Grand Bazaar and the Saucy Wench.

[Rahveel]

Title probably gives you a hint as to my question. Been running a game set in Absalom for a little over a year, and Lady Kythes Finch/The Saucy Wench have come up fairly often. (Players are Forthright men)

Wiki describes it as being a four story building near the center of the Bazzar, but I see no buildings of that description on the map on pages 6-7.

Is there lore around it being removed, or was this an oversight by the authors?

[keftiu]

I imagine anything that isn’t a store is going to be in the imminent Absalom book.

[Rahveel]

Fair for it to not be mentioned, but a "four-story edifice near the center of the bazaar" should still be on the map, yeah?

[Rysky]

Pretty sure the cartographer was given the prompt “make a cool and colorful map with these specific shops standing out” and not “super detail everything”

[keftiu]

Rahveel wrote:

Fair for it to not be mentioned, but a "four-story edifice near the center of the bazaar" should still be on the map, yeah?

I don’t have the book - does this map depict anything other than the shops detailed in it? Because if not, then I think my theory above is probably right.

[Rysky]

Not really, there’s numerous tents and buildings but none have details like the shops listed so trying to point at one and say Is that [shop] is fruitless.

[Rahveel]

Rysky wrote:

there’s numerous tents and buildings but none have details like the shops listed

That's not true...

every shop on the map that's labeled matches the illustrations on their individual entries, or is very close to it. Dracori’s Sensory Emporium is maybe the only one a little off, and that could just be the angle of the illustration on pg 25.

keftiu wrote:

I don’t have the book - does this map depict anything other than the shops detailed in it? Because if not, then I think my theory above is probably right.

Yes, its a map of the full Bazaar, and a block-ish around it.

[Rysky]

Rahveel wrote:

Rysky wrote:

there’s numerous tents and buildings but none have details like the shops listed

That's not true...

every shop on the map that's labeled matches the illustrations on their individual entries, or is very close to it.

That's what I said.

All the listed shops are detailed.

[Tender Tendrils]

I just looked it up, it's basically hooters.

In 2021, our RPGs don't need a fantasy equivalent to hooters.

[Rahveel]

Off topic... but sure, if that's how you want to interpret the extremely limited information on it. Uniformed doesn't = hooters to me, but that's a reasonable interpretation of the intent.

Its also not necessarily problematic if people are all consenting adults, harassment isn't tolerated and workers are paid fair wages. Sex work isn't immoral or shameful.

But that's all derailing. Just asking about lore.

[Rysky]

"harassment isn't tolerated and workers are paid fair wages."

If that part was true I don't think many people would have an issue with Hooters.

Sex work runs the gamut but there's a difference between something sultry and a place where women are treated as fetishized pieces of trash, Hooters (and associated establishments) kinda have their reputation for a reason.

[Tender Tendrils]

My statement about it wasn't off topic - it is a possible reason it might not have made the cut.

[Tender Tendrils]

It is all relevant because if it was left out for being something that hasn't aged well, there won't be a lore explanation - when they cut stuff for being inappropriate that stuff doesn't just become something that existed in the past but got closed down or died or whatever, it becomes retconned so that it never existed from an in universe perspective.

So to rephrase my answer to be more direct to your question - my best guess until we get official clarification (which is unlikely to ever happen) is that in the lore, the saucy wench doesn't exist and never existed.

[Rahveel]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

It is all relevant because if it was left out for being something that hasn't aged well, there won't be a lore explanation - when they cut stuff for being inappropriate that stuff doesn't just become something that existed in the past but got closed down or died or whatever, it becomes retconned so that it never existed from an in universe perspective.

So to rephrase my answer to be more direct to your question - my best guess until we get official clarification (which is unlikely to ever happen) is that in the lore, the saucy wench doesn't exist and never existed.

A little annoying for games where it is an established element, but I understand what you mean.

[Irrelevant because its not cannon, but] For my game the saucy wench is a major location in the story, so I immediately noticed it was missing from the map.

