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Hello I've been a pathfinder player for almost ten years and I've been a subscriber for all of second edition, and well, my bookshelf is running out of space. Am I the only one interested in a digital only subscription? with the option to opt in for physical books in a case by case.
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Paizo has repeatedly said this won’t happen, both in order to support brick-and-mortar stores and preserve their main source of profits.
I would subscribe to a digital only package. I had a subscription previously, but the minute I had a full set, I'd flog the lot on E-Bay and keep the PDFs. Eventually, I got tired of doing that and cancelled my subs altogether. Now I buy books intermittently, whenever WotC are having a quiet month. :D
Paizo has repeatedly said this won’t happen, both in order to support brick-and-mortar stores and preserve their main source of profits.
This. It's important to remember that TTRPG growth is done typically by word of mouth, organized play and these physical stores. If Paizo encourages folks to not go to their stores, it simply won't be profitable for them to carry Paizo books.
What would a digital subscription get you that buying the pdf on release doesn't do?
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Just buy another bookshelf.
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What would a digital subscription get you that buying the pdf on release doesn't do?
Mainly automatize the process. I sometimes get distracted and forget to watch out for new product for a certain time, which can make getting up-to date at once quite costly. A subscription would keep that from happening.
And while I gladly keep my AP subscription, truth of the matter is that I sometimes even forget to take them out of the package and put them in the shelf, because I solely use the PDFs anyways. Which basically means, that I'm paying 13$ of shipping cost in addition to what I would pay for the pdf only (thanks to the Legacy Paizo advantage.
Well I better not think about it too hard. The APs still look good in my shelf. ^^
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What would a digital subscription get you that buying the pdf on release doesn't do?
The two benefits I would hope for would be;
1: get the PDF earlier than the street date,2: qualify for the Paizo Advantage discount on PDFs purchased as part of the digital subscription.
The only subscriptions Paizo has at present are for PDF-only products (PFS and SFS scenarios).
So the only one they could add at present would be one for the bounties. I would love it if they did that.
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What would a digital subscription get you that buying the pdf on release doesn't do?The two benefits I would hope for would be;
1: get the PDF earlier than the street date,
2: qualify for the Paizo Advantage discount on PDFs purchased as part of the digital subscription.
If they offered a digital subscription you wouldn't get it early. The only reason print subs sometimes get theirs early (not always, and it's explicitly not a perk of subscribing, the perk is the free PDF not the early PDF) is that they can't keep it from you once they've charged you for it, and they don't charge you until your product ships. So without shipping, there's no early PDF.
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If they offered a digital subscription you wouldn't get it early. The only reason print subs sometimes get theirs early (not always, and it's explicitly not a perk of subscribing, the perk is the free PDF not the early PDF) is that they can't keep it from you once they've charged you for it, and they don't charge you until your product ships. So without shipping, there's no early PDF.
That is a strange assertion. As the possible risk of derailing the thread...why do you believe that?
Hello I've been a pathfinder player for almost ten years and I've been a subscriber for all of second edition, and well, my bookshelf is running out of space. Am I the only one interested in a digital only subscription? with the option to opt in for physical books in a case by case.
*Sighs wistfully* I wish my bookshelves where running out of space.
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If they offered a digital subscription you wouldn't get it early. The only reason print subs sometimes get theirs early (not always, and it's explicitly not a perk of subscribing, the perk is the free PDF not the early PDF) is that they can't keep it from you once they've charged you for it, and they don't charge you until your product ships. So without shipping, there's no early PDF.That is a strange assertion. As the possible risk of derailing the thread...why do you believe that?
Because various Paizo staffers over the years have said as much every time one of these threads come up. The free PDF is tied to when they charge your card, because it is a perk of the subscription. Once you've been charged, it's yours and as a digital product that's when it needs to be made available. Maybe they would be allowed to not make it available until the street date, but to my knowledge that's the reason it gets granted when it does.
The point is the same logic wouldn't apply to digital-only subscriptions because there's no warehouse queue that they need to go through, so they could just authorize all of the payments immediately on the day of release.
