At the Mountains of MAD-ness

[Golurkcanfly]

Currently, there's been an overall acknowledgement that the Thaumaturge is incredibly MAD among other issues, but I haven't seen much discussion on how to address it.

Right now, the class wants Charisma for its core abilities, STR/DEX for accuracy, and DEX/CON/WIS for defenses. This leads INT, an ability score that makes thematic sense to boost for the class, to be your best option for a dump stat. In addition, STR Thaumaturges will be stretched incredibly thin.

Similar to how the class is stretched thin on ability scores due to MAD syndrome, it is also stretched thin in terms of skills. In order to stay up to par with it's primary mechanic, it must pump all 5 creature identification skills.

Both of these leave little room for customization, and I believe both can be addressed with the same change.

---

If you look at the other martial with a non-STR/DEX Key Ability Score (the Investigator), you can see it helps alleviate the MADness by keying it's accuracy off of Intelligence with Devise a Stratagem.

I believe a similar solution could be found for the Thaumaturge. Rather than using Charisma in conjunction with Recall Knowledge to activate Find Flaws (which is thematically awkward already), it could instead use Charisma for accuracy after already using Find Flaws/Esoteric Antithesis, with Find Flaws working closer to something like the Psychic's Mental Scan or tied to a singular skill.

This would greatly reduce the need for STR and DEX to keep up with combat math, allowing for more customization in Ability Scores. In addition, it would reduce the need to keep pumping 5 separate skills.

---

While not necessary for this possible solution, it would also be nice to choose your Key Ability Score between different mental stats like the Psychic, with each one subtly changing how Find Flaws works, but I understand that would contribute to more clutter on an already cluttered class.

[The Raven Black]

I could see a success on some CHA check (maybe Find Flaw, maybe something else) reduce your target's defenses (AC and/or saves) because your otherwordly insistence has shaken/upset/disrupted them enough that they cannot efficiently muster their defenses against your attacks.

[beowulf99]

I don't see why Find Flaws shouldn't make the enemy flat footed to you. If you are finding the best way to hit them, shouldn't that mean that you can bypass their armor/anticipate their dodges? Perhaps this only triggers on a crit pass of Find Flaws, and lasts for a few turns or some such.

This helps with accuracy innately, though let's be honest flanking is probably an option, without using CHA influence your to hit. Which I think is far more thematically awkward than using it for knowledge checks.

[Golurkcanfly]

beowulf99 wrote:

I don't see why Find Flaws shouldn't make the enemy flat footed to you. If you are finding the best way to hit them, shouldn't that mean that you can bypass their armor/anticipate their dodges? Perhaps this only triggers on a crit pass of Find Flaws, and lasts for a few turns or some such.

This helps with accuracy innately, though let's be honest flanking is probably an option, without using CHA influence your to hit. Which I think is far more thematically awkward than using it for knowledge checks.

CHA to hit is clean and is very easily represented by your attacks being drawn towards the monster by the connection you've made. Not only did that silver chain you glued to your sword to hit that werewolf strengthen your attacks, but the connection also "tugs" at your sword.

Plus it's significantly less messy than the Recall Knowledge shenanigans and reduces the MAD issues significantly more than stuff like Flanking and Flat-Footed (which you should be applying anyways via other means).

Furthermore, automatically applying Flat-Footed wouldn't fix the MAD issue, just make heavy investment into STR/DEX even better.

[John R.]

Yeah, I think if they stick with charisma as the key ability, using charisma to hit, even just for the weapon implement would be nice as you're essentially coaxing the weapon to help guide itself to your target.

[Golurkcanfly]

John R. wrote:

Yeah, I think if they stick with charisma as the key ability, using charisma to hit, even just for the weapon implement would be nice as you're essentially coaxing the weapon to help guide itself to your target.

I think restricting it to the weapon implement would be a huge misstep, since the weapon implement is already incredibly strong.

[Themetricsystem]

Count me in as one who thinks that it would be best Cha as the to-hit stat for any/all attacks originating from Implements or attacks that benefit from EA.

Affording Strength on a Thm is just not possible without having critically low Con or Int scores.

[John R.]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

John R. wrote:

Yeah, I think if they stick with charisma as the key ability, using charisma to hit, even just for the weapon implement would be nice as you're essentially coaxing the weapon to help guide itself to your target.

I think restricting it to the weapon implement would be a huge misstep, since the weapon implement is already incredibly strong.

As in, it would make the weapon implement almost always the best choice? I could see that.

Allowing charisma to hit off a successful Find Flaws sounds good too but feels a bit derivative from the Investigator...

[Castilliano]

Charisma to one's attack would be interesting, that is if validated by a magical connection to one's target.

I also could see Find Flaw adding Charisma to damage, and perhaps that Charisma bonus damage could be of a type which triggers any Weakness present or bypasses a Resistance. With that "connection" it doesn't seem one would need RK to set any of this up (freeing up skills). Perception or one of the Charisma skills might be better suited, maybe vs. the target's Stealth or Deception (much like the Rogue feat targets) or maybe vs. their Perception or Will save. (I mean if Constantine the cunning con artist is the examplar, this fits right in even if yes, he's also one of the most learned in DC about the occult.)

