Feather Step does nothing on its own?


Rules Discussion


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After playing 2e pretty much since release, I can't believe I'm just now noticing this. Without being able to Step at least 10 feet, Feather Step actually doesn't do anything.

Quote:
You step carefully and quickly. You can Step into difficult terrain.

It only removes the limitation on being able to Step into difficult terrain, it critically doesn't change the movement cost associated with it. And since it costs 10 feet of movement to go into a square of difficult terrain... you need another feat for it to actually do anything.

Now the big question is - is that really intended? My group, every live play I've seen and every discussion I've read seems to have never considered that isn't actually "when you Step, it doesn't matter if the square is difficult terrain". A feat without a feat prerequisite that does noting without another feat also seems really strange.

Thoughts? Errata?


I think it does change the required movement from 10 ( difficult terrain ) to 5 ( step ).

Or else feats like "elven step" wouldn't work in this given system.


HumbleGamer wrote:

I think it does change the required movement from 10 ( difficult terrain ) to 5 ( step ).

Or else feats like "elven step" wouldn't work in this given system.

That's almost certainly the intent, but that isn't what the feat actually says, at least not in the context of the rest of the system. A feat that does that would have to state "You can Step into difficult terrain and ignore the additional movement cost when doing so" or something to that effect.

And yes, if we take the feat RAW, it wouldn't actually interact with Elf Step. You would need Tiger Stance or similar feats.


But since either tiger stance and elastic mutagen ( the only ones I know in this 2e ) would be the exceptions, and that having to consider that step actions would take twice the movement to step into difficult terrain when a character do rather than ( I can step / I can't step ), I say it's pretty obvious that RAI kicks in here.

What are the odds that they made a general feat with the intention of te be only used by character under the effect of a specific monk stance or a specific alchemical elixir ( with a specific lvl 10 alchemist feat )?

An Errata may come, but I think it's not required.

But let's wait for some other reply.


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Specific trumps general. It says you can step into difficult terrain, period. It doesn't mention movement cost because it doesn't have to.


HumbleGamer wrote:

But since either tiger stance and elastic mutagen ( the only ones I know in this 2e ) would be the exceptions, and that having to consider that step actions would take twice the movement to step into difficult terrain when a character do rather than ( I can step / I can't step ), I say it's pretty obvious that RAI kicks in here.

What are the odds that they made a general feat with the intention of te be only used by character under the effect of a specific monk stance or a specific alchemical elixir ( with a specific lvl 10 alchemist feat )?

An Errata may come, but I think it's not required.

But let's wait for some other reply.

Yeah, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. It is certainly possible that this is just extreme future proofing for a supposedly substantial number of feats that allow you to step 10 feet. Given that it has apparently taken over 2 years for someone to even entertain the idea in a forum, though, that seems rather unlikely.


Albatoonoe wrote:
Specific trumps general. It says you can step into difficult terrain, period. It doesn't mention movement cost because it doesn't have to.

The problem with that is that those are two entirely separate rules. "You can't Step into difficult terrain" and "Moving into a square of difficult terrain costs an extra 5 feet of movement". The feat is only specific in regards to the first rule, so "specific beats general" holds no weight here.


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Karmagator wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:
Specific trumps general. It says you can step into difficult terrain, period. It doesn't mention movement cost because it doesn't have to.
The problem with that is that those are two entirely separate rules. "You can't Step into difficult terrain" and "Moving into a square of difficult terrain costs an extra 5 feet of movement". The feat is only specific in regards to the first rule, so "specific beats general" holds no weight here.

I disagree. It says "you can step into difficult terrain" and not "remove the restriction on stepping into difficult terrain". It says you can do the action, therefore you can do it.


Albatoonoe wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:
Specific trumps general. It says you can step into difficult terrain, period. It doesn't mention movement cost because it doesn't have to.
The problem with that is that those are two entirely separate rules. "You can't Step into difficult terrain" and "Moving into a square of difficult terrain costs an extra 5 feet of movement". The feat is only specific in regards to the first rule, so "specific beats general" holds no weight here.
I disagree. It says "you can step into difficult terrain" and not "remove the restriction on stepping into difficult terrain". It says you can do the action, therefore you can do it.

