Iblydos


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Pathfinder’s take on Ancient Greece, a land of hero-gods and monsters; we’ve seen one of its cities in Distant Shores, and a few more of its hero-gods at the final 1e AP backmatter - how do folks like the region? Is it somewhere you’re eager to see more of?


Honestly it's kinda meh to me. I do like the behemoth creatures that have a specific weakness to the wish spell, but other than that there's nothing about it that particularly grabs my attention with so little to go on.

To be fair however, I'm also not much of a fan of Greek mythology, so I'm sure that plays some role in biasing me against it.

Note that this will not in any way prevent me from reading everything about it should Paizo release a book on it, particularly given the quality of books they've been releasing the past 2 or 3 years.


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I love the idea of it. Can't wait to see what they make of it, Archaic/Classical/Hellenistic Greece has so much great history and myths to get inspired from. And since Iblydos is presumably an archipelago made up of many different city-states, they have so much opportunity to make each area feel unique and distinct. I think it would be particularly cool to see Amazon-like society or an island ruled by minotaurs.

Similar to my thoughts on Osirion, it would also be interesting art-wise to see it combine an Ancient Greek aesthetic with a Medieval/Renaissance state of fashion and technology.

Liberty's Edge

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SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Honestly it's kinda meh to me. I do like the behemoth creatures that have a specific weakness to the wish spell, but other than that there's nothing about it that particularly grabs my attention with so little to go on.

To be fair however, I'm also not much of a fan of Greek mythology, so I'm sure that plays some role in biasing me against it.

Note that this will not in any way prevent me from reading everything about it should Paizo release a book on it, particularly given the quality of books they've been releasing the past 2 or 3 years.

Funny thing is that I love Greek mythology and it is the exact reason I also am not really interested in this. I do not want Diet Ancient Mythic Greece.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd be interested in seeing what they could do with it since there have been some similar themed Greek 3pp 5e products out there recently.

Would be interesting to see if a Satyr, Minotaur or maybe playable Cyclopean ancestry would appear.
Would be probably be better if it was included with some other similar type lost civilizations or other neighboring regions perhaps

Grand Lodge

For me, it's sorta like 'The Raven Black' -- I love Classical Studies so I love Iblydos -- but it's the region that doesn't necessarily need any design from Paizo!

I mean, if they design it whole cloth from Heroic, and then Classical, Greece, well, we already have all of that. So it would be just like reading an old textbook on Classical Studies. However, if they designed Iblydos with significantly different, say, merely 'Greek Flavored' material, it's more likely to leave a really bad taste in our mouth. We the folks who love Greek Mythology and have read gazillions of books on The Heroic Age and The Dark Age and The Golden Age, whatever, well, if there's too much incongruity, we're not gonna like it.

If Paizo does Iblydos, I'll take a long look at it and may well buy it. But really, If and when I want a Classics-themed game, I don't need a damned thing from Paizo to comprehensively build Iblydos.

....To answer the OP, well, I guess 'Yes' AND 'No.'


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I will say, such a book has some potential Ancestries a lot of folks would love: minotaur, satyr, stheno, something dryad-, cyclops-, or harpy-inspired...


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keftiu wrote:
I will say, such a book has some potential Ancestries a lot of folks would love: minotaur, satyr, stheno, something dryad-, cyclops-, or harpy-inspired...

I have a player who is using Strix with Songbird heritage to play a harpy at the moment.

As for minotaur I recently wrote a 2,255 word Minotaur ancestry. Probably not completely done with it yet, but could share.


The Raven Black wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
...
Funny thing is that I love Greek mythology and it is the exact reason I also am not really interested in this. I do not want Diet Ancient Mythic Greece.

100% this. Bland and semi there. If they make something unique with a touch here and there, sure...

But I'll be honest, (mostly american) produced theme park aproximations of cultures are plentiful, I'm sure we dont need one more.

But perhaps it is a biased opinion; I thoroughly enjoyed Mwangi expanse and it could be a similar dynamic, and I am just ignorant of parts of other cultures. So maybe it is just the perfect product. (although mythical greece with golden armour has been done to death)


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I mean, the hero-gods are already something wholly unique and not drawn from the real world; Chinostes is especially fresh, as is Iapholi.

Liberty's Edge

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keftiu wrote:
I mean, the hero-gods are already something wholly unique and not drawn from the real world; Chinostes is especially fresh, as is Iapholi.

I think they are Paizo's take on the Greek demigods. They seem to be unique in Golarion, but the concept is completely drawn from the RL Greek legends and feels to me rather shoehorned in Golarion.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Friendly reminder that Iblydos is Babhomet's place of birth ;P


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The Raven Black wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I mean, the hero-gods are already something wholly unique and not drawn from the real world; Chinostes is especially fresh, as is Iapholi.
I think they are Paizo's take on the Greek demigods. They seem to be unique in Golarion, but the concept is completely drawn from the RL Greek legends and feels to me rather shoehorned in Golarion.