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If they offered a digital subscription you wouldn't get it early. The only reason print subs sometimes get theirs early (not always, and it's explicitly not a perk of subscribing, the perk is the free PDF not the early PDF) is that they can't keep it from you once they've charged you for it, and they don't charge you until your product ships. So without shipping, there's no early PDF.What would a digital subscription get you that buying the pdf on release doesn't do?The two benefits I would hope for would be;
1: get the PDF earlier than the street date,
2: qualify for the Paizo Advantage discount on PDFs purchased as part of the digital subscription.
So what you're actually saying is, they wouldn't issue an early PDF based on the current business model, but that model could potentially be changed if a digital subscription was on the table. Charge all digital subscribers at the same time, no need to piss about with shipping, and make the download available at that time, ideally before the date it becomes available to non-subscribers.
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So what you're actually saying is, they wouldn't issue an early PDF based on the current business model, but that model could potentially be changed if a digital subscription was on the table. Charge all digital subscribers at the same time, no need to piss about with shipping, and make the download available at that time, ideally before the date it becomes available to non-subscribers.If they offered a digital subscription you wouldn't get it early. The only reason print subs sometimes get theirs early (not always, and it's explicitly not a perk of subscribing, the perk is the free PDF not the early PDF) is that they can't keep it from you once they've charged you for it, and they don't charge you until your product ships. So without shipping, there's no early PDF.What would a digital subscription get you that buying the pdf on release doesn't do?The two benefits I would hope for would be;
1: get the PDF earlier than the street date,
2: qualify for the Paizo Advantage discount on PDFs purchased as part of the digital subscription.
Sure, and kill their relationships with the FLGS around the country. If they offered PDFs early for all PDF subscribers there would be people that switch from their brick and mortar stores to the digital subscriptions, and that would cause Paizo's relationships with those stores to collapse. This is not the first time a digital subscription has been proposed, it won't be the last, and their reasons for not doing it are the same every time. It would hurt their relationships with game stores - that's the biggest reason this is not going to happen.
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Devil’s advocate. Does Paizo need traditional printing and brick & mortar stores?
With the introduction of Pathfinder Infinite Paizo has a contract with OneBookShelf and could theoretically pivot toward a PDF/POD model that ignores the traditional revenue stream of having product in bookstores.
Onyx Path Publishing went that direction out of necessity when they became the license holder of old White Wolf product, and rather than seeing the demand for their product decrease - fans started campaigns to get them to do small traditional runs for the FLGS’ alongside the POD and PDF sales.
New models can work without immediately destroying existing business relationships
Devil’s advocate. Does Paizo need traditional printing and brick & mortar stores?
With the introduction of Pathfinder Infinite Paizo has a contract with OneBookShelf and could theoretically pivot toward a PDF/POD model that ignores the traditional revenue stream of having product in bookstores.
Onyx Path Publishing went that direction out of necessity when they became the license holder of old White Wolf product, and rather than seeing the demand for their product decrease - fans started campaigns to get them to do small traditional runs for the FLGS’ alongside the POD and PDF sales.
New models can work without immediately destroying existing business relationships
The difficulty is simple. How do you get people to see your game without word of mouth? If you wreck your relationship with the brick/mortar stores then you basically lose your openly visible organized play and shelf space. Your game then only spreads based on your active playerbase and any advertising campaigns you run. This is not enough to keep a game alive.
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Devil’s advocate. Does Paizo need traditional printing and brick & mortar stores?
With the introduction of Pathfinder Infinite Paizo has a contract with OneBookShelf and could theoretically pivot toward a PDF/POD model that ignores the traditional revenue stream of having product in bookstores.
Onyx Path Publishing went that direction out of necessity when they became the license holder of old White Wolf product, and rather than seeing the demand for their product decrease - fans started campaigns to get them to do small traditional runs for the FLGS’ alongside the POD and PDF sales.
New models can work without immediately destroying existing business relationships
Paizo may not need print at this point, but is that a reason to kill those lines of sales, and also potentially kill those businesses?
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Paizo absolutely needs print - there is no question about that.
