antisemetic connotation to the world altar. (honestly whens the last time an adventurer dealt with an altar that didn't have more black obsidian, blood,skulls, demon horns and sacrifice victims on it than a heavy metal album cover?)

Soul cage sounds boring. If they could have cut jk rowling a check for horcrux that might have worked.

Cut jk a check? Uhh, that doesn't sound like the greatest of ideas considering that JK is far as I am aware transphobic, and given the recent going ons at Paizo that might not look good.

Silver Crusade

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“Ascribing it to Judaism is like saying there's an antisemetic connotation”

Intentionally snipped there because there was, look at the original art and text that Gygax used.


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Rysky wrote:

“Ascribing it to Judaism is like saying there's an antisemetic connotation”

Intentionally snipped there because there was, look at the original art and text that Gygax used.

...*sigh*

What a disappointment.


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Yoshua wrote:
Would have been smart to come up with a new word, fake word like Horcrux but anything is better than co opting people's religious artifiacts.

I think it using existing words instead of defining a new word is more interesting personally. Soul and Cage both have connotations that contribute to the tone of the device, before Harry Potter horcrux didn't and now it's connotations are defined by those books.

Soul is the immortal part of someone, the immaterial piece that is affected by moral decisions, that is with a person's body while they are alive and abandon it for an afterlife in death. Cage is something designed to lock something away against its will and protect people outside the cage from the thing kept within it.

The Lich creates a Soul Cage, they take their immortal and immaterial part of their self and force it in something that prevents it from leaving them and prevents it from reaching them. It fits very well with the image I have of Liches as being obsessed with immortality and afraid of permanent death, and suggests Lichdom is an abusive relationship between the Lich and their own soul, where the Lich doesn't value or trust their soul so they lock it in a cage where it can't hurt or leave them. Those two words imply a bleak and villainous view of the world and of life and death. It feels like a pretty evocative name. That's my read of it anyways.

EDIT: 100% agree about co opting religious artifacts being worse than either existing words or using new ones to be clear, I just prefer existing words to new words when those existing words in the context of something like soul cage v. horcrux


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TwilightKnight wrote:
They can rename it whatever they want, but after more than forty years, I'm perfectly comfortable continuing to call it a phylactery.

Agreed and seconded

Will they also change the name of the Witch class to Wiccan or whatever is the appropriate term. Or change the term of Demons and Devils to the AD&D 2E of Baateezu and Tanari since many maybe offended by it.


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Particular Jones wrote:
TwilightKnight wrote:
They can rename it whatever they want, but after more than forty years, I'm perfectly comfortable continuing to call it a phylactery.

Agreed and seconded

Will they also change the name of the Witch class to Wiccan or whatever is the appropriate term. Or change the term of Demons and Devils to the AD&D 2E of Baateezu and Tanari since many maybe offended by it.

Witchcraft and Wicca are both currently practicing forms of spirituality and are different things. A lot of Witches do not wish to be referred to as Wiccans, and vice versa. Wicca has a lot of very specific beliefs and practices (stuff like the threefold law for example) while witchcraft is more personal.


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Tender Tendrils wrote:
Witchcraft and Wicca are both currently practicing forms of spirituality and are different things. A lot of Witches do not wish to be referred to as Wiccans, and vice versa. Wicca has a lot of very specific beliefs and practices (stuff like the threefold law for example) while witchcraft is more personal.

Two semi-different things with lots of overlap. Plenty of people consider themselves both - or did when I was paying more attention to it.


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thejeff wrote:
Tender Tendrils wrote:
Witchcraft and Wicca are both currently practicing forms of spirituality and are different things. A lot of Witches do not wish to be referred to as Wiccans, and vice versa. Wicca has a lot of very specific beliefs and practices (stuff like the threefold law for example) while witchcraft is more personal.
Two semi-different things with lots of overlap. Plenty of people consider themselves both - or did when I was paying more attention to it.