I think the fact that they aren’t blood-descended from deities, can be created with cyclops prophecy-magic, and can apparently be a random lion all make them plenty distinct. You aren’t likely to see a Greek demigod who is a hero-turned-vampire worshiped by two separate, feuding cults - that’s all Golarion.

Plus, we know Arcadia has hero-gods of its own.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeaaaah. Dismissing Iblydos as "bland generic greek ripoff" kinda requires that you haven't actually looked into the area at all because you dismissed theme of it ^^; Its kinda like dismissing Osirion as "just egypt" (though granted I don't think paizo has done Osirion to its full potential either)

Maybe better example would be dismissing Razatlan as "just Aztecs" :p

Grand Lodge

CorvusMask wrote:
Yeaaaah. Dismissing Iblydos as "bland generic greek ripoff" kinda....

.

Huh.

I had to really think about that for a few minutes.

My first reaction was, 'Hey, I'm not dismissing Iblydos at all.' But. Um.
....Huh

I think one of the great strengths of the Paizo setting is that it's so easy to say to someone new -- as way of introducing them to the setting -- 'This area of Golarion is like this real-world-culture and that part of Golarion is inspired by that real-world-mythology.' Like (I think) everyone on The Boards here, I see that design choice as a strength. But, of course, it also has its caveats (much talked about over the years in other Threads).

Getting back to This Thread: ....I am saying (and I think the other posters who have said such similar) that in the case of Iblydos, we are such big Classical Studies fans, that we don't really want to see Paizo do more on Iblydos, because, either Paizo would have to do an obvious 'copy/paste' of Classical Studies -- which we already know very, Very well, or they would have to change it up creatively and, since we already love it as Classical Studies, we won't likely enjoy what they are do differently. ....When we want to have a Classical Studies-flavored game, we don't need Paizo's help to do it -- we'll just put Greek and Hellenistic and Roman and Etruscan (etc.) stuff in Iblydos and play.

....So, does that mean I'm being dismissive of Iblydos?!?

I honestly don't know!

I mean, the whole point of Paizo having a design platform of, 'Hey, let's make it easy for gamers to introduce our campaign setting to newcomers by making places like Osirion and Iblydos, Ustalov and Tian Xia' -- is so that it's easy on US. Vudra = India. Andoran = Patriots. Cheliax = Devil Worshippers. ....These are easy-to-understand Starting Points. Intentionally done.

Now, in the case of Iblydos, some of us don't need anything else. But I don't think that means we're being dismissive of Iblydos. (But I really did have to think about it for a few minutes. I wasn't sure.

.

Let me use the following as an example.

For me, I don't know anything about Far Eastern, or Oriental, culture, society or history. I come from a generation that was very well educated in Western European culture, society and history (including Classical Studies), but very poorly (actually completely neglected) on Oriental, African and Native Americas culture, society and history.

If someone like me wants to play in Tian Xia, I will NEED Paizo's source material. I am from the generation that was actually taught that Oriental = 'Chinaman.' I admit gross ignorance on the differences between Korean and Japanese and Chinese and Mongol and Siamese cultures and societies and histories. (I'll blow you Millennials away on Greek Mythology and European History, but-- ) So I really do need educating in those areas. Likewise, EVERYTHING I know from Egyptian Mythology comes from the 1980 Deities and Demigods book! So I need help if I want to run something in Osirion.

But I don't need any help (inspiration?) from Paizo on Iblydos.

Just like a gamer friend of mine with a Masters Degree in Eastern Studies, who has lived in various parts of The Orient, who knows a few Eastern languages, who teaches Eastern philosophy, etc. probably doesn't need Paizo to help him or her design a campaign in Tian Xia. And, very possibly, may even roll his or her eyes at some of Paizo's Tian source material, may even be dismissive of it, only seeing errors and inconsistencies and problems.

Does that mean we are "dismissive" of Iblydos and Tian Xia, respectively?

Huh.

- - -

Anyway,
Was this post waaay too long?
sorry


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I mean, the hero-gods are already something wholly unique and not drawn from the real world; Chinostes is especially fresh, as is Iapholi.
I think they are Paizo's take on the Greek demigods. They seem to be unique in Golarion, but the concept is completely drawn from the RL Greek legends and feels to me rather shoehorned in Golarion.

I think the fact that they aren’t blood-descended from deities, can be created with cyclops prophecy-magic, and can apparently be a random lion all make them plenty distinct. You aren’t likely to see a Greek demigod who is a hero-turned-vampire worshiped by two separate, feuding cults - that’s all Golarion.

Plus, we know Arcadia has hero-gods of its own.

Well, this piques my curiosity. Besides Distant Shores, where else has this lore appeared?