With that exact same line of reasoning you could also justify being able to Step into difficult terrain while being immobilized. "This ability says I can step into difficult terrain and there is difficult terrain right there". Both the immobilized condition and the rule about the additional movement cost are fully separate rules from the rule this explicitly deals with.

Rules in 2e explicitly say when they are modifying other rules. If something doesn't explicitly modify a rule, it usually doesn't. And this feat explicitly modifies the "You can't step into difficult terrain" rule, by stating the exact opposite. It doesn't address the other rule with a single word, which any other feat would do.

There is a good argument to be made that it is intended to do more than that - see above - but not by using the literal wording.


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"Rules in 2e explicitly say when they are modifying other rules."
-Citation needed
Not examples, those exist, but an overarching statement by Paizo to this effect. Though they've introduced a lot of mechanical vernacular, PF2 also uses a lot of casual, straightforward language. You're bending over backward to make something not work that obviously should work, something the ability specifically says your PC can do in the context of difficult terrain.
Though you're arguing, there's no real argument here.

And also note that in PF2, RAW itself states that RAW is not king.


Castilliano wrote:

"Rules in 2e explicitly say when they are modifying other rules."

-Citation needed
Not examples, those exist, but an overarching statement by Paizo to this effect. Though they've introduced a lot of mechanical vernacular, PF2 also uses a lot of casual, straightforward language. You're bending over backward to make something not work that obviously should work, something the ability specifically says your PC can do in the context of difficult terrain.
Though you're arguing, there's no real argument here.

And also note that in PF2, RAW itself states that RAW is not king.

Do we really need a quote for such a thing, when we have such an amount of examples? I don't think so. This system clearly operates on a semi-legalese "rule ->exception" basis. Whenever a feat breaks a rule it says so and as you pointed out there are numerous examples for that. So many that it can't be called anything but systemic.

And while this seems like a rather obvious assumption, we have made "obvious" assumptions before. The best example is the fact that everyone was treating combat manoeuvres as attack rolls instead of athletics checks. My point with this is to check if we haven't made a massive mistake in assuming the RAI, when the absolute literal RAW was correct after all.


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I don't think the "movement cost" applies to Step, since the Step action isn't based on movement speed except for requiring that you have at least 10 feet of speed. My understanding is that the feat simply gives you the ability to essentially ignore difficult terrain when it comes to the Step action.


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JackieLane wrote:
I don't think the "movement cost" applies to Step, since the Step action isn't based on movement speed except for requiring that you have at least 10 feet of speed. My understanding is that the feat simply gives you the ability to essentially ignore difficult terrain when it comes to the Step action.

I don't follow. A Step is a movement action that lets you move 5 feet. How isn't it based on movement? Because difficult terrain doesn't differentiate between movement types, except ones - usually flying - that physically don't interact with it.


JackieLane wrote:
I don't think the "movement cost" applies to Step, since the Step action isn't based on movement speed except for requiring that you have at least 10 feet of speed. My understanding is that the feat simply gives you the ability to essentially ignore difficult terrain when it comes to the Step action.

Yeah, movement cost only applies to Stride and other modes of movement. A Step just moves you five feet.


GM OfAnything wrote:
Yeah, movement cost only applies to Stride and other modes of movement. A Step just moves you five feet.

This on the other hand is just false.

"Moving into a square of difficult terrain (or moving 5 feet into or within an area of difficult terrain, if you’re not using a grid) costs an extra 5 feet of movement."

Nothing here says anything about a specific movement type, meaning it affects all types of movement (except negative examples later on, which explicitly say that they aren't affected). Steps are just another movement action, they aren't magically different.


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GM OfAnything wrote:
JackieLane wrote:
I don't think the "movement cost" applies to Step, since the Step action isn't based on movement speed except for requiring that you have at least 10 feet of speed. My understanding is that the feat simply gives you the ability to essentially ignore difficult terrain when it comes to the Step action.
Yeah, movement cost only applies to Stride and other modes of movement. A Step just moves you five feet.

JackieLane and GM OfAnything are right, except that the writing in the Step action messes up the exception it uses.

