Undead PCs and immunities (With a side of hype for Book of the Dead)


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Verdyn wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Eh, I like the options. Gimme.

Not everyone liked all the innate stuff you had to take (like Weapon Proficiencies, Spell Resistance, etc).

Let's use a simple example to illustrate how wrong you are:

According to the SRD a PF1 Dwarf gives you 8 options base with the option to swap them out for 49 other abilities. Toss in favored class options (39), racial feats (21), and racial traits (13) and that makes 91 options, nearly all open to you right from level 1.

The same source lists 1 (two if you count the clan dagger, three if we're counting starting HP) starting abilities. Then you get 8 subtypes of Dwarf to choose from. Finally, there are 32 feats. That is, at best, 43 options, only 24 of which are open at level 1.

PF2 cut down the tree that was PF1 and is literally selling it back to you book-by-book but also figuratively doing it again at levels 5, 9, 13 & 17.

Rsky gave an opinion/preference. They literally can't be wrong.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I imagine the Play Dead Feat will likely give a static bonus to Deception checks or something to do what it says on the tin.

Plus, remember that a lot of Feats are kind of in play to ensure that you have the means of doing whatever it is you're attempting to do. So while you could easily spend and action to drop prone and then make a Deception to attempt to play dead; that does require GM fiat. If, for whatever reason, your GM tells you "no, you can't do that", your choice in Feat selection says otherwise.

I mean, they could still say no I suppose. But that wouldn't be very cash money of them. Lol


Playing dead might also require the skeleton to learn to quench the burning witchlights it has instead of eyes, and to somehow loosen up whether magical binding force is keeping it's bones attached to each other.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As a Lvl 1 Feat, that likely just happens as part of the action to do it.


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Ly'ualdre wrote:
As a Lvl 1 Feat, that likely just happens as part of the action to do it.

My point is that could be why it is a feat and not as simple as just "lie on the floor"


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Tender Tendrils wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
As a Lvl 1 Feat, that likely just happens as part of the action to do it.
My point is that could be why it is a feat and not as simple as just "lie on the floor"

Ah, I didn't parse that. I thought you meant more like there should be a separate Feat to do that, which then leads into the Play Dead.

What's curious is that it seems to be just Skeletons that get it. I feel like they should all be capable of pretending to be a dead body. Maybe they all have their own version of the Feat. Who knows.

I'm for one glad to see Vampire is an option. Not that I thought it wouldn't be. But, I've a Vampird character from 1e that I was going to remake using the Dhampir Heritage, but now I don't have to. Unfortunately, I doubt there will be any way to work in her having the Eternal Youth ability or a way to make her a Small Human. So, Halfling it is.


I mean you can just ask your GM. I am pretty doubtful that undead are going to be playable in PFS, so home games ahoy.

And being small vs. medium comes with almost no difference to your actual capacity, so it's a pretty easy ask.


Ly'ualdre wrote:
I'm for one glad to see Vampire is an option. Not that I thought it wouldn't be. But, I've a Vampird character from 1e that I was going to remake using the Dhampir Heritage, but now I don't have to. Unfortunately, I doubt there will be any way to work in her having the Eternal Youth ability or a way to make her a Small Human. So, Halfling it is.

Speaking of vampires, I wonder how they will handle their need to rest inside of a coffin. I remember playing one back in the days of 3.5 (along with the glorious feeling of being a lot of levels behind the rest of the party) and having to carry my own coffin around was actually somewhat entertaining for me as an added layer of challenge.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Her personal bodyguard and servant is a Dhampir who carries her coffin on his back. She's usually resting, unless something happens that requires her explicit attention.


Ly'ualdre wrote:
Her personal bodyguard and servant is a Dhampir who carries her coffin on his back. She's usually resting, unless something happens that requires her explicit attention.

This reminds me that in the Ancestry Guide there is a type of vampire, the Strigoi, who merely fall asleep when exposed to sunlight, which makes me curious if we will see more about them in Book of the Dead, since it was mentioned that every "classic" undead is going to have new variants.

On that note, if Graveknights turn out to be an archetype, it would be cool if you could grab something of an equivalent of the ancestry "lineage" feats based on the way that the character died.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Given how Archetypes work, I'm not sure about the Graveknights getting something like that; mostly because it would take a few levels to come online. I suppose they could as far as like, alternating their energy attacks. If I had to guess. They'd probably make Ruinous Weapon part of their Dedication Feat, loosely define "how" they died there. Then, their Devistating Blast would be an additional Feat later. Otherwise, how they died typically doesn't matter. Unless you had something else in mind?