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Per Astra wrote:
keftiu wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I mean, the hero-gods are already something wholly unique and not drawn from the real world; Chinostes is especially fresh, as is Iapholi.
I think they are Paizo's take on the Greek demigods. They seem to be unique in Golarion, but the concept is completely drawn from the RL Greek legends and feels to me rather shoehorned in Golarion.

I think the fact that they aren’t blood-descended from deities, can be created with cyclops prophecy-magic, and can apparently be a random lion all make them plenty distinct. You aren’t likely to see a Greek demigod who is a hero-turned-vampire worshiped by two separate, feuding cults - that’s all Golarion.

Plus, we know Arcadia has hero-gods of its own.

Well, this piques my curiosity. Besides Distant Shores, where else has this lore appeared?

There’s a very fun listing of a few other hero-gods in the back of the final volume of Tyrant’s Grasp, I believe!

Paizo Employee Starfinder Senior Developer

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Per Astra wrote:
keftiu wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I mean, the hero-gods are already something wholly unique and not drawn from the real world; Chinostes is especially fresh, as is Iapholi.
I think they are Paizo's take on the Greek demigods. They seem to be unique in Golarion, but the concept is completely drawn from the RL Greek legends and feels to me rather shoehorned in Golarion.

I think the fact that they aren’t blood-descended from deities, can be created with cyclops prophecy-magic, and can apparently be a random lion all make them plenty distinct. You aren’t likely to see a Greek demigod who is a hero-turned-vampire worshiped by two separate, feuding cults - that’s all Golarion.

Plus, we know Arcadia has hero-gods of its own.

Well, this piques my curiosity. Besides Distant Shores, where else has this lore appeared?

I wrote two additional pages about Iblydan hero-gods in the back of Pathfinder #144: Midwives to Death, which was an extended article where many developers each got two pages to write about whatever topic they wanted in this final Adventure Path volume for Pathfinder's first edition.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Thanks to you both--I'm looking forward to reading these!


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Coming back to this thread to say that I'd love for some of the hero-gods to officially come over into 2e; while it's easy enough to homebrew, Book of the Dead being imminent has me wanting to make a character devoted to Chinostes, who I adore.

2e has been really good about making real-world inspired reasons feel more distinct than just a pop culture coat of paint; the Mwangi Expanse is clearly leaning on West Africa, but so much of it is original fantasy. We've seen a pretty classic (and relatively shallow) take on Greek myth via 5e's Theros adaptation - but Iblydos isn't in a Classical setting, and has super unique neighbors to deal with.

Rules for becoming a hero-god (since we know other regions of Golarion have them) would be a blast, too. It might make for a nice angle on 2e Mythic stuff, or perhaps offer a slightly lower-powered alternative.

EDIT: Do we know where Iblydos is on this map?


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keftiu wrote:

Coming back to this thread to say that I'd love for some of the hero-gods to officially come over into 2e; while it's easy enough to homebrew, Book of the Dead being imminent has me wanting to make a character devoted to Chinostes, who I adore.

2e has been really good about making real-world inspired reasons feel more distinct than just a pop culture coat of paint; the Mwangi Expanse is clearly leaning on West Africa, but so much of it is original fantasy. We've seen a pretty classic (and relatively shallow) take on Greek myth via 5e's Theros adaptation - but Iblydos isn't in a Classical setting, and has super unique neighbors to deal with.

Rules for becoming a hero-god (since we know other regions of Golarion have them) would be a blast, too. It might make for a nice angle on 2e Mythic stuff, or perhaps offer a slightly lower-powered alternative.

EDIT: Do we know where Iblydos is on this map?

I agree with all of this! Would love to see the return of the hero gods. Weren't Hero-gods also present in Arcadia?

I think Iblydos is the islands below that big desert in Casmaron


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The Painted Oryx wrote:
Would love to see the return of the hero gods. Weren't Hero-gods also present in Arcadia?

Arcadia used to have some (seemingly empowered by what was functionally a smaller, weaker Starstone chunk) who fought for independence in Innazpa from ancient Razatlan and reshaped the land to found Xopatl. They all died out or ascended back in the Age of Anguish, thousands of years before Golarion's present day, and are revered today as saints.

I swear, a third spot beyond Iblydos and Arcadia was recently established as having hero-gods, but I can't for the life of me remember were.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Iblydos is indeed the string of islands close to the center of the map south of the big desert.

The hero gods aren't gonna be coming back before we figure out when and (more importantly and significantly) IF we have something akin to mythic in 2nd edition. Once we make that decision (yes or no) we can go ahead with Iblydos in detail, but until we make that decision it's not really all that responsible to do much more with the region since we won't know what rules we should use to support it. We have some cool Iblydos ideas in the works for when that decision's made, but until then there's plenty of other stories to tell and places to explore.


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James Jacobs wrote:

Iblydos is indeed the string of islands close to the center of the map south of the big desert.