Any RPG company that wants to be any kind of successful leader in the industry absolutely needs their physical books to be sold in stores.
PDF is absolutely a popular option, but print books are very much still king by a wide margin in the RPG publishing world.
Alienating stores around the country, or not having your books available in stores is the last thing an RPG publisher wants … assuming their goal is to stay profitable and grow that is.
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I’m not sure I agree with the idea that brick and mortar stores are the only things that keep a game line alive. The second biggest TTRPG Kickstarter of the year thus far was for Exalted: Essence, a barely advertised pared down edition of Exalted 3rd Edition - audiences find games that they like regardless of storefront presences.
The previously mentioned Onyx Path, and Free League for example have both stayed profitable and grown with a business model that is built around a mix of Kickstarter exclusives and limited print runs.
I also don’t think exploring a new business model immediately means burning bridges with the existing distribution chain. Pivoting toward a limited traditional run supplemented with POD doesn’t automatically mean that it will ruin the relationship with FLGS’ or harm their business or Paizo’s profits.
Paizo for example published both the hardback and softcover versions of their titles - what if one of those lines went POD/PDF while the other remained traditional print?
With paper shortages, supply chain issues running rampant across the industry, there are many different ways to approach getting content into players hands. The idea that the only method that can work is the one that has worked in the past is not necessarily accurate without exploration.
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Onyx Path has had consistent allegations of worker mistreatment, has had to oust numerous predators from their staff, and is often rumored to be running a treadmill of Kickstarters to pay for the writers on previous obligations; the last time I looked, they had something like 87 projects on their weekly blog updates. Not a company I would want Paizo to follow in the footsteps of.
A quick look on Onyx Path's blog and it looks like 80+ projects, and it looks like they have 10 kickstarters and like 5 or 6 projects up on backerkit.
There is no way they are doing all of that to a high level of quality and without overworking people.
Yeah a model build on a pyramid scheme of kickstarters does not seem like the option. Still I doubt a digital subscription would impact brick and mortar much. Pure PDF buyers are hardly the same audience…. and paizo does already sell print directly…….
Admittedly I hardly ever go into brick and mortar game stores anymore….. but their focus is mostly board and card games anyway.
I must have spent thousands of pounds on RPG stuff over the last ten years and I can't recall one item I bought from a brick and mortar store. Most of my purchases have been digital docs via DriveThruRPG or physical books I ordered off Amazon, Zatu or Gameslore, none of which operate brick and mortar premises that you can walk in off the street.
I only bought physical copies of PF AP's because the subscription model gave no alternative, and I immediately sold those books on to someone else.
Paizo should definitely continue to offer physical copies of their books, but I doubt their relationship with brick and mortar stores is so important that it precludes the possibility of a digital subscription.
Plus, less shipping means less warehouse staff, and we all know how much Jeff likes sacking his staff for nebulous reasons. :D
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Pure PDF buyers are hardly the same audience…. and paizo does already sell print directly…….
Probably depends on why yo do the one over the other. To me there's a simple reason I don't go to a FLGS. Because where I live there is none.
This said, at least the Rule books I like to have as HCs, only that international shipping cost basically doubles the price for those, so I won't do that.
I might even have to cancel my AP subscription due to changes made for international shipments (jury's still out on that one).
A digital subscription model would allow me to pay directly to Paizo without having to throw a lot of additional money out of the window.
I am aware though that international market - compared to the US market - is probably an afterthought when it comes to decisions like that. And I could easily use our localized version instead which would solve some of those problems.
But that I'm mainly a Paizo pdf buyer is more a thing of necessity, not one of preference.
Yeah I buy rules as print, although have shifted to pocket editions. Much easier in size (for carrying and bookcase space), but that is all ordered online anyway.
I used to subscribe to paizo, but shipping is so prohibitively expensive these days that I just order locally (in the EU) now.
Still I doubt that the “pure PDF” buyer would be the same as person buying in a LFGS, as that (as far as I see around me) has become a small minority for RPGs.