Page 473 in the PF2 Core Rulebook, under Movement in Encounters says,

Core Rulebook, Playing the Game chapter, Movement in Encounters, page 473 wrote:
When the rules refer to a “movement cost” or “spending movement,” they are describing how many feet of your Speed you must use to move from one point to another. Normally, movement costs 5 feet per square when you’re moving on a grid, or it costs the number of feet you move if you’re not using a grid. However, sometimes it’s harder to move a certain distance due to difficult terrain (page 475) or other factors. In such a case, you might have to spend a different amount of movement to move from one place to another. For example, a form of movement might require 10 feet of movement to move 1 square, and moving through some types of terrain costs an extra 5 feet of movement per square.

The Step action does not refer to movement cost nor spending movement, so it could be an exception. However, the Step action refers to Speed:

Core Rulebook, Playing the Game chapter, Basic Actions, page 471 wrote:

Step [Single-Action]

Move
Requirements Your Speed is at least 10 feet.
You carefully move 5 feet. Unlike most types of movement, Stepping doesn't trigger reactions, such as Attacks of Opportunity, that can be triggered by move actions or upon leaving or entering a square.

You can't Step into difficult terrain, and you can't Step using a Speed other than your land Speed.

At first Step was set up for an exception to movement cost because it had no mention of movement cost beyond the requirement, which is separate from the effect. Then the last sentence explicity mentioned land Speed, invoking the movement costs of land Speed. Oops. Thus, Step became a form of land movement subject to all restrictions of land Speed, such as not Stepping while airborne.

Fortunately, land Speed allows spending the full 25 feet (for humans) of a land Speed, even though the character is moving only 5 feet. Thus, the character with a special ability to Step onto difficult terrain can use 10 feet of land Speed movement to Step 5 feet.

In summary, the movement distance of Step is 5 feet but the movement cost allowed in a Step is the full land Speed, such as 25 feet for humans and 30 feet for elves.

Sczarni

Agree with the others.

The main restriction when using Step is "You can't Step into difficult terrain", and Feather Step removes that restriction.


Mathmuse wrote:
GM OfAnything wrote:
JackieLane wrote:
I don't think the "movement cost" applies to Step, since the Step action isn't based on movement speed except for requiring that you have at least 10 feet of speed. My understanding is that the feat simply gives you the ability to essentially ignore difficult terrain when it comes to the Step action.
Yeah, movement cost only applies to Stride and other modes of movement. A Step just moves you five feet.
JackieLane and GM OfAnything are right, except that the writing in the Step action messes up the exception it uses.[...]

I think you are making this way more complicated than it actually is. Because this is the Stride action:

Quote:
You move up to your Speed (page 463).

This doesn't mention movement cost or spending movement either. Granted, the "Speed" rule paragraph sort of does, but not the action itself. Climb doesn't mention it, neither does Burrow. Fly on the other hand does.

That is because they are all - including Step - the same category of action. Actions with the move trait aka move actions. And they all follow the same rules, barring Fly (which isn't relevant here). One of these rules, as you pointed out, is this one:

"Normally, movement costs 5 feet per square when you’re moving on a grid [...]"

That is the rule. By default, any movement - regardless of movement type - from one square to another costs 5 feet. That doesn't change unless modified by feats or (greater) difficult terrain.

Step is a move action that explicitly lets you move 5 feet. Not 10, not "up to your land Speed, but a maximum of 5 in reality". It is 5 feet, period. Any movement action into difficult terrain costs 10 feet of movement. I can see how you got there, but that really is just a few creative interpretations too far. Referring to your land Speed doesn't change the above rule, nor your movement budget - you have 5 feet, meaning one square that isn't difficult terrain.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I mean, if you don't want Feather Step to work in your home games you can just say so.


Squiggit wrote:
I mean, if you don't want Feather Step to work in your home games you can just say so.

When we noticed this problem we immediately went "nope" and ruled it as is most likely the RAI, i.e. like everyone else does. Just because I think the way people get to that conclusion is wrong, doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong. But again, the community has made several assumptions before that turned out to be wrong. Or I could have completely misinterpreted the general consensus and people were using the other variant after all, you never know. Hence this post to make sure.


Squiggit wrote:
I mean, if you don't want Feather Step to work in your home games you can just say so.

That was my thought too.

The RAI is clear enough.

The argument that it doesn't work RAW is questionable.

The statement in Step that says you can only Step using your land speed is talking about movement types. You can't step using a climb speed or a swim speed. You certainly can't Step while climbing or swimming without a climb or swim speed.

It doesn't matter what your land speed is when calculating how far you can step. Unlike things like your Sneak distance which is based on your land speed.