(Its definitely not hooters, its the business front where the Token Guard and Lady Finch to do a lot of their money laundering for their corrupt earnings, making it more bother to prove than the council can be bothered to crack down on. The Female employees there are the trusted eyes of the building when Lady Finch isn't around, and act as the go-betweens on deals between the Forthright men and the Token guard. More like a Mob hideout.)

Yeah, its my game I can run as I like/include what I like, I just try hard to keep it all cannon-friendly. The removal of a major power player's base (or lack of it on official maps that *should * have it) is what it is, I was just concerned I'd messed up with my world-building research and missed something canonical.

[Ruzza]

Real answer, by the way. Pathfinder books are written by many different people not just "Pathfinder Greg, Lord of Lore." While something like Starstone Isle will have a lot of detail and be consistently referenced, a store that was featured once 13 years ago will be difficult for many authors to keep track of, especially if they write for multiple worlds.

Also of note, I'm pretty sure the map in The Grand Bazaar is not the whole of the Coins District.

[Temperans]

I am pretty sure that there is a person on the team that has been track of all Absalom lore. I swear they commented about it at some point in the last couple of years.

Or maybe it was another city?

[Malk_Content]

There is a big ole book all about Absalom coming up soon, with more on npc power players, plot hooks etc. Wait and see if its in that before worrying.

[Shirren_Human_Expert]

And here I thought someone was referring to me with this title *ba dum tiss*

I can easily see them trying to give the players a cleaner baseline to work with and then if you so choose you can add in such things yourself (really you can ALWAYS do this, no one at Paizo is forcing you to play it like this). It integrates well into their focus on consent based gaming. They provide you with the clean family friendly version and based on your group you are allowed to Saucy it up to your liking.

[The Raven Black]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

It is all relevant because if it was left out for being something that hasn't aged well, there won't be a lore explanation - when they cut stuff for being inappropriate that stuff doesn't just become something that existed in the past but got closed down or died or whatever, it becomes retconned so that it never existed from an in universe perspective.

So to rephrase my answer to be more direct to your question - my best guess until we get official clarification (which is unlikely to ever happen) is that in the lore, the saucy wench doesn't exist and never existed.

AFAIK, this is pretty much the exact opposite of how Paizo manages the setting continuity. They do not retcon. They clarify past writing mistakes (Erastil's misogyny for example) and let things that offended be forgotten (that fellow and his obediences).

[Temperans]

The Raven Black wrote:

Tender Tendrils wrote:

It is all relevant because if it was left out for being something that hasn't aged well, there won't be a lore explanation - when they cut stuff for being inappropriate that stuff doesn't just become something that existed in the past but got closed down or died or whatever, it becomes retconned so that it never existed from an in universe perspective.

So to rephrase my answer to be more direct to your question - my best guess until we get official clarification (which is unlikely to ever happen) is that in the lore, the saucy wench doesn't exist and never existed.

AFAIK, this is pretty much the exact opposite of how Paizo manages the setting continuity. They do not retcon. They clarify past writing mistakes (Erastil's misogyny for example) and let things that offended be forgotten (that fellow and his obediences).

Yep clarify things, give an update on the situation, or change the description to be more fitting. I have never seen a retcon, even for the really jarring stuff.

Example of typical changes: Goblins.

[Tonya Woldridge]

Removed posts that took a side tangent as well as some arguing between posters. If you don't like what a poster types, please just skip and move on or flag if it breaks the community standards. Thanks for helping out the moderation team!

[Sanityfaerie]

Temperans wrote:

Yep clarify things, give an update on the situation, or change the description to be more fitting. I have never seen a retcon, even for the really jarring stuff.

Example of typical changes: Goblins.

So there you go. It's been a few years.

Maybe the place closed.

If the closing in question was in some way adventurer-related, it might have been closed so thoroughly that it wasn't worth rebuilding the structure, and they cleared it to make space (and possibly grabbed the still-usable building materials for use elsewhere).