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Yeah a model build on a pyramid scheme of kickstarters does not seem like the option. Still I doubt a digital subscription would impact brick and mortar much. Pure PDF buyers are hardly the same audience…. and paizo does already sell print directly…….
Admittedly I hardly ever go into brick and mortar game stores anymore….. but their focus is mostly board and card games anyway.
If, as others have suggested, a digital subscription gave you your PDF before the street date, it would absolutely impact brick and mortar stores.
Admittedly, digital comics have not really hurt comic stores, but digital comics also don't typically come out earlier than the print editions with the exceptions of a few digital-first books that release in smaller chunks first and then print.
However, if the benefit to a digital sub was everything early, there are definitely people that would switch just to get their stuff as early as possible.
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I would love a digital subscription, but tbh I'm fine with how things are as is since I can buy the pdf same day.
If they did a thing where they sold codes to lgs that can be redeemed online for pdf access, I'd also do that
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I don’t see how a company having issues with employee treatment that they have already worked through precludes a company currently struggling with employee treatment issue from examining alternative content delivery options, but okay.
As for the other charges against Onyx Path: OPP purged the predatory employee in their midst, did you want them to do more than publicly fire them? As for Kickstarter shenanigans, the company kickstarts all of their product, it is a part of their funding model. Rich Thomas has answered the charge that it’s a shell game more than once.
None of that really is really material to my point because my statement wasn’t: “Paizo should release exactly like Onyx Path.” If was to say that there are alternatives to Traditional Print in the way Paizo is currently doing it. Onyx was referenced in example of the model they use.
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If, as others have suggested, a digital subscription gave you your PDF before the street date, it would absolutely impact brick and mortar stores.
Admittedly, digital comics have not really hurt comic stores, but digital comics also don't typically come out earlier than the print editions with the exceptions of a few digital-first books that release in smaller chunks first and then print.
However, if the benefit to a digital sub was everything early, there are definitely people that would switch just to get their stuff as early as possible.
This argument confuses me. People who are only buying PDFs don’t go to FLGS’ in the first place. People with physical print subscriptions don’t either. Physical subscribers get their pdf when their physical copy ships which is almost always before street date without the industry grinding to a halt because of it.
I just don’t see how the person who is likely to be satisfied with the earliest version of the product regardless of whether it is physical or digital is likely buying from their FLGS in the first place.
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You don't think if there was a way to get the PDF before street date no matter what that it woudln't cause people to drop both buying habits at their FLGS and the print subs? The thing about the free PDF with print subs is that is not, and never has been, a guarantee of getting it early. The perk is the free PDF, and sometimes (not often mind you, but sometimes) subscribers even get it after the street date of the the PDF. And when that happens they complain about it, despite the earliness not being an actual benefit.
This comes even more into play with the current shipping environment. If you set a release date for "early PDF for PDF subscriptions" and then had to move the physical release back because of the supply chain issues that are plaguing the entire world, do you now release that PDF more than a month before the physical book? Do you not think a PDF being available for a full month before a print copy wouldn't impact the print copy's sales? If you do you're delusional.
I think the group of people who are not already subscribers, AND who care enough about getting info a few weeks early that we switch to having a PDF (instead of print) for a RPG book would be quite limited.
It is not like it gets you a plot, or whatever weeks early. Just a few mechanics and lore… I think the impact would be quite limited.
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I don’t think disagreeing on the impact of a books being available earlier to some subscribers makes me delusional. I also don’t think that a month early is a hard rule for those asking for a sub. Details can be arranged to best benefit both Paizo and the customer interested in such a sub.
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The biggest concern is anything that Paizo would do that would have a negative impact on FLGS sales. They already have a fairly bad reputation with the stores because of the exclusivity of the free PDF* that encourages direct buying. There are a lot of stores that only special order Paizo products on demand and some that won't seller Paizo products at all. Even small impacts would be just one more thing to alienate game stores.
*btw, Games Workshop is now adding a unique code in the back of their printed books that is used to activate the book in the Warhammer+ online app. Its been said before, but Paizo could if they wanted to add a unique code to the back of their books as well that would allow the owner to redeem for a free copy of the PDF. That would go a long way to repairing the retailer relationship.