So Step by default says that you move 5 feet, don't provoke reactions, and can't move into difficult terrain.

Feather Step removes that last restriction. Leaving: you move 5 feet, and don't provoke reactions.

And you still can't use a swim speed or climb speed or other types of movement that you have a speed for when using Step.

Looks to me like Feather Step works just fine.


breithauptclan wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
I mean, if you don't want Feather Step to work in your home games you can just say so.

That was my thought too.

The RAI is clear enough.

The argument that it doesn't work RAW is questionable.

The statement in Step that says you can only Step using your land speed is talking about movement types. You can't step using a climb speed or a swim speed. You certainly can't Step while climbing or swimming without a climb or swim speed.

It doesn't matter what your land speed is when calculating how far you can step. Unlike things like your Sneak distance which is based on your land speed.

So Step by default says that you move 5 feet, don't provoke reactions, and can't move into difficult terrain.

Feather Step removes that last restriction. Leaving: you move 5 feet, and don't provoke reactions.

And you still can't use a swim speed or climb speed or other types of movement that you have a speed for when using Step.

Looks to me like Feather Step works just fine.

Wait, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me - or at least my originally presented possible alternative interpretation? Because "Feather Step removes that last restriction. Leaving: you move 5 feet, and don't provoke reactions." sounds like you agree, as that would leave you unable to move into difficult terrain without being able to step 10 feet or more. But the first part of your answer heavily indicated that you don't agree with that, which leaves me a bit confused XD


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I am reading through the whole threat and honestly Karmagator I am not sure that I understand where the problem lies.

So lets try to go over it once more slowly.

Step

1. Requires you to have 10 feet of movement speed to be able to do it.

2. You can only use step with your landspeed. That means that you have to 'walk' or 'make steps' to use step. No flying, no swimming, no climbing

3. Step moves you 5 feet. How much movement you have is irrelevant.

3.1. Some feats enable you to make 10 foot steps. Your actual movement is still irrelevant. This point irrelevant for everything following it.

4. Step does not Trigger reactions.

5. You can NOT step into difficult terrain.

6. If you have feather step you ignore 5.


Karmagator wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
GM OfAnything wrote:
JackieLane wrote:
I don't think the "movement cost" applies to Step, since the Step action isn't based on movement speed except for requiring that you have at least 10 feet of speed. My understanding is that the feat simply gives you the ability to essentially ignore difficult terrain when it comes to the Step action.
Yeah, movement cost only applies to Stride and other modes of movement. A Step just moves you five feet.
JackieLane and GM OfAnything are right, except that the writing in the Step action messes up the exception it uses.[...]

I think you are making this way more complicated than it actually is. Because this is the Stride action:

Quote:
You move up to your Speed (page 463).
This doesn't mention movement cost or spending movement either. Granted, the "Speed" rule paragraph sort of does, but not the action itself. Climb doesn't mention it, neither does Burrow. Fly on the other hand does.

Yes, I do like diving into the complexities of design and I tend to over-explain afterwards.

The wording of Stride says "up to your Speed." That means that it counts either movement distance or movement cost. Movement in Encounters on age 473 makes clear that movement cost is the default.

Karmagator wrote:

That is because they are all - including Step - the same category of action. Actions with the move trait aka move actions. And they all follow the same rules, barring Fly (which isn't relevant here). One of these rules, as you pointed out, is this one:

"Normally, movement costs 5 feet per square when you’re moving on a grid [...]"

That is the rule. By default, any movement - regardless of movement type - from one square to another costs 5 feet. That doesn't change unless modified by feats or (greater) difficult terrain.

The glossary-and-index says on page 634, "move (trait) An action with this trait involves moving from one space to another. 474" Page 474 mentions tha Move trait only in the section Move Actions That Trigger Reactions. The Move trait does not necessarily require movement to another square, since the Stand action, "You stand up from prone," has the Move trait. Hm, we have a slight contradiction between the glossary's definition of Move trait and Stand having the Move trait. Well, glossary definitions don't have to be exact.

Neither definition says that an action with the Move trait has to use movement cost. However, this is a side issue, because Step does use movement cost.

