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Between every implement requiring a free hand (including weapon requiring another free hand) and Empowerment also requiring a free hand, the thaumaturge seems way too overly pushed into a specific weapon style.
The weapon implement requires an actual weapon too, so that even pushes you away from unarmed (although just not using that implement can work there).
I sort of get why the class works this way, but imo it feels a little thematically restraining on a class that doesn't feel like it should be quite that narrowly defined.
IMO, having some more flexibility, such as the ability to have a 'combat glove' implement for unarmed combat or the ability to bind an implement to a shield or offhand weapon or ... whatever would feel pretty good and open up more options for the class.
For what it's worth I personally really like the dueling style and would probably use that regardless, but the thaumaturge doesn't feel as thematically liked to the specific style so I think more options for twf/thf/snb/unarmed would only benefit the class.
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Actually a friend of mine just pointed out, weapon empowerment's benefit IS equal to two die size increase at all levels, meaning it really is just a damage patch for one handed weapons, so if you use a two handed weapon as a weapon implement, you can't empower it, but it just works and you can hit things with your d12, which on average is equal to your empowered d8.
In theory, dual wielding should work fine too for the same reason.
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We're going to see a lot of Gnomish Flickmace wielding Thaumaturges I imagine. Failing that, a whip feels like the best bang for your buck. Really those are the only options that stick out to me for the Thaumaturge specifically.
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Actually a friend of mine just pointed out, weapon empowerment's benefit IS equal to two die size increase at all levels, meaning it really is just a damage patch for one handed weapons, so if you use a two handed weapon as a weapon implement, you can't empower it, but it just works and you can hit things with your d12, which on average is equal to your empowered d8.
I don't see how that really makes anything better. Going from your d8+2 one handed weapon to a d12 two hander just means you trade away your hand economy and essentially lock yourself out of implements in combat and in exchange gain, uh, basically nothing?
Calling it a 'patch' feels a bit misleading because there's already a trade off between the two weapon categories. A mechanic that just removes that trade-off in favor of one weapon makes sense for a class with a really strong weapon fantasy like the Swashbuckler... but I'm not convinced that that level of restrictiveness makes sense for the Thaumaturge.
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I like that the class favours one-handed, personally. But I can see how it feels restrictive.
One handed just feels... cooler. And because it often needs support, it's neat when magus and this class use it really well.
I like that the class favours one-handed, personally. But I can see how it feels restrictive.
One handed just feels... cooler. And because it often needs support, it's neat when magus and this class use it really well.
Oh, I agree one-handed styles are definitely really cool. I just don't think that should be the only option for thaumaturges and right now the class kind of locks you down in that direction.
One-handed weaposn are pretty good in PF2 anyways and just with the various options Thaumaturges have for using tools and items it'd still be a super relevant playstyle, even if it worked better with unarmed combat or had some feat support for intermingling implements with shields or two-handers.
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I can't believe I'm about to say this, but, the Juggler archetype might actually be really good for Thaumaturges.
As long as you’re Juggling fewer than your maximum number of items, you have a free hand. You can wield weapons you are Juggling (but not shields or other items) as long as they can be wielded in one hand. For example, while you Juggle a dagger in one hand and wield a shield in the other, you are wielding the dagger but still have a free hand to Cast a Spell with a material component. Juggling two or more weapons with one hand doesn’t allow you to use feats that require two weapons each held in a different hand.
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I can't believe I'm about to say this, but, the Juggler archetype might actually be really good for Thaumaturges.
As long as you’re Juggling fewer than your maximum number of items, you have a free hand. You can wield weapons you are Juggling (but not shields or other items) as long as they can be wielded in one hand. For example, while you Juggle a dagger in one hand and wield a shield in the other, you are wielding the dagger but still have a free hand to Cast a Spell with a material component. Juggling two or more weapons with one hand doesn’t allow you to use feats that require two weapons each held in a different hand.
I mean, jugglers and people with weird item related psychic powers both frequent carnivals, so its sort of a thematic synergy?
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I personally like the one handed focus overall; it makes a lot of sense to me that a class themed around using items would favor a one hand weapon.
My only real gripe it that I feel like the class should allow the use of a crossbow, even if it's just having a way to reload a hand crossbow with an implement in hand
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I like the one handed thing. Doesnt seem too restrictive for me. The reloading of a one handed crossbow thing is kinda solved with the level 7 thing that allows switching implements. But would be cool to See some more crossbow support.
The level 7 thing only lets you hotswap implements, it doesn't let you put it away and end with an open hand. A familiar with independent + manual dexterity would, over the course of two turns, take an implement from you, you reload, and the next turn the familiar plops the implement back in hand. Not great for a regular crossbow, but probably not bad with a repeating crossbow. (I'm totally not planning a repeating crossbow in one hand, wand in the other)
I can't believe I'm about to say this, but, the Juggler archetype might actually be really good for Thaumaturges.
As long as you’re Juggling fewer than your maximum number of items, you have a free hand. You can wield weapons you are Juggling (but not shields or other items) as long as they can be wielded in one hand. For example, while you Juggle a dagger in one hand and wield a shield in the other, you are wielding the dagger but still have a free hand to Cast a Spell with a material component. Juggling two or more weapons with one hand doesn’t allow you to use feats that require two weapons each held in a different hand.
one hand gets a weapon implement. The other hand juggles one weapon and also some other implement. You get to play two-weapon style tricks with the "implement in the off hand" bonus to damage. I can dig it.
kinda silly looking, though.