Whether or not the Charisma damage replaces or adds to Str would be a matter of DPR balance. It'd be less than Rage, though (auto) triggering Weaknesses & bypassing Resistances might make up the difference (and then there are missile weapons to factor in too). Given that the more abnormal the monster the more likely it is to have a Weakness or Resistance, I think the Thaumaturge doing high damage vs. them (but not so much vs. humans and animals) makes solid sense.

I could also see that Charisma damage beginning off of a limited list of damage types, with the option to expand it via feats, i.e. one to copy metals, another to apply alignment damage, etc. though much might come automatically instead, much like a Monk's.

There's much potential here IMO (though I'd still like the class to be able to work with a low Charisma build too!)

[Golurkcanfly]

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

John R. wrote:

Yeah, I think if they stick with charisma as the key ability, using charisma to hit, even just for the weapon implement would be nice as you're essentially coaxing the weapon to help guide itself to your target.

I think restricting it to the weapon implement would be a huge misstep, since the weapon implement is already incredibly strong.

As in, it would make the weapon implement almost always the best choice? I could see that.

Allowing charisma to hit off a successful Find Flaws sounds good too but feels a bit derivative from the Investigator...

The class is already a bit derivative from Investigator and Ranger to begin with, and I'd rather it be more functional at the cost of being more derivative than be really stringent and only slightly less derivative.

Plus the Investigator already does things a bit weirdly in that it "rolls the attack kinda-but-not-exactly" the action before actually attacking, and I think that's enough differentiation.

[Golurkcanfly]

Castilliano wrote:

Charisma to one's attack would be interesting, that is if validated by a magical connection to one's target.

I also could see Find Flaw adding Charisma to damage, and perhaps that Charisma bonus damage could be of a type which triggers any Weakness present or bypasses a Resistance. With that "connection" it doesn't seem one would need RK to set any of this up (freeing up skills). Perception or one of the Charisma skills might be better suited, maybe vs. the target's Stealth or Deception (much like the Rogue feat targets) or maybe vs. their Perception or Will save. (I mean if Constantine the cunning con artist is the examplar, this fits right in even if yes, he's also one of the most learned in DC about the occult.)

Whether or not the Charisma damage replaces or adds to Str would be a matter of DPR balance. It'd be less than Rage, though (auto) triggering Weaknesses & bypassing Resistances might make up the difference (and then there are missile weapons to factor in too). Given that the more abnormal the monster the more likely it is to have a Weakness or Resistance, I think the Thaumaturge doing high damage vs. them (but not so much vs. humans and animals) makes solid sense.

I could also see that Charisma damage beginning off of a limited list of damage types, with the option to expand it via feats, i.e. one to copy metals, another to apply alignment damage, etc. though much might come automatically instead, much like a Monk's.

There's much potential here IMO (though I'd still like the class to be able to work with a low Charisma build too!)

I think the best way to do a low Charisma build might be to give it options to choose different Key Ability Scores.

Each one could change the skill action of Find Flaws (but all would use Thaumaturgy Lore or whatever so you don't need to play keep-up), with INT using Recall Knowledge, CHA using Gather Information, and WIS using Seek or something. Though the actual skill differentiation is less important than the ability score choice.

[John R.]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Plus the Investigator already does things a bit weirdly in that it "rolls the attack kinda-but-not-exactly" the action before actually attacking, and I think that's enough differentiation.

Ugh, I should have already known that. I've been playing Investigator. Forgot that detail. Also, I think attacking off charisma with Esoteric Antithesis is the ways to go. Just realized that it makes more sense thematically that way.

[Squiggit]

IMO, if it's not going to get something like that, it should get a better chassis.

Right now it has like... a druid chassis with a d8 and only one expert save at 1, which is even worse than the rogue or magus (which I've seen people call out for having poor defenses).

But the MAD really compounds that because they're probably going to start with minimal investment in Con and Wis and even Dex if they're a strength thaumaturge.

From my experience almost as squishy as a wizard... but on a class coded to be a frontliner. I've felt like I've had to kind of go out of my way not to drop them when GMing for thaumaturges.

[John R.]

What if they just upped the class HP to 10/level?

[Squiggit]

d10 would be good. I think it could use Expert Fortitude too (or reflex ).

Right now it and the monk are the only non-casters that don't start with two saves at expert (the monk starts with all three). Even Magus and Summoner start with two expert saves.

Feels pretty rough on a class that seems designed to be a frontliner AND has basically two primary stats right now.

[Castilliano]

John R. wrote:

What if they just upped the class HP to 10/level?

That'd help, but they'll still be sucking in damage.

Rangers & Barbarians also struggle to stand their ground and are better off skirmishing (unless they take up a shield or invest feats).
The Thaumaturge, IMO, lacks enough actions to skirmish while using its other abilities...which are the whole point of playing a Thaumaturgist instead of a simpler martial class.