Karmagator wrote:
Step is a move action that explicitly lets you move 5 feet. Not 10, not "up to your land Speed, but a maximum of 5 in reality". It is 5 feet, period. Any movement action into difficult terrain costs 10 feet of movement. I can see how you got there, but that really is just a few creative interpretations too far. Referring to your land Speed doesn't change the above rule, nor your movement budget - you have 5 feet, meaning one square that isn't difficult terrain.

My argument is that Step uses full land Speed for movement cost, but has a second restriction limiting a Step to 5-feet of movement distance. The Step action does not grant the creature a "Step Speed" of 5 feet. Instead it says to use the land Speed. Stepping onto an adjacent square of easy terrain moves through 5 feet of distance and requires 5 feet of land Speed. Stepping onto difficult terrain, when allowed, requires 10 feet of land Speed even though the creature's total movement distance is only 5 feet. If a monk has the abilities to Step 10 feet (Tiger Stance) and can Step onto difficult terrain (Feather Step), then Stepping 10 feet across two squares of difficult terrain would require 20 feet of land Speed.


Seisho wrote:

I am reading through the whole threat and honestly Karmagator I am not sure that I understand where the problem lies.

So lets try to go over it once more slowly.

Step

1. Requires you to have 10 feet of movement speed to be able to do it.

2. You can only use step with your landspeed. That means that you have to 'walk' or 'make steps' to use step. No flying, no swimming, no climbing

3. Step moves you 5 feet. How much movement you have is irrelevant.

3.1. Some feats enable you to make 10 foot steps. Your actual movement is still irrelevant. This point irrelevant for everything following it.

4. Step does not Trigger reactions.

5. You can NOT step into difficult terrain.

6. If you have feather step you ignore 5.

Basically, does Feather Step allow you to Step into difficult terrain in the sense that you also ignore the "moving into difficult terrain cost 10ft of movement" rule, as you can only move 5. Or does it just ignore the "You can't Step into difficult terrain" rule? Because if the latter is true, then Feather Step is useless on its own.


Mathmuse wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
GM OfAnything wrote:
JackieLane wrote:
I don't think the "movement cost" applies to Step, since the Step action isn't based on movement speed except for requiring that you have at least 10 feet of speed. My understanding is that the feat simply gives you the ability to essentially ignore difficult terrain when it comes to the Step action.
Yeah, movement cost only applies to Stride and other modes of movement. A Step just moves you five feet.
JackieLane and GM OfAnything are right, except that the writing in the Step action messes up the exception it uses.[...]

I think you are making this way more complicated than it actually is. Because this is the Stride action:

Quote:
You move up to your Speed (page 463).
This doesn't mention movement cost or spending movement either. Granted, the "Speed" rule paragraph sort of does, but not the action itself. Climb doesn't mention it, neither does Burrow. Fly on the other hand does.

Yes, I do like diving into the complexities of design and I tend to over-explain afterwards.

The wording of Stride says "up to your Speed." That means that it counts either movement distance or movement cost. Movement in Encounters on age 473 makes clear that movement cost is the default.

Karmagator wrote:

That is because they are all - including Step - the same category of action. Actions with the move trait aka move actions. And they all follow the same rules, barring Fly (which isn't relevant here). One of these rules, as you pointed out, is this one:

"Normally, movement costs 5 feet per square when you’re moving on a grid [...]"

That is the rule. By default, any movement - regardless of movement type - from one square to another costs 5 feet. That doesn't change unless modified by feats or (greater) difficult terrain.

The glossary-and-index says on page 634, "move (trait) An action with this trait involves moving from one space to another. 474" Page 474...

As I said, I realise how you got to where you went. My point is that you are drawing connections that I don't think are correct. As breithauptclan said, that line is there to make clear that you can't Step to climb or fly (as is repeated in "Movement Types"). It has nothing to do with how far you can move. Your movement budget is 5ft, barring feats and stuff of course.

Horizon Hunters

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Also, if you are already in difficult terrain, and you want to step to another square of difficult terrain, that is still "stepping into difficult terrain." Where you start doesn't matter, what matters is whether the square you are entering is difficult terrain, and what action you are using to get there.


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Karmagator wrote:
Seisho wrote:

I am reading through the whole threat and honestly Karmagator I am not sure that I understand where the problem lies.

So lets try to go over it once more slowly.

