"Do whatever you want / Kill foes in whatever way you want"-style suggestions.


Rules Questions


Hello,

we are about to engage in an very epic campaign featuring champions from many different planes in a fight for the future of the multiverse against the vile Qlippoth hordes.

One of them being my charming self as a Succubus.

As such, I have a regrettfully not grapple centric (I do not intend to be grappling Qlippoths, thank you very much no Hentai here) and thus only mildly naughty rules question:

If I use suggestion on one of my allies, and implant him with the suggestion to "Do whatever you want / Kill Qlippoths in whatever way he deems appropriate".
In a more generic setting, it could be "Kill Crusaders in whatever way you deem appropriate".

RAW: The character is now under a mind controlling effect from me (assuming he opts to fail the safe, or simply does not make the safe because my DCs are kind of high and the suggestion is very reasonable) for CL level hours. Any new mind effecting (which would presumably include fear etc. effects?) thing, which would stop them from doing that would thus essentially be a competing mind controll thing and would have to roll contested charisma vs my charming mythic Succubus self (tehe, good luck with that tentaclefaces!)?

Could a more normal Succubus NPC (my char in question is also a Mysterious stranger 7/trickster 6, but using suggestion in this manner is something all Succubi can/could do) use this on her cohorts/goons to protect them against Will based crowd control spells?

Alternatively, could for example a heroic bard use suggestion, or suggestion mass on his/her allies in such a way?

I dont think I am actually going to do that, because I would be tearing my hair out if I had to GM against this, but the rules question is I think valid.


Liliyashanina wrote:


...roll contested charisma...

Are there actually rules for contested charisma when multiple mind-effecting spells are in play? I don't recall any such rules. So either I'm not aware of them, or they are a house rule your group has played with. If you can point to such rules on AoN or the d20srd I can offer an opinion from there.

If there are no such rules, then of course it would come down to ask your GM. Personally in such a case I would probably have the highest spell level take precedence (similar to how higher level light/darkness spells win). And/or determine based on how much control the spell offers. Dominate spells would give more control over a creature than say suggestion. So dominate wins.


Rulebook posted:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Combining-Magic-Effects

Multiple Mental Control Effects

Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject’s ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.


If I were the GM I would generally make the ruling that suggestion (per the spell) is typically going to be too broad to do anything of use against more specific mind control.

The rules say (that you quoted) that the creature tries to obey each to the best of its ability and only when receiving simultaneous conflicting orders do they make a charisma check.

The other player isn't receiving simultaneous conflicting orders.

If you want to protect your friend just get a constant source of protection from evil on him.

Protection from Evil wrote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

I forget the trick because it's been too long, but I recall there being some item that everyone carried around (meta on the board here) with them that provided continuous protection from evil effect.


Found the item, it was a pre-errata clear spindle ioun stone with resonant power from a Wayfinder.

The post errata power doesn't work nearly as well, as it only allows the wearer to cast PoE and burn out the ioun stone.

You might try to convince your GM to allow for a casting or permanency with Protection from Evil. It could be disspelled, but still a better plan.

Find a way to cast protection from evil several times per day would also work well.

Liberty's Edge

An alternate "magic item" to protect you: the body of the paladin that did cast Magic circle against evil on himself and was then killed.
After being dominated by a vampire I had to lug it around for half of a dungeon to suppress the effect of the domination. :-D

Suggestion don't establish mental control. If the target fails the save, he tries to do it, but that doesn't force him to go against his self-preservation instinct.
Crippling fear will still be crippling.
Being dominated make whatever you want to do irrelevant.
Plus, suggestion is not issuing commands every round, it is a suggestion that stays active. The rule you cite works when the subject "receives conflicting orders simultaneously".


If you think you're going to be "flipping" your allies due to competing Mind Control effects on a consistent basis, you might consider Hollow Heroism.

It has No Save when you flip it, so you can buff their saves to give them a better chance to resist mind control effects, and then if he fails a save, you flip it to debuff their saves to allow your allies a better chance to CC him until you can dispel the mind effect.

If you're allowed 3pp Psionic classes, you could consider Psychic Bodyguard on your ally with the lowest Will save.

I think the best option is Protection from Chaos/Evil though. But your GM is going to dispel that the first chance he gets, so prep multiple Protection spells or get a bunch of scrolls so you can reapply after each fight.

As far as your original Suggestion on allies to force opposed Cha rolls, that would definitely work as well. Tbh, I think you should have multiple layers of protection against mind control, and this would be a good method of protection as well.