[Golurkcanfly]

Squiggit wrote:

IMO, if it's not going to get something like that, it should get a better chassis.

Right now it has like... a druid chassis with a d8 and only one expert save at 1, which is even worse than the rogue or magus (which I've seen people call out for having poor defenses).

But the MAD really compounds that because they're probably going to start with minimal investment in Con and Wis and even Dex if they're a strength thaumaturge.

From my experience almost as squishy as a wizard... but on a class coded to be a frontliner. I've felt like I've had to kind of go out of my way not to drop them when GMing for thaumaturges.

Fixing the issue at it's root with the ability scores seems like the most elegant solution that allows for more customization, since rather than just providing a raw boost in power, it gives more opportunity for choice.

[Squiggit]

I mean to some extent I think both need to happen. More customization is good, but only takes you so far if your incredibly thin chassis requires you to pour points into defensive stats to keep up.

[John R.]

I'm in favor of fortitude saves personally. It might just be the iconic (Mios and formerly Mavaro) but this comes off like it should be a heartier and not so nimble class.

I also get the impression this class should generally play more like an Investigator and take on a more supportive role and be happy with getting one REALLY good strike in per combat. It should be able to still go combat heavy if you build for it but I think it's still more geared toward support. I understand the issues people have with the MADness but I'm always wondering if we might be looking at it from the wrong perspective after being entranced by that juicy damage from Esoteric Antithesis.

[Squiggit]

I mean the Investigator is about that 'one really good strike' because the nature of their combat mechanics specifically limit them in that way. You're only allowed to Devise once a round anyways.

EA is the opposite, it's a lasting buff that scales with the number of attacks you can make each turn. It's more akin to a Flurry Ranger's Hunt Prey.

I'm not really sure what you're going to support with with the rest of the kit either.

Amulet's Abeyance is kind of support-y, but it's a reaction. It doesn't interact with your action economy. Lantern is also a little support-y, but passive. Wand is a damage tool (undertuned imo but still). Chalice is a selfish buff and Weapon is offensive and requires you to be in the thick of things.

If the goal is to be more supportive than offensive, the class doesn't really do anything to enable that.

[The Raven Black]

Squiggit wrote:

d10 would be good. I think it could use Expert Fortitude too (or reflex ).

Right now it and the monk are the only non-casters that don't start with two saves at expert (the monk starts with all three). Even Magus and Summoner start with two expert saves.

Feels pretty rough on a class that seems designed to be a frontliner AND has basically two primary stats right now.

The starting profile of the Thaumaturge is that of the Bard, plus Medium armor, minus spellcasting.

Definitely not a Martial profile. Only full casters have only 1 save at Expert (usually Will). The Thaumaturge now joins them, as befits a master of the mystic arts (just kidding).

[MEATSHED]

The Raven Black wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

d10 would be good. I think it could use Expert Fortitude too (or reflex ).

Right now it and the monk are the only non-casters that don't start with two saves at expert (the monk starts with all three). Even Magus and Summoner start with two expert saves.

Feels pretty rough on a class that seems designed to be a frontliner AND has basically two primary stats right now.

The starting profile of the Thaumaturge is that of the Bard, plus Medium armor, minus spellcasting.

Definitely not a Martial profile. Only full casters have only 1 save at Expert (usually Will). The Thaumaturge now joins them, as befits a master of the mystic arts (just kidding).

Its very strange that they don't have 2 good saves, its not like they are against full casters getting 2 as warpriests do and Thaumaturge doesn't really do a lot to warrant them not having 2.

[John R.]

Squiggit wrote:

I mean the Investigator is about that 'one really good strike' because the nature of their combat mechanics specifically limit them in that way. You're only allowed to Devise once a round anyways.

EA is the opposite, it's a lasting buff that scales with the number of attacks you can make each turn. It's more akin to a Flurry Ranger's Hunt Prey.

I'm not really sure what you're going to support with with the rest of the kit either.

Amulet's Abeyance is kind of support-y, but it's a reaction. It doesn't interact with your action economy. Lantern is also a little support-y, but passive. Wand is a damage tool (undertuned imo but still). Chalice is a selfish buff and Weapon is offensive and requires you to be in the thick of things.

If the goal is to be more supportive than offensive, the class doesn't really do anything to enable that.

Well we still have 4 implements TBD and those will likely fill completely different roles than the others.

I think Find Flaws/Esoterica Antithesis also distracted me to compare it to the Investigator when, after all the item feats, it almost feels more like an Alchemist in some cases.