Step

1. Requires you to have 10 feet of movement speed to be able to do it.

2. You can only use step with your landspeed. That means that you have to 'walk' or 'make steps' to use step. No flying, no swimming, no climbing

3. Step moves you 5 feet. How much movement you have is irrelevant.

3.1. Some feats enable you to make 10 foot steps. Your actual movement is still irrelevant. This point irrelevant for everything following it.

4. Step does not Trigger reactions.

5. You can NOT step into difficult terrain.

6. If you have feather step you ignore 5.

Basically, does Feather Step allow you to Step into difficult terrain in the sense that you also ignore the "moving into difficult terrain cost 10ft of movement" rule, as you can only move 5. Or does it just ignore the "You can't Step into difficult terrain" rule? Because if the latter is true, then Feather Step is useless on its own.

It is the first

Feather step allows you to move into diffivult terrain. It has nothing to do with movement. 'Moving into difficult terrain' is not appliccable here


Seisho wrote:
Karmagator wrote:

Basically, does Feather Step allow you to Step into difficult terrain in the sense that you also ignore the "moving into difficult terrain cost 10ft of movement" rule, as you can only move 5. Or does it just ignore the "You can't Step into difficult terrain" rule? Because if the latter is true, then Feather Step is useless on its own.

It is the first

Feather step allows you to move into diffivult terrain. It has nothing to do with movement. 'Moving into difficult terrain' is not appliccable here

Feather Step allows you to Step into difficult terrain. Step is a move action, ergo movement. I mean all of this is under the literal title "movement", not that that shouldn't be obvious. Therefore I fail to see why moving into difficult terrain shouldn't be applicable to movement. Hell, the feat iself deals with at least one rule from that exact rule block. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but what you are saying makes no sense to me.


Karmagator wrote:
Wait, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me - or at least my originally presented possible alternative interpretation? Because "Feather Step removes that last restriction. Leaving: you move 5 feet, and don't provoke reactions." sounds like you agree, as that would leave you unable to move into difficult terrain without being able to step 10 feet or more. But the first part of your answer heavily indicated that you don't agree with that, which leaves me a bit confused XD

My ruling is that Feather Step does let you use Step in difficult terrain.

The only part of Step that directly references the actual value of your land speed is in the requirement. 'Your Speed is at least 10 feet.' I would definitely calculate your movement speed through that difficult terrain and make sure that you can still go 10 feet through it before letting you use Feather Step to move 5 feet without provoking reactions.

But as long as your speed through that terrain does let you go 10 feet through the difficult terrain, and you have Feather Step, then you can use Step into the difficult terrain. Because otherwise Feather Step should have a requirement before taking the feat that requires you to have a Step distance of at least 10 feet. Otherwise it is just a trap option.


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Karmagator wrote:

After playing 2e pretty much since release, I can't believe I'm just now noticing this. Without being able to Step at least 10 feet, Feather Step actually doesn't do anything.

It only removes the limitation on being able to Step into difficult terrain, it critically doesn't change the movement cost associated with it. And since it costs 10 feet of movement to go into a square of difficult terrain... you need another feat for it to actually do anything.

Thoughts? Errata?

I do not understand the issue.

The only reason to Step is to avoid triggering an AoO. Normall, you can't Step into diferent terrain. Feather Step, thus allows you to move 5' in difficult terrain and avoid an AoO. What is the confusion?

It seems irrelevant whether it cost you 10' of movement or 5'. You use up your entire Action to Step into difficult terrain...which is what Feather Step says you get to do.

Quote:
Feather Step actually doesn't do anything.

It does. It lest you move 5' in difficult terrain without triggering an AoO. A 10' Stride does not give you that.

What am I missing?

Horizon Hunters

N N 959 wrote:
What am I missing?

Nothing, you're correct. It is my understanding OP believed that you can step into difficult terrain, but not within it, meaning once you're inside difficult terrain you couldn't step anymore. This is an incorrect interpretation, as I explained in my post above.


I've read the whole thread three times again and honestly...I give up

Maybe it is because english is not my first language but I am not able to explain Karmagator this really simple thing for whatever reason as he sees a problem where there is none.

We have 18 posts which basically all explain the same thing in about a dozen different ways and I am really not sure where the point does not get across

Sczarni

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The correct answer is:

Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

The original poster has already stated their group allows Feather Step to work, and everyone here allows Feather Step to work, ergo, Feather Step works.