The hero gods aren't gonna be coming back before we figure out when and (more importantly and significantly) IF we have something akin to mythic in 2nd edition. Once we make that decision (yes or no) we can go ahead with Iblydos in detail, but until we make that decision it's not really all that responsible to do much more with the region since we won't know what rules we should use to support it. We have some cool Iblydos ideas in the works for when that decision's made, but until then there's plenty of other stories to tell and places to explore.

Appreciate the reply, James! Always nice to have a little hope and expectations management rolled together, and to see you posting.

Liberty's Edge

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keftiu wrote:
The Painted Oryx wrote:
Would love to see the return of the hero gods. Weren't Hero-gods also present in Arcadia?

Arcadia used to have some (seemingly empowered by what was functionally a smaller, weaker Starstone chunk) who fought for independence in Innazpa from ancient Razatlan and reshaped the land to found Xopatl. They all died out or ascended back in the Age of Anguish, thousands of years before Golarion's present day, and are revered today as saints.

I swear, a third spot beyond Iblydos and Arcadia was recently established as having hero-gods, but I can't for the life of me remember were.

Vudra ?

From 60ft under according to pathfinderwiki : "the region of Vudra known as the Divine Garden.

The Divine Garden's soil is considered sacred ground, where deities and hero-gods descend to walk among mortals."


The Raven Black wrote:
keftiu wrote:
The Painted Oryx wrote:
Would love to see the return of the hero gods. Weren't Hero-gods also present in Arcadia?

Arcadia used to have some (seemingly empowered by what was functionally a smaller, weaker Starstone chunk) who fought for independence in Innazpa from ancient Razatlan and reshaped the land to found Xopatl. They all died out or ascended back in the Age of Anguish, thousands of years before Golarion's present day, and are revered today as saints.

I swear, a third spot beyond Iblydos and Arcadia was recently established as having hero-gods, but I can't for the life of me remember were.

Vudra ?

From 60ft under according to pathfinderwiki : "the region of Vudra known as the Divine Garden.

The Divine Garden's soil is considered sacred ground, where deities and hero-gods descend to walk among mortals."

That’s it, thank you!


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"Chanting arcane words of necromancy: Rise dead thread frozen in time, rise and live again!"

James Jacobs wrote:

Iblydos is indeed the string of islands close to the center of the map south of the big desert.

The hero gods aren't gonna be coming back before we figure out when and (more importantly and significantly) IF we have something akin to mythic in 2nd edition. Once we make that decision (yes or no) we can go ahead with Iblydos in detail, but until we make that decision it's not really all that responsible to do much more with the region since we won't know what rules we should use to support it. We have some cool Iblydos ideas in the works for when that decision's made, but until then there's plenty of other stories to tell and places to explore.

And now the time has come. The conditions are met. Will the prophecy be true? Can't wait for War of Immortals, my heart is pounding. A Iblydos mythic adventure path will be mind blowing.


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Linking to some comments in the Casmaron thread by Eric Mona, I think the idea that the areas of the Padishah Empire neighbouring Iblydos are more akin to ancient Canaan and Phoenicia, or Classical Anatolia, than Persia or the Arab and Turkic empires, frames Iblydos in a very interesting light. Ancient Greece has a tremendous influence on it from the cultures that neighboured them, and it would feel wrong to have Greece without equivalents to them. Iblydan settlers immigrating to neighbouring Khattib and Midea, and vice versa, is an interesting dynamic to examine, and gives the region more to work with than revolving entirely around the demigods. And just because Iblydos is known for its Hero-Gods, that doesn't mean that the neighbouring regions wouldn't have just as long a tradition of demigods that walked the earth. There is a REASON why the Padishah Empire is the largest empire in the world, and the oldest continuous one, and while they may not have Myth-Speaking the Padishah Empire has resisted conquests, survived the ravages of Voradni Voon, and has either beaten back or survived the ravages of Spawn of Rovagug as they marched across the land, and is home to the greatest and oldest magical institutions in the known world.

I also thoroughly agree with the idea of not just focussing on Classical Greece, but also looking at other periods rich in influence to draw on like the Minoans, the Mycenaeans, Archaic Greece and even the Hellenistic era. I've always liked the idea that the Cyclopes originally had a Mycenaean palatial culture that they maintain in places (the culture is, after all, KNOWN for its Cyclopean architecture), Dhuraxilis borrows much more heavily from the Minoans than the heavily urbanised Classical city-states which makes it feel both ancient and culturally alien to the other islands even beyond their species make-up, Hobgoblins seem ideally suited to having a Sparta equivalent somewhere glaring at its neighbours but kept in check by everyone else glaring back, and I think it would be apropos to have a tiny chunk of mainland that Iblydos colonised millennia ago which has resisted annexation by neighbouring satrapies and, if a GM so wanted, could be the perfect place to tell the story of an Iblydan Hero-God conquering the Padishah Empire ala Alexander the Great General, Decent Lover, Mediocre King.

And yes, these are all ideas I wrote up in my own homebrew setting guide, which may never see the light of day if Paizo intends to publish its own, but which I don't regret writing for myself.