The biggest concern is anything that Paizo would do that would have a negative impact on FLGS sales. They already have a fairly bad reputation with the stores because of the exclusivity of the free PDF* that encourages direct buying. There are a lot of stores that only special order Paizo products on demand and some that won't seller Paizo products at all. Even small impacts would be just one more thing to alienate game stores.
*btw, Games Workshop is now adding a unique code in the back of their printed books that is used to activate the book in the Warhammer+ online app. Its been said before, but Paizo could if they wanted to add a unique code to the back of their books as well that would allow the owner to redeem for a free copy of the PDF. That would go a long way to repairing the retailer relationship.
Wouldn’t GW have a different business model though? I see their core product as bing miniatures…providing different channels to get the rules facilitates buying more miniatures, IMHO. The difference for Paizo is that the books ARE their core product
Maybe I missed some of your point though…agree that the capability exists to add unique codes to their books. I do wonder about the PDF buyer versus the book buyer. IF their was a PDF subscription, I think they’re still tie them to the physical product release dates…which *may* address some FLGS concerns, but likely make it less attractive for the subscriber.
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People who are only buying PDFs don’t go to FLGS’ in the first place. People with physical print subscriptions don’t either. Physical subscribers get their pdf when their physical copy ships which is almost always before street date without the industry grinding to a halt because of it.
I just don’t see how the person who is likely to be satisfied with the earliest version of the product regardless of whether it is physical or digital is likely buying from their FLGS in the first place.
Umm... I don't really mean to way in on this one way or the other, but your example is close to the mark for me personally, but is also incorrect. I think it is more complicated than that.
I do go the the FLGS and I also subscribe to multiple product lines with Paizo, both Starfinder and Pathfinder. I go to the FLGS (multiple FLGS' actually) and I get my print books in the mail and get the PDFs of those books when they ship. I also subscribe to maps and tiles and accessories. I did not always do so. There have been many product lines that I have cancelled in the past only to restart later and that has to do with my finances as well as the fact that I will often check out stuff for a product line in the store or with folks who bring those products to the FLGS when we do Organized Play at the FLGS. If I like the product and the line, I will subscribe if I can afford to. But, I very seldom just blindly enter a subscription without seeing the product quality first and make sure it is something I like. Also, for folks like me, PFS is often the only way I can play (I get to occasionally GM a home game with friends, but only GM). I played in PFS a lot before the dark times; before COVID. I think Paizo and the Organized Play folks having a good relationship with that brick and mortar FLGS is kind of essential to allowing us to play in their space.
If I have to cancel a subscription because things are tight financially, I will later pick up those physical items at the FLGS, if I can, when things are going better for me later on down the road. I also buy other things at the FLGS because Paizo products are not the only thing I buy there. I also fund a lot of Kickstarters. The last couple of years, I have done more digitally, but I used to spend plenty of money in the FLGS while I was there before COVID, even if it was only on snacks and refreshments, while we played PFS. If the FLGS's in my area die due to COVID-influenced factors I have no idea where I will be able to do organized play anymore. I can't go there now, but I hope to play in the FLGS again in the future and I don't want that endangered.
When it comes to product preference between digital and physical - I want both. During games, when I GM, I like to use the PDF behind the screen (it is easier and quicker to search that way for rules). But, my players like the books at the table, as well as Pathbuilder on their phones. I also use the PDFs at organized play events for PFS. But, when I am reading alone, I love to read the physical books and I am a collector and I like to have them on my shelves.
Early PDFs are great and all, but I would not unsubscribe if they were no longer available; I have understood from the beginning that early PDF is an unintended perk. Besides, I almost never get it earlier than a couple days before the release date, anyway.
Onyx Path has had consistent allegations of worker mistreatment, has had to oust numerous predators from their staff, and is often rumored to be running a treadmill of Kickstarters to pay for the writers on previous obligations; the last time I looked, they had something like 87 projects on their weekly blog updates. Not a company I would want Paizo to follow in the footsteps of.