Ok, there is obviously some kind of massive misunderstanding or what have you going on.

It might seem fairly pointless at this point, but maybe this way will clear it up:

There are two rules preventing you from moving into difficult terrain with the Step action. One, the rule "You can't Step into difficult terrain." from both the Step action and under Difficult Terrain. The other is the rule about moving into difficult terrain, as that means that if you are adjacent to a square of difficult terrain, that square is essentially 10ft away for the purposes of movement like Step and Stride. And since Step provides you with 5ft of movement, you do not have enough to get into the square.

What the square you are starting in is doesn't matter and I've never said anything to the contrary, so I have no idea where you get that from.

Now, there are two possible interpretations of what Feather Step does:

(1) It just ignores rule one, meaning you still need 10ft of movement to move into difficult terrain with any kind of move action, including Step. The only way to achieve that is with a feat like Tiger Stance, meaning Feather Step would do nothing for a character who can only move 5ft with a Step. That is the interpretation that started this whole argument.

(2) It ignores both rules. If you can use the Step action and you are adjacent to a square of difficult terrain, you can move into it with a Step even if your Step is only 5ft. That is the way that people - including my group - seem to be using it.


I think people are way over thinking this. Specific trumps general. The specific rule from this feat is you can step into difficult terrain.


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What an elaborate thread. Is the point that Step and (say) Stride are being conflated by the OP, without considering the consequence of each? If one has a Land Speed of at least 10ft, one can Step 5ft into difficult terrain *without incurring an AoO* only by using Feather Step. If one has a Land Speed of at least 10ft one can Stride (say) 5ft (or more if speed exceeds 10ft) into difficult terrain *but will incur an AoO*. (This is my first post and I’m just beginning to learn PF2E) so please, please forgive me if this adds nothing to the discussion!)


Grannox wrote:
What an elaborate thread. Is the point that Step and (say) Stride are being conflated by the OP, without considering the consequence of each? If one has a Land Speed of at least 10ft, one can Step 5ft into difficult terrain *without incurring an AoO* only by using Feather Step. If one has a Land Speed of at least 10ft one can Stride (say) 5ft (or more if speed exceeds 10ft) into difficult terrain *but will incur an AoO*. (This is my first post and I’m just beginning to learn PF2E) so please, please forgive me if this adds nothing to the discussion!)

Don't worry about it ^^. I'm not entirely sure I or anyone else has really contributed to a discussion either, since we are arriving at the same conclusion(?), but everything before that point varies from "different, but combinable" to "mutually exclusive" and is a general ball of confusion.

And no, the problem is not if you would take an AoO, it is if the movement is even possible in the first place.


Cheers Karmagator. Would people agree that movement into Difficult Terrain using Stride or Feather Step is possible (both providing Land Speed is at least 10ft; Stride would take one a distance equal to half one’s Speed, with an AoO; Feather Step would only ever take one 5ft, with no AoO) but that movement into Difficult Terrain using *just* Step isn’t possible?


Grannox wrote:
Cheers Karmagator. Would people agree that movement into Difficult Terrain using Stride or Feather Step is possible (both providing Land Speed is at least 10ft; Stride would take one a distance equal to half one’s Speed, with an AoO; Feather Step would only ever take one 5ft, with no AoO) but that movement into Difficult Terrain using *just* Step isn’t possible?

Yep, that is essentially the conclusion I think we have reached. Or started at, really.


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Everyone agrees that Feather Step lets you make a single 5 foot step into difficult terrain, which you otherwise couldn't do.

All of the debate is just people disagreeing on why it lets you do that. It is all more or less an academic discussion.


Feather Step lets you Step into Difficult Terrain, which you otherwise could not do without the feat, as evidenced both by Step being limited to 5 feet of distance, but also by the feat providing an exception to this general rule. Even if RAW, it does nothing to rectify this being possible within the feat description, the intent of the feat's ability is quite clear: You should be able to Step into Difficult Terrain when you acquire the feat.

It makes more sense for the feat to actually do something than for it to just not work, so it falls under the "Broken/Nonsensible Rules" clause, and so should be adjusted by GMs to the clear intention of the feat, which is that it would make your Steps' movement costs not adjusted by Difficult Terrain (though Greater Difficult Terrain is still impossible, even with the feat).


