Frozencaveman |
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I don't understand why Paizo keeps making these sort of feats where "you have an extra tail/appendage/something that lets you manipulate things, sort of, but only briefly and only in specific scenarios, and you can't do anything other than these fringe cases that only come up with both hands full"
It's so limited that I've never thought of taking it as an ancestry feat, and i especially don't want to take it as a 10th level class feat, where usually most classes start to get their really good feat options.
So, i propose a rework. Leave the base ability as is, but add a new option:
As a single action you can focus on your telekinesis to make it act as a third hand in all ways. While concentrating on this telekinetic hand, you may manipulate, hold, or grab items as if it were a free hand, even if your other hands are occupied. Any round you cease to concentrate you drop anything you were holding using Automatic Telekinesis.
This hand has reach of 10 feat, which increases by 5 feet every 5 levels above 10. As part of concentrating on this hand, you may use the hand to strike or perform an athletic check using a spell attack roll against a creature within reach. Using this ability is considered an amp effect. If you hit, you deal 2d12 damage plus your spellcasting modifier as force damage. This increases by 1d12 at level 12 and 19.
On a critical hit with a strike, you may choose to trip, grapple, or shove the creature, as if you succeeded at an athletics check against the creature.
YuriP |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't understand why Paizo keeps making these sort of feats where "you have an extra tail/appendage/something that lets you manipulate things, sort of, but only briefly and only in specific scenarios, and you can't do anything other than these fringe cases that only come up with both hands full"
I agree!
All my players runs from any class feat so situational. This come to a point where some of them just ask me "Ei! Give me a hint of a good dedication with good feats at level x,y,z. Because these levels my class don't have anything good" and even when I respond "there's nothing in this class feat list in this level that you like?" and the answer usually are "no there's only too restrict or situational feats".
Maybe this is only from my niche of players but all they do this, they run out from any class feat that's too restricted or situational.
And I heve to agree here. A class lvl 10 feat that just allows you to move objects from a place to other even been useful sometimes is too situational that probably none of my players will take this.
Karmagator |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I was also puzzled what one of the weakest level 5 ancestry feats was doing as a level 10 class feat. I imagine a previous version of the feat was a lot stronger and got toned down, but the level wasn't changed accordingly. Not that I would take this even for a level 1 class feat, mind you.
My idea would be a simpler solution. The current feat becomes a free add-on for the distant grasp subconscious mind. It is neat flavour-wise for a psychic that just starts out and as a little something you can do.
At level 10 you get a feat that expands on it:
[b]Expanded Telekinesis[b] Feat 10
Prerequisite: Autonomic Telekinesis
Your telekinetic abilities reach farther than ever before. You can now perform simple Interact actions within 30 feet of you, with the same limitations as Autonomic Telekinesis. You can also use any point within those 30 feet that you have line of effect to as the point of origin for your psi cantrips, allowing you to use them at longer ranges and to get around your foes' cover.
Evindyl |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I was also puzzled what one of the weakest level 5 ancestry feats was doing as a level 10 class feat. I imagine a previous version of the feat was a lot stronger and got toned down, but the level wasn't changed accordingly. Not that I would take this even for a level 1 class feat, mind you.
My idea would be a simpler solution. The current feat becomes a free add-on for the distant grasp subconscious mind. It is neat flavour-wise for a psychic that just starts out and as a little something you can do.
At level 10 you get a feat that expands on it:
[b]Expanded Telekinesis[b] Feat 10
Prerequisite: Autonomic TelekinesisYour telekinetic abilities reach farther than ever before. You can now perform simple Interact actions within 30 feet of you, with the same limitations as Autonomic Telekinesis. You can also use any point within those 30 feet that you have line of effect to as the point of origin for your psi cantrips, allowing you to use them at longer ranges and to get around your foes' cover.
Love this, because I think the other thing that has to be considered, is curb appeal. Especially at the moment, with none of this built into chargen software, this all sits on paper. I go over and over and over that PDF, but it actually wasn't until tonight, reading all of this and then looking, that I was like, why would I pick this at all? 3 feats down from this is Unleash Dark Persona, which could potentially augment all of my damaging spells, AND give me hit points?
But no ... I'm going to take the feat that let's me open doors without a skill check. Uh huh.
Frozencaveman |
I think they should let it work as another hand for free, but maybe change the level to 12, so you can't pick it up as an archetype, which is where the balance issues come in, or just make the prerequisite something that the archetype can't pick up so balance can be preserved for other classes. But as a full caster that doesn't use weapons i don't see any issues in just letting it work as another hand, maybe just add a no activating magic items clause? Since pathfinder 2e balance is super tight I can see this as a good way of future proofing
Cyder |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think they should let it work as another hand for free, but maybe change the level to 12, so you can't pick it up as an archetype, which is where the balance issues come in, or just make the prerequisite something that the archetype can't pick up so balance can be preserved for other classes. But as a full caster that doesn't use weapons i don't see any issues in just letting it work as another hand, maybe just add a no activating magic items clause? Since pathfinder 2e balance is super tight I can see this as a good way of future proofing
If someone wants to spend their level 20 class feat for this why not let them? It doesn't compare with another 10th level slot or similar.
Lightning Raven |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know why they're so afraid of extra limbs in this edition. In PF1e, the biggest "danger" was the fact that the more limbs you had, the more attacks you would make on a Full-Round Action. Which eventually lead to the infamous Kasatha Gunslinger.