Looking over feats that CAN offer (not will offer) support in combat (even in the form of improving others’ combat capabilities) we’ve got:

Esoteric Lore
Familiar feats [x3] (that’s a stretch on how helpful they’d be in combat)
Root to Life
Scroll feats [x4]
Talisman feats [x3]
Magic Circle feats [x2]
One More Activation
Handy Esoterica feats [x2]
Know-It-All
Share Antithesis
Thaumaturge’s Investiture
Esoteric Reflexes
Shared Warding
Ubiquitous Antithesis
Wonder Worker
Total: 24

The feats that will always benefit the Thaumaturge alone in combat are:

Divine Disharmony
Esoteric Warden
Turn Away Misfortune
Rule of Three
Sympathetic Weakness
Twin Weakness
Implement’s Flight
Sever Magic
Trespass Teleportation
Implement’s Assault
Total: 10

So yes, the Thaumaturge, as is, TOTALLY has the feat support for a straight up melee combat character. Stat them up starting with 16/12/16/10/10/14 and it looks like you’re going to put a world of hurt on your foes. BUT, the majority of the class feats I listed can be utilized to support the party in combat. I think this just goes to show that the Thaumaturge’s strength is what the Occultists was and that is the ability to be built for just about any role.

I guess this is all a bit off topic so to bring it back, yeah, maybe the class is a bit MAD but maybe it’s only due to the perception of what people want it to be versus what the class is. It looks like a class that wants to do everything but really, each individual Thaumaturge should only be built to do a few things well. The benefit of the class is you get to decide what those few things are. Want that heavy hitting melee character? You’re probably gonna have to dump a couple abilities and even cut your key ability down a smidge BUT you're going to naturally get a lot of neat options the Fighter and Barbarian kits would never have. Wanna build an effective gish character? Your martial options are probably going to be limited to a careful and particular strategy but you can possibly out-cast a Magus and still get some nice hits in with your weapon. And there seems to be plenty of other options, but I don’t think it’s expected that you are going to be able to take on more than 2 roles without feeling some serious strain in your ability scores. And that brings up a “problem” with the class: when the Thaumaturge is probably not going to be the best for a given role, why bother playing them in the first place if you’re looking for optimization in that role? I don't particularly think it's a real problem. I absolutely love this class and want the best for it but it also shouldn't be the class everyone wants to pass up the other wonderful classes to play. Like the Occultist, the Thaumaturge, to me, is the pinnacle of what modularity you can have in a class. I see the argument for it currently being MAD but….my instincts tell me “maybe not”.

As always, apologies if I come off as ranting/rambling. I try my best to keep my stream of thought in line.

[Arachnofiend]

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

John R. wrote:

Yeah, I think if they stick with charisma as the key ability, using charisma to hit, even just for the weapon implement would be nice as you're essentially coaxing the weapon to help guide itself to your target.

I think restricting it to the weapon implement would be a huge misstep, since the weapon implement is already incredibly strong.

As in, it would make the weapon implement almost always the best choice? I could see that.

Allowing charisma to hit off a successful Find Flaws sounds good too but feels a bit derivative from the Investigator...

I kinda like giving the weapon implement by default in addition to your chosen starting implement, probably replace the AOO with cha-to-hit. It'd solidify the Thaumaturge more as the pure martial it is clearly intended to be and removes an option from the pool that is frankly going to be very difficult for the other implements to compete with since its so directly tied to your gameplan. Thaumaturge can get the AOO back with a feat at 6th, same as all the other non-fighter pure martials.

[Golurkcanfly]

John R. wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I mean the Investigator is about that 'one really good strike' because the nature of their combat mechanics specifically limit them in that way. You're only allowed to Devise once a round anyways.

EA is the opposite, it's a lasting buff that scales with the number of attacks you can make each turn. It's more akin to a Flurry Ranger's Hunt Prey.

I'm not really sure what you're going to support with with the rest of the kit either.

Amulet's Abeyance is kind of support-y, but it's a reaction. It doesn't interact with your action economy. Lantern is also a little support-y, but passive. Wand is a damage tool (undertuned imo but still). Chalice is a selfish buff and Weapon is offensive and requires you to be in the thick of things.

If the goal is to be more supportive than offensive, the class doesn't really do anything to enable that.

Well we still have 4 implements TBD and those will likely fill completely different roles than the others.

I think Find Flaws/Esoterica Antithesis also distracted me to compare it to the Investigator when, after all the item feats, it almost feels more like an Alchemist in some cases.

Looking over feats that CAN offer (not will offer) support in combat (even in the form of improving others’ combat capabilities) we’ve got:

Esoteric Lore
Familiar feats [x3] (that’s a stretch on how helpful they’d be in combat)
Root to Life
Scroll feats [x4]
Talisman feats [x3]
Magic Circle feats [x2]
One More Activation
Handy Esoterica feats [x2]
Know-It-All
Share Antithesis
Thaumaturge’s Investiture
Esoteric Reflexes
Shared Warding
Ubiquitous Antithesis
Wonder Worker
Total: 24

The feats that will always benefit the Thaumaturge alone in combat are:

Divine Disharmony
Esoteric Warden
Turn Away Misfortune
Rule of Three
Sympathetic Weakness
Twin Weakness
Implement’s Flight
Sever Magic
Trespass Teleportation
Implement’s Assault
Total: 10

So yes, the Thaumaturge, as is, TOTALLY has the feat support for a straight up...

When it's sufficiently MAD enough that you can't really afford to make flavorful choices, it's a bit too far.