They did say every Undead in the book will have some kind of variant. So maybe if Graveknights have variations, it'll make the "Lineage" thing more meaningful. Maybe we could see variants with Light and Medium Armor; that way, every class can kind of get in on it. Unless, the Dedication Feat gives you Proficiency with Heavy Armor. If so, they definitely need a creature similar to Lich and Graveknights, for the less armored Classes.

As far as the Vampires and other Undead, I hope so too. There was a picture during the keynote which showed what I assumed to be a Vetala or Vetalarana (the picture with the Undead Rabbit on the left). So it seems possible they'll actually include the Strigoi as well. I'd like to see the Baetriovs or Sayona made into an actual subspecies of Vampire, or even just see new breed altogether.


The lore of graveknights needing to wear heavy armor is pretty inconsistent. Most do, like the examples in the bestiaries for both editions, but in AP material that's a pretty different story.

**Spoiler notice because I don't know how to format spoilers**
105. The Inferno Gate, has the party going up against graveknights who guard the eponymous gate, all of which wear breastplates rather than the traditional heavy armor. I could be wrong but there is also an article about graveknights in Giantslayer, and I don't think all of them wear heavy armor, either.

I'm a bit of a graveknight fan, and this was something that always stuck out to me as odd about them.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The need for it to be heavy armor was always a weird flex, since not all warriors wear it. Even still, I would love some more "types" of Lich/Graveknights for some of the other archetypical characters. Like, a rogue or assassin who was so dedicated to his work that upon his death his spirit fused which his murder weapon, which let's him rejuvenate if not destroyed. Or a Lich+Graveknight for a Magus. Would be interesting.


I'm honestly surprised we haven't had a weapon-centric graveknight-type enemy yet. The closest I can think of offhand is the Corrupted Relic, though that only needs to be a weapon sometimes.

Admittedly it's an easy change to homebrew in, which could be why Paizo never bothered making one. With the graveknight already there, and it being real easy to swap the regeneration mechanic from "eat person who wears my armor" to "eat person who wields my weapon," there may not have been enough mechanical distinction for them to bother taking up the page space. Not to say that a weapongeist or whatever couldn't easily be mechanically distinct, but that seems like a reasonable rationale.


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Another semi-common undead feature that comes to my mind is the ability to create spawn from slain creatures, such as what happens with wights, vampires, shadows etc.

I doubt that it will be included, unless as a really, really high level feat, but I think something along these lines could be accomplished by using the animal companion rules so it wouldn't overlap with other companions and bog down the game with a single player taking much longer to go through each turn.


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EldritchGrace wrote:

Another semi-common undead feature that comes to my mind is the ability to create spawn from slain creatures, such as what happens with wights, vampires, shadows etc.

I doubt that it will be included, unless as a really, really high level feat, but I think something along these lines could be accomplished by using the animal companion rules so it wouldn't overlap with other companions and bog down the game with a single player taking much longer to go through each turn.

My guess is that a Create Spawn-style ability would be flavored as a summon rather than a full companion, though Create Undead does exist, and there's always room for more goodies... It just seems likely given Animate Dead is there to be cribbed from.


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EldritchGrace wrote:

Another semi-common undead feature that comes to my mind is the ability to create spawn from slain creatures, such as what happens with wights, vampires, shadows etc.

I doubt that it will be included, unless as a really, really high level feat, but I think something along these lines could be accomplished by using the animal companion rules so it wouldn't overlap with other companions and bog down the game with a single player taking much longer to go through each turn.

You could also have something temporary where you have a reaction or something when you kill something living to turn it into a temporary spawn (similar to the hexblade ability in 5e where if you kill something you get to raise its ghost to fight for you for a short time).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I like the idea of it being a summon or temporary effect. Maybe if functions as a weaker Animate Dead, only lasting up to half the amount of time (so 5 rounds if sustained).


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Ly'ualdre wrote:
I like the idea of it being a summon or temporary effect. Maybe if functions as a weaker Animate Dead, only lasting up to half the amount of time (so 5 rounds if sustained).