So this might be a big question but y'all seem to be the people to ask- what actually are Hero Gods?

Mechanically, as far as I can tell, they're people (and a sword) with mythic powers. But what is their relationship with the cyclops? Do the cyclops "make" them, or just reveal their origins? Can anyone become one?


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Bizzare Beasts Boozer wrote:

So this might be a big question but y'all seem to be the people to ask- what actually are Hero Gods?

Mechanically, as far as I can tell, they're people (and a sword) with mythic powers. But what is their relationship with the cyclops? Do the cyclops "make" them, or just reveal their origins? Can anyone become one?

The cyclopes of Iblydos have an ability to look into the future, foreseeing a chain of events that will lead certain people to their destined apotheosis. By fulfilling these prophesies, mortals (not just humans, there are at least two cyclops Hero-Gods) can achieve what was in 1e called Mythic Power - basically additional abilities and powers on top of class levels, including the ability to be worshipped as a god and grant their followers spells up to a certain level. It's all meant to remind you of the hero-cults of Greek heroes like Achilles, Odysseus, Atalanta, Helen, Perseus, Theseus, Medea, Jason, and of course Herakles - demigods, the descendants of gods, and people who are otherwise more than just human, capable of feats mortals can't match.

The problem with Myth-Speaking is that it depends on prophecy, and after the death of Aroden, a god the Iblydans have possibly never heard of, prophecy fundamentally broke which made Myth-Speaking much harder. The cyclopes still sometimes get those visions, but they come a lot less often, and are getting more rare over time, and the chances of them actually coming true have also got a lot tougher. When Ousmariku, a Thalassic Behemoth, rose out of the depths to attack Liachora the year after, ten Hero-Gods stood against him. By the rules of narrative inevitability, they should have won after an epic battle. Instead, they're all dead and because Iblydos can't replace what they lost easily anymore, they're stuck offering him a yearly tribute to beg him to leave until someone can deal with him.

It also seems to be taking a huge toll on the cyclopes themselves. The ones in Iblydos managed to hold off whatever curse doomed the ancient Ghol-Gan Empire to cannibalistic madness, but they're all that's left of another empire that followed Ghol-Gan, Koloran, which once covered much of northern Casmaron where Iobaria now lies and was wiped out by Earthfall. But even in Iblydos, more and more cyclopes keep abandoning civilisation and returning to the wilderness as crude, violent and unintelligent brutes. At least one, Ongalte, believes the Hero-Gods have been sapping their oracular abilities and Myth-Spoke herself into godhood to try and wipe them out. It burnt down her temple and killed her fellow cyclopean priests to do it.

If I'm honest, I think the idea of Mythic was kinda doomed. The very nature of adventuring, of rising from a level 1 who might as well be a commoner for how powerful and influential they are, to even a 10th-15th level character with class levels, already puts you on the level of most demigods and heroes of mythology in terms of the feats you're able to achieve, but I think the Exemplar is a good way to handle some of that niche. You could also maybe make Hero-God an archetype, something any class can take but which bestows abilities other archetypes and classes can't. I especially like the narrative potential of being a living god who can grant their worshippers spells, and it makes me wonder whether Razmir ever set foot on Iblydos to try and get a meeting before being turned away.


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It’s also worth saying that we’ve seen hero-gods in Arcadia and Vudra who had nothing to do with cyclopes myth-speaking, so we can probably consider the term just an in-setting description of a Mythic mortal hero.

Liberty's Edge

Small reminder that AFAICT prophecy broke and then Aroden died. Not the other way around.

Personal theory : Aroden was killed by whoever broke prophecy to check if they had really succeeded. So, someone who knew about Aroden and his prophecy.

Shadow Lodge

keftiu wrote:
It’s also worth saying that we’ve seen hero-gods in Arcadia and Vudra who had nothing to do with cyclopes myth-speaking, so we can probably consider the term just an in-setting description of a Mythic mortal hero.

We've also seen the term "hero-gods" applied to the goblin pantheon. At which point the only general meaning we can probably infer is "'hero-god' is a term someone at Paizo thinks is cool."


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
It’s also worth saying that we’ve seen hero-gods in Arcadia and Vudra who had nothing to do with cyclopes myth-speaking, so we can probably consider the term just an in-setting description of a Mythic mortal hero.
We've also seen the term "hero-gods" applied to the goblin pantheon. At which point the only general meaning we can probably infer is "'hero-god' is a term someone at Paizo thinks is cool."

I honestly don't remember the last time I saw the Goblin Pantheon in print, whereas those Arcadian and Vudran hero-gods are pretty recent.

A quick glance at the wiki page suggests that those Goblin hero-gods could've probably been four Mythic barghests, though.


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I'm kinda okay with several unrelated entities becoming Hero Gods, as the idea of mortals ascending to divinity feels very apt, although perhaps a holdover from the more out-and-out pulpy 1e.