Wow, that sucks. I'm a big fan of W20. It's unfortunate that White Wolf is such a dumpster fire that Onyx Path has basically been carrying that franchise.
Also chalk me up as someone who always wants physical books in addition to PDF's. Machines are going to fail.
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Brick and mortar stores are the only way for people in a lot of regions to get physical products without paying huge shipping costs and having to wait weeks to get the product. This is especially important for products that only function at tables if they are physical (map tiles, GM screens, etc).
If stores stopped carrying Paizo products, Paizo would take a massive hit in markets like Australia (and foreign markets ARE important to the bottom line.)
For example of how bad shipping can be - the bestiary pawn box (I chose this example because it is a product where you need it to be physical to use it at tables) is $45. The shipping cost to western Australia is $50. If you convert that to Australian money, that's a total of $130 AUD. If I can't find the bestiary pawn box in a physical store, I just can't justify buying it, because the shipping doubles the price.
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This maybe a tangent but...What if there were no discount for PDF? What if the PDF was the same as the price of the book and you could have a physical sub (get PDF for free) or a digital sub (pay full price)? Then would that still hurt FLAG business? I would love to pay full price for the PDFs actually.
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This maybe a tangent but...What if there were no discount for PDF? What if the PDF was the same as the price of the book and you could have a physical sub (get PDF for free) or a digital sub (pay full price)? Then would that still hurt FLAG business? I would love to pay full price for the PDFs actually.
That sounds like a great way to lose existing customers and discourage new subscribers, so... No?
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This maybe a tangent but...What if there were no discount for PDF? What if the PDF was the same as the price of the book and you could have a physical sub (get PDF for free) or a digital sub (pay full price)? Then would that still hurt FLAG business? I would love to pay full price for the PDFs actually.That sounds like a great way to lose existing customers and discourage new subscribers, so... No?
Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but that is not good for me. I am willing to pay more per product (depending on the product), but I cannot afford to pay anywhere near double per product in order to get both the printed copy and the PDF that I am getting now. This idea would force me to choose between getting a PDF or a physical copy for each subscription product line this is done to and would not encourage me to part with any additional money, while making me get less than I am now; very not ideal.
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This idea would force me to choose between getting a PDF or a physical copy for each subscription
That wasn't how I read the suggestion, so maybe I misunderstood something? To me, it sounded like having the choice between getting the print product (+ a free pdf) or the digital product only (for the price of the print product). So you either get both or you get only the pdf. But in both cases, you pay the same price.
At the moment, thanks to the legacy advantage, I get the physical product at the price of the pdf AND I get the pdf basically for free (option 1).
Unluckily, because of international shipping, I pay additional 13$ shipping cost for a single issue, and as it seems, thanks to some changes to tax laws, it seems that since july I have to pay additional taxes on top of it (plus I have to wait a lot longer for U.S. imports over 20 $ to arrive at my house).
Which means that I'd happily pay 25$ for a pdf-only subscription because that would actually spare me around 10 bucks of expenses per issue. This is 120 $ a year; if you think about it, for me to keep the subscription borders on sheer insanity, and Paizo doesn't even profit from it.
This idea would force me to choose between getting a PDF or a physical copy for each subscriptionThat wasn't how I read the suggestion, so maybe I misunderstood something? To me, it sounded like having the choice between getting the print product (+ a free pdf) or the digital product only (for the price of the print product). So you either get both or you get only the pdf. But in both cases, you pay the same price.
At the moment, thanks to the legacy advantage, I get the physical product at the price of the pdf AND I get the pdf basically for free (option 1).
Unluckily, because of international shipping, I pay additional 13$ shipping cost for a single issue, and as it seems, thanks to some changes to tax laws, it seems that since july I have to pay additional taxes on top of it (plus I have to wait a lot longer for U.S. imports over 20 $ to arrive at my house).
Which means that I'd happily pay 25$ for a pdf-only subscription because that would actually spare me around 10 bucks of expenses per issue. This is 120 $ a year; if you think about it, for me to keep the subscription borders on sheer insanity, and Paizo doesn't even profit from it.
Yeah, you are right. That's what I get for multitasking without coffee.