That's exacerbated even further by the best dump stat being the one that arguably makes more sense than the current one as the Key Ability Score, given the current mechanics of the class.

[Castilliano]

What I found funny is that list of feats was supposed to support the argument that Thaumaturgists were good martials. Honestly I thought it was meant to undermine the notion because they're mostly underwhelming. I would feel obligated to take the few good ones. No, scratch that, to get a martial Dedication.

And people have noted that even an 18 Cha will find difficulty making the DCs of many knowledge skills (especially vs. bosses) w/ later levels leaning toward a lot of crit failures/wasted rounds. Swashbucklers have ways to mitigate that thankfully and they're not juggling a set of five skills.

[Golurkcanfly]

Yeah, the Recall Knowledge implementation is a related, but somewhat separate issue. I think regardless of whether CHA to hit will be added, condensing the Find Flaws roll to a single skill (or no skill at all) is a must, be it Thaumaturgy Lore Recall Knowledge, Gather Information (could also be with Thaumaturgy Lore), a non-skill ability like Mental Scan, etc.

But I believe both are worth addressing.

[Cyder]

A lot of classes in PF2e are MAD, anything remotely gish is mad, wild order druids, warrior muse bards etc. I think that is just part of the design choices for PF2e.

There are higher level feats (rule of 3s) to help deal with this for Thaumaturge. I think its intentional at low levels you have to have some trade offs. Higher str but lower dex (or the other way around). I don't think they are supposed to be as accurate or as hardy as a ranger on the front lines else why play a ranger if I can more reliably boost damage with the Thaumaturge +all the other utility it has.

[Squiggit]

Cyder wrote:

A lot of classes in PF2e are MAD, anything remotely gish is mad, wild order druids, warrior muse bards etc. I think that is just part of the design choices for PF2e.

I don't think those are the best examples. The game's two true gish-y magic users (the magus and summoenr) both get features that mitigate MAD. As does the Investigator. Shapeshifters (wild order druids included) get static attack modifiers and damage bonuses specifically so they aren't too MAD.

That pretty much just leaves gish Wizards/Bards/Clerics/Sorcerers/Witches left over... all builds that are pretty routinely criticized for being bad and difficult to put together.

[Jedi Maester]

John R. wrote:

I guess this is all a bit off topic so to bring it back, yeah, maybe the class is a bit MAD but maybe it’s only due to the perception of what people want it to be versus what the class is. It looks like a class that wants to do everything but really, each individual Thaumaturge should only be built to do a few things well. The benefit of the class is you get to decide what those few things are.

This makes me wonder if implements should be the major subclass choice. We've seen references throughout these forums on what people want this class to be: antiquarian, monster hunter, connections finder, etc. Maybe each of these should be the subclass? The implements could be more akin to choosing your deity on top of choosing your cleric subclass? This might help more people get what they want out of the class, but not ruin it for those who like the class as is.

Each subclass might offer a different take on Find Flaws/Esoteric Antithesis. Maybe one works closer to recall knowledge, while another focuses on making new weaknesses. This might help with different KAS, like the rogue subclasses.

EDIT: Forgot this thread is about being MAD, and why I wrote this to begin with. But subclasses can help nail down one aspect of the class to focus on so you can more readily ignore others. So if you want to focus on RK, then maybe your subclass starts with the ability to share those bonuses. So you can focus on the mental stats, and let the rest of your party worry more about the physical stats. And if you want to focus more on the physical side, a subclass can help you get more out of FF/EA so that you compare with other martial.

When a class has too much to worry about, that seems to be solved by subclasses, so maybe they could really help alleviate the MAD issue.

[Golurkcanfly]

Cyder wrote:

A lot of classes in PF2e are MAD, anything remotely gish is mad, wild order druids, warrior muse bards etc. I think that is just part of the design choices for PF2e.

There are higher level feats (rule of 3s) to help deal with this for Thaumaturge. I think its intentional at low levels you have to have some trade offs. Higher str but lower dex (or the other way around). I don't think they are supposed to be as accurate or as hardy as a ranger on the front lines else why play a ranger if I can more reliably boost damage with the Thaumaturge +all the other utility it has.

If the concern is balance, then there are better ways to do that than to straightjacket the Thaumaturge into needing to pump two offensive stats at the minimum just to maintain accuracy. Especially when one stat is used just for this one feature and not much else and it already has other issues keeping up in terms of accuracy.

For example, you could just have it deal less damage if you're worried about it outperforming the Ranger. That way you can afford greater build freedom and make sure the math works while keeping balance in check.

And just because the issue exists for other character types does not mean it needs to exist for new ones as well, as we can see demonstrated by the Investigator.

[Golurkcanfly]

Jedi Maester wrote:

John R. wrote:

I guess this is all a bit off topic so to bring it back, yeah, maybe the class is a bit MAD but maybe it’s only due to the perception of what people want it to be versus what the class is. It looks like a class that wants to do everything but really, each individual Thaumaturge should only be built to do a few things well. The benefit of the class is you get to decide what those few things are.