In this edition, no matter how many limbs or weapons you use, the number of attacks won't scale beyond the expected, these useless feats are a waste of space AND they actually are pretty weird, since these limbs often both have the strength and dexterity to attack proficiently while not being able to do the most basic stuff (wrapping around an object to hold it aloft, for example).
QuidEst |
I don't know why they're so afraid of extra limbs in this edition. In PF1e, the biggest "danger" was the fact that the more limbs you had, the more attacks you would make on a Full-Round Action. Which eventually lead to the infamous Kasatha Gunslinger.
In this edition, no matter how many limbs or weapons you use, the number of attacks won't scale beyond the expected, these useless feats are a waste of space AND they actually are pretty weird, since these limbs often both have the strength and dexterity to attack proficiently while not being able to do the most basic stuff (wrapping around an object to hold it aloft, for example).
There's a bunch of stuff in the game balanced around having exactly two hands. Two-hander vs. one-hander gives us the game's approximate value of a hand: two damage per die size. That's about twice the value of "all martial weapons" vs. "all simple weapons".
Frozencaveman |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lightning Raven wrote:There's a bunch of stuff in the game balanced around having exactly two hands. Two-hander vs. one-hander gives us the game's approximate value of a hand: two damage per die size. That's about twice the value of "all martial weapons" vs. "all simple weapons".I don't know why they're so afraid of extra limbs in this edition. In PF1e, the biggest "danger" was the fact that the more limbs you had, the more attacks you would make on a Full-Round Action. Which eventually lead to the infamous Kasatha Gunslinger.
In this edition, no matter how many limbs or weapons you use, the number of attacks won't scale beyond the expected, these useless feats are a waste of space AND they actually are pretty weird, since these limbs often both have the strength and dexterity to attack proficiently while not being able to do the most basic stuff (wrapping around an object to hold it aloft, for example).
Yeah, i get that it's a balance point not to have a full third hand, it would give two handers a shield for example and make one handed weapons obsolete. It still doesn't make the current third hand feats worth anything. They really should be allowed to do anything a hand can do except hold an item or make skill checks that have the attack trait, because that's where I see the balance issues occuring. I don't find many problems with that except for the odd one handed range weapon like crossbow or the new guns plus a shield or wand... But since it costs a feat i think it's fine. Maybe if they made a follow up feat to grant this i could see it being fine, but I don't like that it's not an option at all
Frozencaveman |
Bringing it back to psychic, i think that a third hand that can't hold items (or can with an action cost) and can't make skills with the attack trait would be fine. Maybe with an amp they can make skills with the attack trait, using a spell attack roll instead would be interesting to add and make it worth a 10th level slot
Lightning Raven |
QuidEst wrote:Yeah, i get that it's a balance point not to have a full third hand, it would give two handers a shield for example and make one handed weapons obsolete. It still doesn't make the current third hand feats worth anything. They really should be allowed to do anything a hand can do except hold an item or make skill checks that have the attack trait, because that's where I see the balance issues occuring. I don't find many problems with that except for the odd one handed range weapon like crossbow or the new guns plus a shield or wand... But since it costs a feat i think it's fine. Maybe if they made a follow up feat to grant this i could see it being fine, but I don't like that it's not an option at allLightning Raven wrote:There's a bunch of stuff in the game balanced around having exactly two hands. Two-hander vs. one-hander gives us the game's approximate value of a hand: two damage per die size. That's about twice the value of "all martial weapons" vs. "all simple weapons".I don't know why they're so afraid of extra limbs in this edition. In PF1e, the biggest "danger" was the fact that the more limbs you had, the more attacks you would make on a Full-Round Action. Which eventually lead to the infamous Kasatha Gunslinger.
In this edition, no matter how many limbs or weapons you use, the number of attacks won't scale beyond the expected, these useless feats are a waste of space AND they actually are pretty weird, since these limbs often both have the strength and dexterity to attack proficiently while not being able to do the most basic stuff (wrapping around an object to hold it aloft, for example).
The thing is that this argument kinda forgets the context. We're not talking about Barbarians or Fighters wielding 2h weapons and a Sturdy Shield or something like that. We're talking a caster picking it up at level 10 and other characters only having access to it at level 20, which is pretty much the point when s+!+ starts to hit the fan power-wise, that's exactly why I mentioned the kind of competition it would be having.
Given the context, it wouldn't be so insane. Otherwise just design it to work as a hand for everything, except wielding weapons (making it just a "floating" unarmed attack).
Cyder |
I have no problem with the psychic getting a 3rd full hand for the price of a 10th level feat, they should be able to do cool things like raise a shield with a telekinetic hand, that's on point for the fantasy, also still costs an action and is comparable to the Shield spell (though probably still not as good as a cantrip). The still need to spend actions on it.
If they really need to they can say it can't be used in whatever the specific circumstances they are worried about.
But really a 10th level feat or level 20 and 3 class feats for MC is a steep cost for what is mostly a gimmick.
Cyder |
Oh yeah, by far a caster with a third hand would not have any of the issues I listed, but that's exactly why I suggest keeping it a full class psychic only feat. Limit the access so no other class can break the game
I am not too concerned about a level 20 fighter spending 3 feats in psychic having a situational advantage of an extra hand since they are still action limited. Its level 20, it should be heroic and a little bit broken and it will be over in 1 or 2 sessions (usually play time at 20 tends to be super short).