This is one reason why I don't see the point in getting so uptight about exact word usage, the meaning is going to vary so much depending on the listener anyway. There isn't an agreed on set of terms for everthing, so if you think you have THE terms to use... its probably going to conflict with someone elses THE terms to use.

Grand Lodge

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David knott 242 wrote:

I just hope they don't mindlessly change certain magic items to a "Soul Cage of Faithfulness" or a "Soul Cage of Positive Channeling". The magic item phylacteries really should not be renamed.

Jason confirmed it on Facebook, don't worry.

Quote:
Other phlyacteries will not be changing. Those are fine uses that are rougly representative of the item.

Source.


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Tender Tendrils wrote:
Though, I do prefer "Soul Cubby" to "Soul Cage".

Soul Snuggie


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Andostre wrote:
Tender Tendrils wrote:
Though, I do prefer "Soul Cubby" to "Soul Cage".
Soul Snuggie

Great. Now I wanna see lich infomercials.


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Might as well remove Barbarian as in the Oxford dictionary it means “ (in ancient times) a member of a community or tribe not belonging to one of the great civilizations (Greek, Roman, Christian).
"the city was besieged by the barbarians" or sometimes used to describe primitive cultures.

Inquisitor is another given ho many crimes the Inquisition perpetrated vs anyone not of the correct religion.

Call me a cynic yet given the timing it comes off as an attempt to throw a smokescreen over the whole fact that Paizo has not addressed the doxxing and transphobia.

Say the right things and given that they voluntarily recognized the union and hopefully the majority of the fans move on and forget.

It seems to be working imo and I do not expect any of the above to be fixed. It’s not forgotten to be sure though given how the boards were in an uproar they seems to have quieted much since the union was recognized imo.


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FWIW, I /do/ want Barbarian to go away. I'm bummed that the class name made it into 2e intact, and would've greatly preferred Berserker or Bloodrager taken the slot.

Silver Crusade

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Same.

Also, I haven't forgotten a thing and the "update" thread is still being posted in.

Also also this sidebar was written and printed for the books long before any of this.


How many new posters have shown up in the Update thread requesting that something be done about the doxxing and transphobia.

It just seems to me at least it is the same ones over and over asking Paizo to give a definite answer to both.

So again it seems as an attempt to deflect from the real issues and hoping no one notices.

Silver Crusade

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"new posters" isn't a very good metric

"So again it seems as an attempt to deflect"

And again, this change was put in place and sent off to the printers long before any of this, so hanging on to this theory just deteriorates your post further.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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I mean...barbarian would be a good one to change, but that would probably need to wait until the next edition cycle.

Demons and devils have no reason to be renamed because those are depictions of mythological things that are traditionally evil anyway.

The lich's phylactery was taking a piece of Jewish tradition and tying it to a monster that was always evil, and which was evil in large part because of the item that was representative of Jewish lore.

There's a world of difference between using language with real-world connotations (like demons, angels, or witches) and tying a thing from a real world religion to a creature and ritual that is inherently evil.


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Charlie Brooks wrote:


The lich's phylactery was taking a piece of Jewish tradition and tying it to a monster that was always evil, and which was evil in large part because of the item that was representative of Jewish lore.

The word predates contact with Jews if not Judeism itself.

The idea is hardly unique to Judeism. (there's a list of similar things above, and the name was also applied to the boxes that kept the parts of saints in Christiniaty)

There's no apparently link between fantasy tabletop gamers and antisemitism. (Note: Individual anti semetic gamers does not establish such a link)

This looks like a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist.


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Particular Jones wrote:


Call me a cynic yet given the timing it comes off as an attempt to throw a smokescreen over the whole fact that Paizo has not addressed the doxxing and transphobia.

While I agree with the rest, the timing of this really doesn't seem to pan out. Given the large lead time it would take, especially to track down something accross multiple products in completely different product lines, this would have to go back further than anyone could have foreseen the current kerfuffle.

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