I think a reasonable way is that I can make a suggestion on an ally who failed a will save (then he would be receiving nearly simultaneous suggestions) to overcome what is afflicting him.
A dominated/possessed ally would not be able to take a 1 on that (domination forcing him to attempt to resist), a panicked ally may be able to take a 1.

This does cost my standard action for the turn, so it is not insane.

It is still cool, most Qlippoths do not care much about mind effecting abilties, but mine would still give me the ability to provide another way of fixing mental conditions.


Mind-Buttressing Armor sounds like it will be useful for your allies.


Willuwontu that is a legit suggestion. Expensive potentially, but worth it if the character is really worried about being controlled.

I still want to reiterate that I don't think suggestion, even if cast after a dominate effect, while cause a conflict. What you're allowed to suggest with the Suggestion spell is just too broad in my opinion, to cause the conflict clause to function.

Of course, check with your DM to be sure. But what I'm saying is, don't count on it to work.


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Thanks for the rules reference. I learned something new today.

One part in particular in the rules tands out to me

Quote:


...it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows

That's going to be very dependent on the exact nature of the instructions given. If a suggestion is "kill X however you like" vs another suggestion of "don't kill X", then you get the cha face off.

But if the instructions are suggestion "kill X however you like" vs dominate "kill Y right now", the x however you like doesn't really conflict. Once you are done killing Y you could get around to killing X, you know, when its conveniant.

Dominate vs dominate becomes more interesting, because dominate contains the phrase "to the exclusion of all else". So two different dominate commands are likely to always conflict, as you can't do one (excluding the other) without a conflict. But if one is "kill X", and the other is "cast all your spells", then they don't conflict (unless you only have healing spells). Casting all your buff spells on yourself is a part of getting to kill X.

I would not conider your very open ended suggestion of "Do whatever you want" binding/conflicting in any way (so a useless suggestion in that regard). "Kill Qlippoths in whatever way he deems appropriate" isn't much better in terms of how binding I personally would find it. But again I would need to know what the other command was to determine if an actual conflict existed.


bbangerter, that was a much more eloquent way of explaining what I was trying to get at. Thank you for that.


I dont think I will use this as a PC in the adventure we will be doing (dont do things to your GM that you would not want to have done to you), but if I GM I can definitly see a Succubus NPC using something like "Dont be intimidated by the vile heroes! Think of me and fight back!" as something she will be doing to make her goons better.

Liberty's Edge

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Liliyashanina wrote:
I dont think I will use this as a PC in the adventure we will be doing (dont do things to your GM that you would not want to have done to you), but if I GM I can definitly see a Succubus NPC using something like "Dont be intimidated by the vile heroes! Think of me and fight back!" as something she will be doing to make her goons better.

It is one of the famous songs of succubi bards: "If you win, I will ...."

More than a suggestion it sounds the opposite of Intimidate. Works very well with the right people. A pity it doesn't exist as a skill or feat.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Liliyashanina wrote:
I dont think I will use this as a PC in the adventure we will be doing (dont do things to your GM that you would not want to have done to you), but if I GM I can definitly see a Succubus NPC using something like "Dont be intimidated by the vile heroes! Think of me and fight back!" as something she will be doing to make her goons better.

It is one of the famous songs of succubi bards: "If you win, I will ...."

More than a suggestion it sounds the opposite of Intimidate. Works very well with the right people. A pity it doesn't exist as a skill or feat.

I think you just hit upon the means by which succubi bards inspire courage and heroics actually :)

Liberty's Edge

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Lathiira wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Liliyashanina wrote:
I dont think I will use this as a PC in the adventure we will be doing (dont do things to your GM that you would not want to have done to you), but if I GM I can definitly see a Succubus NPC using something like "Dont be intimidated by the vile heroes! Think of me and fight back!" as something she will be doing to make her goons better.

It is one of the famous songs of succubi bards: "If you win, I will ...."

More than a suggestion it sounds the opposite of Intimidate. Works very well with the right people. A pity it doesn't exist as a skill or feat.

I think you just hit upon the means by which succubi bards inspire courage and heroics actually :)

The first part has been used in the less politically correct moments when playing, and it works ;-)

While playing with the 3.5 rules we had a CN half-fiend character that was a half succubus and a bard.

The second part was about wishing to be able to use it without the need to be a bard. AS motivate, the skill use opposite to intimidate.

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