That said- being the most goblin so you end up one of the gods of goblins... That is lore we can all get behind!

I can see the real potential in Myth-speaking in particular, as I am a big fan of the conflict between destiny and freewill (Conjures Theletos ) Theros got name checked a little before- and I do have a soft spot for it, even as I wish there was a little more depth (we keep getting glimpses of cool part of the lore...)

One thing I am a particular fan of, even though they haven't really done anything with it- is that within Theros there's a clear distinction between fate and destiny, and everyone is expected to respect both.


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keftiu wrote:
It’s also worth saying that we’ve seen hero-gods in Arcadia and Vudra who had nothing to do with cyclopes myth-speaking, so we can probably consider the term just an in-setting description of a Mythic mortal hero.

Yes, to be clear, Myth-Speaking is just one of many means of achieving Mythic power in 1e. There are plenty of other ways to find sources of that power, but Myth-Speaking happens to be specific to Iblydos in particular for some reason. I'm also not really clear on whether the process of cyclopes prophesying is what makes the divine potential, or whether that potential already exists and the cyclopes are just mapping out how someone can achieve it and putting people on that path. Just because Myth-Speaking is fading, that doesn't necessarily make apotheosis impossible, just harder to achieve without the prophesies.


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IMO, myth-speaking is particular to cyclops because it was an art/tradition that rose and was perfected in old Ghol-Gan. When it fell, the refugees probably took it with them to Koloran in the north and Iblydos. As Koloran fell too, Iblydos is the only remaining area with any significant portion of cyclops who's civilization hasn't been destroyed or fallen to corruption and eldritch evil.


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Tropkagar wrote:
I know that my opinion will not be the most popular, but nevertheless - I personally do not like Iblydos. I love Greece, but I'm not a fan of archaic or classical Greece, but a fan of the Greek Hellenistic era. I like the atmosphere of the Hellenistic states of the East. Seleucid Persia, Syria under the control of Antigonus, Ptolemaic Egypt, Bactria - all these are rather unusual states that I like more than the classical Greek policies. Likewise, I like western Greek colonies like Massalia or Syracuse. Therefore, I am interested not so much in the image of Iblydos itself, but in the potential former territories of Iblydos on the site of the modern Padishah-Empire of Kelesh, or some colonies in Garund.

I think the problem with the Hellenistic period is that you really can't get something like the Hellenistic kingdoms without the neighbouring Satrapies suffering some severe reversals of fortune, which risks pissing off the entire Padishah Empire. And Iblydos doesn't yet have its Phillip II or Alexander. But a story about such a person's rise, and the establishment of those kingdoms by a resurgent Iblydos, certainly sounds like a story worth telling. And if some peoples' theories about the upcoming death of a god are right, Iblydos might be presented with just such a reversal of fortune among the Padishah Empire if it was able to exploit it.

I do like the idea of an Iblydan colony, though - Osirion is too distant to really represent Ptolemaic Egypt, but you could have a little Cyrenaica somewhere south of Geb and Holomog, an Ionia if there's somewhere north or east of the archipelago on the Casmaron mainland that isn't ruled by one of the satrapies, and something Yavana-like in nearby Vudra with the intermingling of Iblydan and Vudran cultures. Conversely, the impact of neighbouring Midea and Khattib, and of Vudran traders and immigrants, on Iblydos is interesting to think about. Buddhist emissaries were sent to the courts of the Hellenistic kingdoms, Buddhist gravestones have been discovered in Alexandria, and Roman sources record a Sramana monk immolating himself in Athens during the reign of Augustus, an act that impressed the Athenians enough to build him a tomb. There's a lot of cultural admixing during the Hellenistic period that doesn't necessarily need the existence of equivalents to the Seleucid or Ptolemaic Kingdoms to represent in Iblydos.

Liberty's Edge

Morhek wrote:
Tropkagar wrote:
I know that my opinion will not be the most popular, but nevertheless - I personally do not like Iblydos. I love Greece, but I'm not a fan of archaic or classical Greece, but a fan of the Greek Hellenistic era. I like the atmosphere of the Hellenistic states of the East. Seleucid Persia, Syria under the control of Antigonus, Ptolemaic Egypt, Bactria - all these are rather unusual states that I like more than the classical Greek policies. Likewise, I like western Greek colonies like Massalia or Syracuse. Therefore, I am interested not so much in the image of Iblydos itself, but in the potential former territories of Iblydos on the site of the modern Padishah-Empire of Kelesh, or some colonies in Garund.

I think the problem with the Hellenistic period is that you really can't get something like the Hellenistic kingdoms without the neighbouring Satrapies suffering some severe reversals of fortune, which risks pissing off the entire Padishah Empire. And Iblydos doesn't yet have its Phillip II or Alexander. But a story about such a person's rise, and the establishment of those kingdoms by a resurgent Iblydos, certainly sounds like a story worth telling. And if some peoples' theories about the upcoming death of a god are right, Iblydos might be presented with just such a reversal of fortune among the Padishah Empire if it was able to exploit it.