This makes me wonder if implements should be the major subclass choice. We've seen references throughout these forums on what people want this class to be: antiquarian, monster hunter, connections finder, etc. Maybe each of these should be the subclass? The implements could be more akin to choosing your deity on top of choosing your cleric subclass? This might help more people get what they want out of the class, but not ruin it for those who like the class as is.

Each subclass might offer a different take on Find Flaws/Esoteric Antithesis. Maybe one works closer to recall knowledge, while another focuses on making new weaknesses. This might help with different KAS, like the rogue subclasses.

I also second the ideas as subclasses, but I don't think they need to be terribly involved to sell the flavor.

INT gets Antiquarian (which is a really good name), and uses Recall Knowledge.
CHA gets "Connection Finder," and uses Gather Information
WIS gets "Monster Hunter" (could use a better name) and uses Seek or something (Seek is kinda better than the other two so maybe something else)

Or, FF just doesn't use a skill at all and each subclass is just the choice of Ability Score, and that choice helps the player explore whatever flavor they wish to see.

[Squiggit]

John R. wrote:

I guess this is all a bit off topic so to bring it back, yeah, maybe the class is a bit MAD but maybe it’s only due to the perception of what people want it to be versus what the class is

Again, I don't really see this. No one has really talked some crazy build trying to do everything at once. They've mostly talked about Charisma to use Find Flaws and Strength or Dexterity to hit people.

That's not trying to accomplish everything, that's literally just the most basic functionality of the class.

[John R.]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

WIS gets "Monster Hunter" (could use a better name) and uses Seek or something (Seek is kinda better than the other two so maybe something else)

PSYCHODERMIST!!!

[Golurkcanfly]

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

WIS gets "Monster Hunter" (could use a better name) and uses Seek or something (Seek is kinda better than the other two so maybe something else)

PSYCHODERMIST!!!

Call it Inquisitor >.>

[Jedi Maester]

Squiggit wrote:

John R. wrote:

I guess this is all a bit off topic so to bring it back, yeah, maybe the class is a bit MAD but maybe it’s only due to the perception of what people want it to be versus what the class is

Again, I don't really see this. No one has really talked some crazy build trying to do everything at once. They've mostly talked about Charisma to use Find Flaws and Strength or Dexterity to hit people.

That's not trying to accomplish everything, that's literally just the most basic functionality of the class.

So I just built one for a game, and I kind of feel the MAD. But it really is in connection to how I want to play the class, not so much what the class requires. I'm playing a wand user with high Cha and Int, trying to see how effective I can be playing to class more as a support role. So I'm focusing on the knowledge skills and anything I can use Cha for as well as my wand.

Without the weapon implement or Str/Dex, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to actually use Esoteric Antithesis. I can already feel that I need those physical stats just to use some weapon. Would the class work much better if I built that way, sure. But I've always wanted to play an antiquitarian in this style. It's be nice if the class allowed that.

[Golurkcanfly]

Jedi Maester wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

John R. wrote:

I guess this is all a bit off topic so to bring it back, yeah, maybe the class is a bit MAD but maybe it’s only due to the perception of what people want it to be versus what the class is

Again, I don't really see this. No one has really talked some crazy build trying to do everything at once. They've mostly talked about Charisma to use Find Flaws and Strength or Dexterity to hit people.

That's not trying to accomplish everything, that's literally just the most basic functionality of the class.

So I just built one for a game, and I kind of feel the MAD. But it really is in connection to how I want to play the class, not so much what the class requires. I'm playing a wand user with high Cha and Int, trying to see how effective I can be playing to class more as a support role. So I'm focusing on the knowledge skills and anything I can use Cha for as well as my wand.

Without the weapon implement or Str/Dex, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to actually use Esoteric Antithesis. I can already feel that I need those physical stats just to use some weapon. Would the class work much better if I built that way, sure. But I've always wanted to play an antiquitarian in this style. It's be nice if the class allowed that.

Allowing more viable styles within the class space is always fun, and since the Psychic really just needs math adjustments and maybe some tweaks to Psyches, I think this is a noble goal.

[pixierose]

Arachnofiend wrote:

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

John R. wrote:

Yeah, I think if they stick with charisma as the key ability, using charisma to hit, even just for the weapon implement would be nice as you're essentially coaxing the weapon to help guide itself to your target.

I think restricting it to the weapon implement would be a huge misstep, since the weapon implement is already incredibly strong.

As in, it would make the weapon implement almost always the best choice? I could see that.

Allowing charisma to hit off a successful Find Flaws sounds good too but feels a bit derivative from the Investigator...

I kinda like giving the weapon implement by default in addition to your chosen starting implement, probably replace the AOO with cha-to-hit. It'd solidify the Thaumaturge more as the pure martial it is clearly intended to be and removes an option from the pool that is frankly going to be very difficult for the other implements to compete with since its so directly tied to your gameplan. Thaumaturge can get the AOO back with a feat at 6th, same as all the other non-fighter pure martials.