Sure, it might be nice to have that in something like an explicit update, but this apparently wasn't all that significant an institution overall. Some stuff is bound to slip through the cracks.

[YawarFiesta]

I thought it was well established that Golarion had "dance halls". I don't think something ambiguous enough to go from Maid Pirate Cafe to Hooters is out of the norm.

Then again, one wouldn't be blamed to asume that Paizo received a stern from Ingsoc's Junior Anti Sex League between editions.

Humbly,
Yawar

[James Jacobs]

Time for a peek inside of the word mines!

One of the things we did when building the enormous several-hundred-page-long beast that is the upcoming Absalom book was to take advantage of the opportunity to make adjustments along the way. Among those adjustments are some shifts to where some canonical locations are located.

In this case, we shifted the Saucy Wench out of the actual Grand Bazaar for a few reasons. At first, when we got in the final version of the full-scale map of the Grand Bazaar, it looked great but since the book's contents itself focused completely on the Bazaar shops and not any free-standing buildings, the Saucy Wench itself got left off the map. We loved how the map looked though—this was a case where "words we write sound good, but when the illustration of the scene comes in it looks better if we change some of the words." This got us thinking about the building's location, and so we moved it just out of the Bazaar so the visual of it wouldn't be super distracting and overwhelming to the whole point of the sprawling market.

And so we just moved the Saucy Wench to the eastern side of the Grand Bazaar so that the Bazaar itself would have it's own entry in the Absalom book and the Saucy Wench would have it's own entry in the same book... rather than have to cobble them together into one number tag, and rather than have to devote a section of this book to something that wasn't "on topic" (a smaller weird shop in a larger bazaar).

And then the Absalom book grew and grew and got itself delayed more and more, so that relatively minor geographical adjustment ended up looking like we cut it from the city when this book ended up coming out first.

Sorry about the confusion!

SIDE NOTE: This giant Absalom book is amazing, and I can't wait for folks to check it out. SO much cool stuff in there, and even at its size it only just scratches the surface!

BONUS SIDE NOTE: I'd be lying if I said that figuring out how to present details on the Saucy Wench in a book where EVERY OTHER ENTRY includes lots of examples of things you can buy or get for your character on top of showing off some fun flavor didn't factor into the decision. AKA: The Saucy Wench wasn't appropriate content for this book anyway, but it fits in quite well in the larger book that focuses much more on the lore and flavor of Absalom, rather than "things your PC can buy." ;-)

[Shirren_Human_Expert]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Yep clarify things, give an update on the situation, or change the description to be more fitting. I have never seen a retcon, even for the really jarring stuff.

Example of typical changes: Goblins.

So there you go. It's been a few years.

Maybe the place closed.

If the closing in question was in some way adventurer-related, it might have been closed so thoroughly that it wasn't worth rebuilding the structure, and they cleared it to make space (and possibly grabbed the still-usable building materials for use elsewhere).

Sure, it might be nice to have that in something like an explicit update, but this apparently wasn't all that significant an institution overall. Some stuff is bound to slip through the cracks.

In my games an "adventurer related closure" typically meant that the place was burned down by my players. OFTEN. After a while my regular group of players called themselves The Bar Burners Guild and now its quite the tradition that I hate. Its already been addressed what happened to the Wench but I think "an adventurer group trashed it" is going to have to become a new go to after "a wizard did it"

[Sanityfaerie]

keftiu wrote:

I imagine anything that isn’t a store is going to be in the imminent Absalom book.

Quoted for having absolutely called it.

[Temperans]

Thank you for the explanation James. I can see how a 4 story hall could be too imposing in the middle of a Bazaar. I though that was the point, but then the actual art and layout might just not work.

I honestly though it was an Ocktober Fest type situation. Where someone had made the building and it just stuck permanently to not bother disassembling it. It moving to a full permanent location in the edge of the Bazaar since the last time it was mentioned in a book would make a lot of sense.