I do like the idea of an Iblydan colony, though - Osirion is too distant to really represent Ptolemaic Egypt, but you could have a little Cyrenaica somewhere south of Geb and Holomog, an Ionia if there's somewhere north or east of the archipelago on the Casmaron mainland that isn't ruled by one of the satrapies, and something Yavana-like in nearby Vudra with the intermingling of Iblydan and Vudran cultures. Conversely, the impact of neighbouring Midea and Khattib, and of Vudran traders and immigrants, on Iblydos is interesting to think about. Buddhist emissaries were sent to the courts of the Hellenistic kingdoms, Buddhist gravestones have...

Well, if Sarenrae is the one dying, this might shake the Padishah Empire enough that it becomes a fertile ground for upheaval, unrest, conquest...

If it all comes down to who has the most experienced hero-gods, Iblydos has a definite head start.

Shadow Lodge

The Raven Black wrote:
Well, if Sarenrae is the one dying, this might shake the Padishah Empire enough that it becomes a fertile ground for upheaval, unrest, conquest...

Perhaps we shouldn't base our predictions about what is likely to happen around "what would let Kelesh suffer from imperialism?" (Or its satrapies any more than they already do)


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Well, if Sarenrae is the one dying, this might shake the Padishah Empire enough that it becomes a fertile ground for upheaval, unrest, conquest...
Perhaps we shouldn't base our predictions about what is likely to happen around "what would let Kelesh suffer from imperialism?" (Or its satrapies any more than they already do)

I don't think Kelesh, the largest and oldest empire on the face of Golarion, is 'suffering' much from imperialism.

Shadow Lodge

keftiu wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Well, if Sarenrae is the one dying, this might shake the Padishah Empire enough that it becomes a fertile ground for upheaval, unrest, conquest...
Perhaps we shouldn't base our predictions about what is likely to happen around "what would let Kelesh suffer from imperialism?" (Or its satrapies any more than they already do)
I don't think Kelesh, the largest and oldest empire on the face of Golarion, is 'suffering' much from imperialism.

It would do if conquered from without by an Iblydian Alexander, as the above posters were theorizing.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Well, if Sarenrae is the one dying, this might shake the Padishah Empire enough that it becomes a fertile ground for upheaval, unrest, conquest...
Perhaps we shouldn't base our predictions about what is likely to happen around "what would let Kelesh suffer from imperialism?" (Or its satrapies any more than they already do)
I don't think Kelesh, the largest and oldest empire on the face of Golarion, is 'suffering' much from imperialism.
It would do if conquered from without by an Iblydian Alexander, as the above posters were theorizing.

Where’s this pearl-clutching over Qadira’s satrap being a warmonger, or the widespread slavery and genie-binding that’s defined much of Kelesh before?

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Playing devil's advocate to zimmerwald here, I mean, Aztecs were horrifying conquering empire and you could say what happened to them with conquistadors was still horrifically tragic.

That said, Qadira is the one with widespread slavery previously.

"To Kelesh, Qadira is impatient, belligerent, and blinded by a foolish, romantic attachment to a mythologized warrior past that is impractical—not to mention unenlightened— as a philosophy of governance. That impatience drives it to adopt practices that many Keleshites consider unethical, such as Qadira’s embrace of slavery or the nation’s conquest of Osirion."

Kelesh is weird in that it far past it was conquering empire yeah, but by now it views itself as peaceful empire and its imperialism is mostly in form of seeking economical domination. Plus whole dealio with Sarenrae being the main religion.

Liberty's Edge

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Well, if Sarenrae is the one dying, this might shake the Padishah Empire enough that it becomes a fertile ground for upheaval, unrest, conquest...
Perhaps we shouldn't base our predictions about what is likely to happen around "what would let Kelesh suffer from imperialism?" (Or its satrapies any more than they already do)
I don't think Kelesh, the largest and oldest empire on the face of Golarion, is 'suffering' much from imperialism.
It would do if conquered from without by an Iblydian Alexander, as the above posters were theorizing.

What if the "Iblydian Alexander" was actually a proponent of the political and social theories you like, galvanizing true revolution in the old dusty empire and its colonies ?


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I really don't like the idea of a "Hellenistic period" Iblydos. Taldor and Chelliax gives me enough of the Hellenistic vibe of the Macedonian expansion. Let's not forget that the common language is Taldan, which became lingua franca the same way Greek did during the Hellenistic period.

Another empire is not what I expect from Iblydos. Instead the concept of city-states is unfathomably more interesting. It was presented in a grand scale only in the Dark Sun setting of old. It's time to see paizo's take on them. Military autocracies like sparta, democracies like Athens, tyrannies like Syracusae are few examples of the endless possibilities of city states.With grand wars among the stronger of them like the Peloponnesian War or truly Mythic war campaigns like the Trojan War, the choices of conflict and interesting politics are truly magnificent.