I both love this idea because I think it would be really intuitive, and if the Thaumaturge will have martial proficiency's then I would be okay with getting the weapon one for free but I would want a second one at first level. What your implements are mean a lot imo in terms of fluff and customization. And I wouldn't want to be limited.

[Jedi Maester]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

I also second the ideas as subclasses, but I don't think they need to be terribly involved to sell the flavor.

INT gets Antiquarian (which is a really good name), and uses Recall Knowledge.
CHA gets "Connection Finder," and uses Gather Information
WIS gets "Monster Hunter" (could use a better name) and uses Seek or something (Seek is kinda better than the other two so maybe something else)

Or, FF just doesn't use a skill at all and each subclass is just the choice of Ability Score, and that choice helps the player explore whatever flavor they wish to see.

I think this is a perfect viable option, but I also wouldn't mind seeing something more involved. Between using scrolls, talismans, pacts, and other magical tricks without spells, I could see a version where the KAS remains Cha. Each subclass could allow a different focus that pushes toward secondary ability scores.

For instance, the current version of FF+EA would gear itself toward a martial build with Str or Dex. The antiquitarian could have a different ability that doesn't require using a weapon and allow focusing on Int, like focusing on mimicking spells with items. Using recall knowledge to determine weaknesses and weak saves to pick the right spell from the right item. Idk. Inquisitor could focus on seeing not just hidden monsters, but hidden magic and connections everywhere. Or maybe a reliquarian to focus on religious artifact. Just spitballing random ideas.

[Golurkcanfly]

Jedi Maester wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

I also second the ideas as subclasses, but I don't think they need to be terribly involved to sell the flavor.

INT gets Antiquarian (which is a really good name), and uses Recall Knowledge.
CHA gets "Connection Finder," and uses Gather Information
WIS gets "Monster Hunter" (could use a better name) and uses Seek or something (Seek is kinda better than the other two so maybe something else)

Or, FF just doesn't use a skill at all and each subclass is just the choice of Ability Score, and that choice helps the player explore whatever flavor they wish to see.

I think this is a perfect viable option, but I also wouldn't mind seeing something more involved. Between using scrolls, talismans, pacts, and other magical tricks without spells, I could see a version where the KAS remains Cha. Each subclass could allow a different focus that pushes toward secondary ability scores.

For instance, the current version of FF+EA would gear itself toward a martial build with Str or Dex. The antiquitarian could have a different ability that doesn't require using a weapon and allow focusing on Int, like focusing on mimicking spells with items. Using recall knowledge to determine weaknesses and weak saves to pick the right spell from the right item. Idk. Inquisitor could focus on seeing not just hidden monsters, but hidden magic and connections everywhere. Or maybe a reliquarian to focus on religious artifact. Just spitballing random ideas.

I could see either, and while I prefer choosing your KAS (so you could have bookish and uncharismatic Thaums for your INT Thaum and such), as long as the class is less MAD and no longer needs to pump 5 separate skills to keep up like in the current version, it's a net positive.

[egindar]

Keying Find Flaws off of Wis instead of Cha, as some have suggested is their preference for Find Flaws' flavor in other threads, would also work pretty well to reduce thaumaturge's MADness, I think.

[Zwordsman]

Late to hte party but.

I'm still a fan of tying Esoteric Lore into Find Flaws, into a core class abilty. Instead of making it a lore anything, make it a class feature that scales similiarly to a class DC. Eventually hitting master or legendary.

Its used purely for Monster ID and Find Flaws. Find flaws still works similiarlly- You can crit fail and not get Anti. you fail and get anti-but its fluffed differnetly that your'e forcing a resourance (not that you somehow have its weakness but have no clue). Succes and crit success still work the same.

Then let hte class choose between Int and Cha as its main one. WHich'll let you build a skillful one or a charasmatic one. (wis is fine but i'm just not a wis person)

I'm fine with the class still giving trained in the 5 skills. It makes sense thematically but with this set up I listed above. You are no longer forced to keep up with it. You're free to go in directions you want.

Further. it removes Find Flaws from Recall Knowledge. Which gets rid ofo the issue of multiple knowledge requirement, and gets rid of the awkwardness of having a primary and often used class ability. That you do not roll. that hte GM has to roll in secret-but then half tell you if you failed or not purely on the basis of metaknowledge for the damage rolls. Plus it means you are incharge of your own agency. You roll the dice that might screw you. Instead of your GM rolling that dice in secret. it won't be "fake it till you make it" which I personally dislike.

If its tied into a class setting and is a specific roll. It can't be paired with skill feats either.

Just wraping it all into a new combined class feature and offering the choice of primary greatly reduces the MAD issue, and gives customization options, while reducing the problematic gameplay elements.

Tying the Antithesis hit w/ abiltiy stat to hit is also reasonable to pair with the above. Though it also isn't strictly required as badly.

[Golurkcanfly]

Zwordsman wrote:

Late to hte party but.

I'm still a fan of tying Esoteric Lore into Find Flaws, into a core class abilty. Instead of making it a lore anything, make it a class feature that scales similiarly to a class DC. Eventually hitting master or legendary.