Yeah I am going with the specific trumps general crowd here. It is obvious what the RAI is and RAW while admittedly a little obtuse leans decently in favour of step not caring about difficult terrain for the purpose of how far you can move.

Stride states "You move up to your Speed"

Step states "You move 5 feet"

Difficult terrain states "costs an extra 5 feet of movement"

Step lets you move a specific distance, it doesn't use a budget like stride does and only uses speed to determine if you can step or not.

Difficult terrain doesn't actually change the distance you travel, it just makes each 5ft cost more when using your speed budget, and step sidesteps this entirely (pun intended).

Now someone may say that is an overly literal reading and that the developers probably likely didn't put that much thought into it... and I would agree... but we also agree that RAI is that featherstep is intended to allow you to be able to step into difficult terrain, so... that line of argument is nonsensical.

Sczarni

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The basic explanation being that Step ≠ Speed, and that the additional movement cost associated with difficult terrain only matters when using a Speed.

Karmagator believes the additional movement cost of difficult terrain is one of the reasons you can't Step into it, and because of that belief, argues that Feather Step is nonfunctional without some other ability to mitigate the additional movement cost.

But as people have tried to explain, that's irrelevant.

EDIT: Ninjas happen


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Karmagator wrote:

Ok, there is obviously some kind of massive misunderstanding or what have you going on.

It might seem fairly pointless at this point, but maybe this way will clear it up:

Agreed. And the misunderstanding is right here:

Karmagator wrote:
There are two rules preventing you from moving into difficult terrain with the Step action. One, the rule "You can't Step into difficult terrain." from both the Step action and under Difficult Terrain. The other is the rule about moving into difficult terrain, as that means that if you are adjacent to a square of difficult terrain, that square is essentially 10ft away for the purposes of movement like Step and Stride. And since Step provides you with 5ft of movement, you do not have enough to get into the square.

Difficult terrain does not suddenly move farther away. It costs more movement points to move through it. Instead of costing 5 feet of your movement to move 5 feet, it costs 10 feet of your movement to move 5 feet.

Step does not provide a movement speed of 5 feet. It says that you move 5 feet as long as your normal land speed would allow you to move at least 10 feet through that terrain.

The only thing preventing you from using Step in difficult terrain is the two places in the rules that say exactly that. Once Feather Step removes that restriction, Step into difficult terrain works fine (as long as you can still move at least 10 feet through that terrain type).


breithauptclan wrote:
Karmagator wrote:

Ok, there is obviously some kind of massive misunderstanding or what have you going on.

It might seem fairly pointless at this point, but maybe this way will clear it up:

Agreed. And the misunderstanding is right here:

Karmagator wrote:
There are two rules preventing you from moving into difficult terrain with the Step action. One, the rule "You can't Step into difficult terrain." from both the Step action and under Difficult Terrain. The other is the rule about moving into difficult terrain, as that means that if you are adjacent to a square of difficult terrain, that square is essentially 10ft away for the purposes of movement like Step and Stride. And since Step provides you with 5ft of movement, you do not have enough to get into the square.

Difficult terrain does not suddenly move farther away. It costs more movement points to move through it. Instead of costing 5 feet of your movement to move 5 feet, it costs 10 feet of your movement to move 5 feet.

Step does not provide a movement speed of 5 feet. It says that you move 5 feet as long as your normal land speed would allow you to move at least 10 feet through that terrain.

The only thing preventing you from using Step in difficult terrain is the two places in the rules that say exactly that. Once Feather Step removes that restriction, Step into difficult terrain works fine (as long as you can still move at least 10 feet through that terrain type).

We will have to agree to disagree on this then, because I see absolutely no reason to interpret Step that way.

Because Step doesn't say "you move 5 feet as long as your normal land speed would allow you to move at least 10 feet through that terrain.". It says "you move 5 feet". The requirement has nothing to do with how you calculate the distance you can move, it is only important for being able to use the action in the first place. If it did, it would be part of the line "you move x feet". Requirement entries are exactly what they say they are - these are the required circumstances to use that particular action, nothing more.

And from that point on you apply the same rules as for all other movement - if moving from one square to the next costs more movement than you have available to you with your action, you cannot move to that square.

So yeah, unless I see an official ruling/errata on this in your favour, I'm telling you, you are misinterpreting the rules. But regardless, thank you for clearing up the confusion.

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