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I'm gonna say that, at least for me, whether Kelesh deserves to be conquered by an Iblydan Alexander, or whether what came after is "better" than what came before, are separate matters entirely from whether that would be an interesting story to tell.

By any measurable standard, Alexander the Great may have been unstoppable on the battlefield but he wasn't an especially great ruler - he alienated his Persian subjects by burning their sacred texts, he alienated his own men by claiming to be a god and styling himself as a Persian king, he initially alienated the Indian kingdoms and united many of them against him by killing Brahmins because he didn't understand their importance. The empire he killed all those people over 15 years to make immediately collapsed into infighting because he failed to leave a clear and able successor. In contrast, as I understand, being a member-state of the Achaemenid Persian Empire wasn't actually that bad by the standards of ancient empires - in Egypt the appointed Satraps under the 27th and 31st Dynasties were happy to let the Egyptians continue worshipping their own gods and mostly run their own affairs, they mostly let the Greek areas they absorbed appoint their own Satraps and continue Greek lifestyles, and while Mesapotamia's power continued to fade Persia generally seems to have treated them with a light hand too after conquering them, trying to respect their gods and kept Babylon as the regional capital. When Persia came into conflict with Greece, from their perspective it was the Greeks (and specifically the Athenians) picking it, their reaction to provocations escalating until finally ended by Alexander. Otherwise, being a Persian subject doesn't seem to have been a bad deal as long as the Satraps paid the imperial taxes.

Returning to the in-universe Padishah Empire, by all accounts the wider empire is relatively progressive and culturally tolerant (again, by the standards of empires), moreso than Qadira which has been our closest look at it so far, and a force for military and economic stability in Casmaron and abroad. I'm also not saying it needs to - the collapse of an empire is a fairly major shake-up to the status quo, especially for a part of the setting Paizo haven't already fleshed out in much detail beyond Qadira, and it may not be a story they're interested in telling. But that doesn't mean it'll last forever - all empires end at some point, either due to outside aggression or internal instability, and having the possibility for DMs who do want to explore that story would be neat to at least set up the potential for. There's any number of things that could cause it, or at least make it more likely - say Sarenrae dies (which is still just a theory) and the ruling imperial dynasty suddenly lose the divine mandate that was previously stopping other claimant houses from trying their luck, and we get a reenactment of the Crisis of the Third Century if it didn't end with the Dominate. Or the Karazh horse lords go to war on the eastern borders after some provocation - Kelesh has a known history of trying and failing to conquer them. Or a Spawn of Rovagug crawls out of the Pit of Gormuz and heads to the nearest Keleshite territory as its first target.

The more difficult to imagine factor is why Iblydos would want to conquer Kelesh, or how it would do so as a bunch of feuding city-states without the centralised authority that the Macedonians achieved and built on. Is the ever-increasing burden of Ousmariku's yearly tribute driving Iblydos to try plundering their neighbours to meet the beast's demands? Was Ousmariku awakened and sent by Kelesh to diminish a regional rival (this is, after all, an empire that has its agents keep their eyes peeled for the potential return of Namzaruum precisely to stop a resurgent Ninshabur) and they retaliate to end its terror? Or does Sylirica tire of butting heads with Aelyosos and Ptirmeios and pick its own fight with Kelesh, unintentionally triggering a war which draws the other city-states into an alliance, as Athens did when it encouraged the Ionian colonies to revolt?

I will also revise my earlier statement that "you really can't get something like the Hellenistic kingdoms without the neighbouring Satrapies suffering some severe reversals of fortune," and amend that conquering parts of Kelesh isn't necessarily the only way to move Iblydos out of the Classical Age (picking our final patron god and starting building the Wonder :P), just one that parallels the history of Earth's antiquity, which Golarion already draws heavily on for inspiration. Reiterating my idea of colonies that could fill the role, planted states in Casmaron, Garund and Vudra could become kingdoms and republics in their own rights and create a dynamic trade and diplomatic network that Iblydos can plug into outside of and separate from Kelesh. It's just a bit harder to justify for Iblydos because Paizo decided to slap Absalom right where Greece should be if the Inner Sea was the Mediterranean, and had to put their Greek setting somewhere else.

GameDemon wrote:
I really don't like the idea of a "Hellenistic period" Iblydos. Taldor and Chelliax gives me enough of the Hellenistic vibe of the Macedonian expansion. Let's not forget that the common language is Taldan, which became lingua franca the same way Greek did during the Hellenistic period.

It might be quibbling, but Taldor is more Byzantine and Cheliax fills a more Late Roman niche, at least to me, with Taldane/Common equivalent either to Vulgar Latin or Koine Greek. The Romans and Byzantines were great civilisations in their own rights, with history and culture ripe to draw inspiration and influence from, but very different from the world of the Hellenistic kingdoms and colonies.

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