I like the one handed thing. Doesnt seem too restrictive for me. The reloading of a one handed crossbow thing is kinda solved with the level 7 thing that allows switching implements. But would be cool to See some more crossbow support.The level 7 thing only lets you hotswap implements, it doesn't let you put it away and end with an open hand. A familiar with independent + manual dexterity would, over the course of two turns, take an implement from you, you reload, and the next turn the familiar plops the implement back in hand. Not great for a regular crossbow, but probably not bad with a repeating crossbow. (I'm totally not planning a repeating crossbow in one hand, wand in the other)
Might want to watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2zhNnBhnB0
It clears up some confusion on what familiars can and cannot do.
Might want to watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2zhNnBhnB0
It clears up some confusion on what familiars can and cannot do.
I'm talking about drop the implements, the familiar picks it up, and on the next turn, the familiar puts it in you hand, which are within it's ability. I know they cant reload the crossbow in your hands
Note that not only is there no reason to use two-handed weapons, RAW, you are actively penalized because switching implements as a free action to activate their abilities only works for implements you are holding in *one hand*.
So, if you use the weapon implement with a bow or greatsword, you can't actually swap it out for your Lantern or Chalice with the feature.
IIRC you can drop a hand off a two-handed weapon as a free action, so you *could* still do this, I think; but it seems more like a jank interaction than an intended thing, especially since you couldn't hotswap the weapon back out. Could work okay for a bastard sword or something though, I suppose.
I do love me some one handed weapons and i like that finesse is a def option.
For me though, the main restriction feels on the ranged side. While the weapon implement's range implies melee only (10ft is a whip after all), most of the abilities would work fine on a ranged character. But there aren't many not-two handed. There are some thrownweapons- requiring the rune to get the weapon back. Or uncommon/rare access (shuriken).
For one handed ranged weapons I think its really a sling (reloading problematic i imagine) or access to the auto hand xbow.Though they dcan totally rock a two handed ranged one but it requires mostly ignoring implement uses. Which feels sad.
(the above is the main reason I want the wand implement to work with Find Flaw and antithesis)
I'm pretty sure these are intended balance points. It is hard to get damage bonuses to ranged attacks more than once per round, because because attacking more often than melee is the big advantage of non-reload ranged weapons. A composite longbow that got all that bonus damage on every hit would probably become the default bow user, I imagine.
Bonus sources to splash damage are nice and all, but I think the Thaumaturge will be better with an alchemist as a teammate than alchemy themselves. They don't actually need to discover a weakness when they can create one. But discovering the weakness will help any allies who can actually capitalize on it, and no one does that better than the alchemist.
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I like the one handed thing.
I also like the one handed thing, but I have friends who like dual wielding and giant two handed weapons and shields and unarmed combat and crossbows and guns and archery a lot too.
And I don't really see a compelling reason why all of them need to be hedged out of the class.
I like the one handed thing.I also like the one handed thing, but I have friends who like dual wielding and giant two handed weapons and shields and unarmed combat and crossbows and guns and archery a lot too.
And I don't really see a compelling reason why all of them need to be hedged out of the class.
But are they hedged out? Other than empowerment, what class features/feats can a duel wielder or two handed weapon fighter not get? Maybe not all classes should be fully optimized for every possible weapon option. Especially for a class that already has some pretty strong damage bonuses attached to it.
But are they hedged out? Other than empowerment, what class features/feats can a duel wielder or two handed weapon fighter not get? Maybe not all classes should be fully optimized for every possible weapon option. Especially for a class that already has some pretty strong damage bonuses attached to it.I like the one handed thing.I also like the one handed thing, but I have friends who like dual wielding and giant two handed weapons and shields and unarmed combat and crossbows and guns and archery a lot too.
And I don't really see a compelling reason why all of them need to be hedged out of the class.
The Amulet, Chalice, Lantern, and Wand implements require you to be holding them to use them, so you can only use one of the implement abilities even though you get three implements over the course of your career.
Thinking about it... the crossbow in particular seems like it should be a very in-theme weapon for a thaumaturge. I'm not sure quite why I say that, but it really does feel that way to me.
I would like to mention, that, in reference to all this talk that thaumaturges are locked out of 2 h weapons and dual weilding; you can swap out implements as a free action at level 7 whenever you want. You do have to be holding it one handed, so you'll have to do some grip shenanigans, but you could very easily use a bow (although you'll still miss out on on the damage booster)
Atm, if you have a weapon implement, the only fighting styles that get the hard no are 2h weapons, but, well, imo that makes sense. At the very least, ranged fighting is still very much on the table
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But are they hedged out? Other than empowerment, what class features/feats can a duel wielder or two handed weapon fighter not get?
You cannot use any implement except for weapon in combat if you don't have a free hand, in addition to losing empowerment.
Maybe not all classes should be fully optimized for every possible weapon option.
Okay sure, not 'every' possible option, but at the same time is there really a compelling reason why the class should be so specific?
In terms of combat styles, the only class in the game that's as narrow as the Thaumaturge is the Swashbuckler, a class basically built around an extremely specific weapon fantasy... but even the Swashbuckler can use all their class features with unarmed combat.
Does that really make sense, that a class that doesn't even particularly relate to a unique weapon fantasy happens to be the class with the narrowest pool of combat styles in the game?
It just seems completely needless to me.
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Yeah, the main problems are the empowered implement and the implements itself, as the first feature is just to compensate the fact that one of your hands are always busy.
So maybe the solution is changing how the implements are used, instead of wielding them, you just have them worn and you can use them that way, having the interact actions to draw, use and stow them already inside the activation. Could increase the number of actions of some for immersion, increasing the power of course to account the action increase, like the goblet going from 3 to 6hit points but 2 actions.
That would let use any weapon, have the hand shields and so on, and would not need empowered implement anymore as a class feature.