Its used purely for Monster ID and Find Flaws. Find flaws still works similiarlly- You can crit fail and not get Anti. you fail and get anti-but its fluffed differnetly that your'e forcing a resourance (not that you somehow have its weakness but have no clue). Succes and crit success still work the same.

Then let hte class choose between Int and Cha as its main one. WHich'll let you build a skillful one or a charasmatic one. (wis is fine but i'm just not a wis person)

I'm fine with the class still giving trained in the 5 skills. It makes sense thematically but with this set up I listed above. You are no longer forced to keep up with it. You're free to go in directions you want.

Further. it removes Find Flaws from Recall Knowledge. Which gets rid ofo the issue of multiple knowledge requirement, and gets rid of the awkwardness of having a primary and often used class ability. That you do not roll. that hte GM has to roll in secret-but then half tell you if you failed or not purely on the basis of metaknowledge for the damage rolls. Plus it means you are incharge of your own agency. You roll the dice that might screw you. Instead of your GM rolling that dice in secret. it won't be "fake it till you make it" which I personally dislike.

If its tied into a class setting and is a specific roll. It can't be paired with skill feats either.

Just wraping it all into a new combined class feature and offering the choice of primary greatly reduces the MAD issue, and gives customization options, while reducing the problematic gameplay elements.

Tying the Antithesis hit w/ abiltiy stat to hit is also reasonable to pair with the above. Though it also isn't strictly required as badly.

I agree that the MADness isn't as bad if you have the choice of ability score, and if I had to choose one, it'd be the choice of ability score.

But I do think both would be nice to have, even if it came with a mild reduction in damage output or something.

Also not using Recall Knowledge or Gather Information or any particular separate Action would help prevent any sort of nastiness from unintended feat interactions, and they could always introduce a feat to let you Recall Knowledge for free when you use Find Flaws like the Ranger and Investigator.

[The Raven Black]

To all those who want the option of Class stat boost going into WIS or INT in addition to CHA, would you ever choose CHA over INT or WIS ?

[The Raven Black]

MEATSHED wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

d10 would be good. I think it could use Expert Fortitude too (or reflex ).

Right now it and the monk are the only non-casters that don't start with two saves at expert (the monk starts with all three). Even Magus and Summoner start with two expert saves.

Feels pretty rough on a class that seems designed to be a frontliner AND has basically two primary stats right now.

The starting profile of the Thaumaturge is that of the Bard, plus Medium armor, minus spellcasting.

Definitely not a Martial profile. Only full casters have only 1 save at Expert (usually Will). The Thaumaturge now joins them, as befits a master of the mystic arts (just kidding).

Its very strange that they don't have 2 good saves, its not like they are against full casters getting 2 as warpriests do and Thaumaturge doesn't really do a lot to warrant them not having 2.

The only starting profile other than Thaumaturge that has D8, Expert Perception, Trained Fortitude, Trained Reflex and Expert Will is the Bard.

I think they litteraly took the starting profile of the Occult caster and added martial weapons and medium armor proficiencies to make it more Martial.

The most similar Frontliner is the Magus who adds :
- stat boost to attack stat
- Expert Fortitude
- Wave casting

but loses Expert Perception.

[Camata022]

The Raven Black wrote:

To all those who want the option of Class stat boost going into WIS or INT in addition to CHA, would you ever choose CHA over INT or WIS ?

I would if I were looking to be a Face for my party. I'm normally Scout, Face, or library in my party cause I'm not too concerned about dealing the most damage. So if I can martial but still be as strong in charisma as a caster I'd be happy (same with wisdom)

Edit: Forgot to add that I would also like EA to work with some charisma skills like intimidation and deception or something like that, so that no matter what KAS you still get four Main skills to boosted by EA.

[Lanathar]

The Raven Black wrote:

To all those who want the option of Class stat boost going into WIS or INT in addition to CHA, would you ever choose CHA over INT or WIS ?

Excellent point to be fair

[MEATSHED]

The Raven Black wrote:

To all those who want the option of Class stat boost going into WIS or INT in addition to CHA, would you ever choose CHA over INT or WIS ?

I could see people going CHA over INT, probably not either of them over WIS though.

[The Raven Black]

Thanks for your answers.

I love the CHA take on Thaumaturge because I think it fits the concept perfectly.

But if I had the choice, I would never take it. I would take INT to get the most of the RK skills and lores, or I would take WIS for Will saves and Perception/Initiative.

I might consider CHA if there was support for CHA skills in the class: getting them for free, having free use of them when Finding flaws, or somesuch.

In fact, I would love for the Thaumaturge to be excellent at a single CHA skill and use it to also power their abilities through deceiving / intimidating / diplomating the multiversal reality / their target.

In fact, changing Find Flaws from RK to one of the CHA skills check might be best IMO. Just like the Swashbuckler's Panache engine rewards relevant skills.

[Lanathar]

This is an interesting idea. I have noticed how little synergy this class has with Cha beyond the forced synergy by the new ability