And you can explain the differences between it and the monster version of the ability by it being a more accelerated version - normally spawn rise in 1d4 rounds, but for a player ability you probably don't want to be waiting till the combat is probably already over, so the player version makes them rise immediately, but the consequence of the accelerated process is it damages the spawn in a way that causes it to be unstable and only rise temporarily.


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That or the rushed process ends in an incomplete amount of control, so the spawn just wanders off to do its own thing after the ability times out.

Only trick I could see would be to insert language to make sure the feat can be taken at the appropriate time depending on your undead form, since some undead are more powerful than others are and would require different levels of investment.


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Perpdepog wrote:

That or the rushed process ends in an incomplete amount of control, so the spawn just wanders off to do its own thing after the ability times out.

Only trick I could see would be to insert language to make sure the feat can be taken at the appropriate time depending on your undead form, since some undead are more powerful than others are and would require different levels of investment.

Well, archetypes already do this (having the same feat as a class or other archetype but being at a different level).


On a topic that, for most undead, tends to coincide with slaying creatures: a lot of intelligent undead require some form of sustenance (flesh for ghouls, blood for vampires, souls for the Lich's phylactery etc.), which in turn leads me to think it might be used as a balancing factor, depending on how they plan to design the various archetypes, although I don't remember if PF2e has rules for food deprivation and the like.


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EldritchGrace wrote:
On a topic that, for most undead, tends to coincide with slaying creatures: a lot of intelligent undead require some form of sustenance (flesh for ghouls, blood for vampires, souls for the Lich's phylactery etc.), which in turn leads me to think it might be used as a balancing factor, depending on how they plan to design the various archetypes, although I don't remember if PF2e has rules for food deprivation and the like.
Starvation and Thirst wrote:
Typically characters eat and drink enough to survive comfortably. When they can't, they're fatigued until they do. Without water, after a number of days equal to a creature's Constitution modifier + 1, the creature takes 1d4 damage each hour that can't be healed until it quenches its thirst. After the same amount of time without food, it takes 1 damage each day that can't be healed until it eats.

I'm not sure when fatigued starts applying though. The number of days thing seems to be just for the damage.


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Honestly, I think that being able to develop a animal-companon-tier minion for your spawn could be pretty cool as an undead. Possibly as an "Undead Lord" archetype? Like, anyone could get the Skeleton or Zombie minion, but if you're a vampire, you could have vampire spawn minions instead, and so forth... and possibly a skill/general feat or two that would represent having more minions who were weak enough that they didn't really matter in combat, but you could have them carry stuff or run messages or whatever.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
EldritchGrace wrote:

Another semi-common undead feature that comes to my mind is the ability to create spawn from slain creatures, such as what happens with wights, vampires, shadows etc.

I doubt that it will be included, unless as a really, really high level feat, but I think something along these lines could be accomplished by using the animal companion rules so it wouldn't overlap with other companions and bog down the game with a single player taking much longer to go through each turn.

Or they could just apply a scaling limit as to how many undead an undead PC can control along with bad effects when they lose control of one or more minions. Once you have reached your limit, spawning more undead minions becomes counterproductive.


David knott 242 wrote:


Or they could just apply a scaling limit as to how many undead an undead PC can control along with bad effects when they lose control of one or more minions. Once you have reached your limit, spawning more undead minions becomes counterproductive.

This reminds me of a line in the "Create Spawn" ability from the Vampire entry in the Bestiary, which alludes to a GM-dependent cap of how many controlled spawns a vampire might have. If such a feature ever becomes available to a player character, I'd expect a more defined limitation.

On that topic, one thing I would really like to see is some undead-specific downtime activities (such as the aforementioned spawning, which is listed as a downtime activity in the vampire's entry), I believe it would help to sell the fantasy of playing an undead creature.


EldritchGrace wrote:
On a topic that, for most undead, tends to coincide with slaying creatures: a lot of intelligent undead require some form of sustenance (flesh for ghouls, blood for vampires, souls for the Lich's phylactery etc.), which in turn leads me to think it might be used as a balancing factor, depending on how they plan to design the various archetypes, although I don't remember if PF2e has rules for food deprivation and the like.

It's possible, though I don't think it'd be a balancing point for liches, since PF liches don't need to consume souls to continue existing, or at least none of the ones I've read about do.

Sovereign Court

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I had a spawn feat for my vampire ancestry that was a downtime activity, which I thought made the most sense.

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