Dark Archives Hype


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Noticed we didn't have a thread for this yet, so what is everyone hyped about for Dark Archive? Thus far we know:

2 New classes:
* Thaumaturge - magical non-caster that uses various "implements" to perform tasks; "the best" at recall knowledge and finding weaknesses. Cha main ability
* Psychic - spontaneous occult caster that uses either emotion or logic to cast spells; has other "strange powers" as well as spellcasting. Either Int or Cha main ability

8 treatises from the pathfinder society's Dark Archive, including:
* Cryptids
* secret societies
* temporal anomalies

Also includes one-page short articles about more specific paranormal/occult things, specific magic items were mentioned here.

So what are people's hopes, dreams, and other expectations for this book?


Huh? Emotion OR Logic? Not both components together in a single spell? O_O

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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I mostly just like the fact that the books are getting more flavor intensive. I'm normally hesitant about adding new rulebooks to my shelf, but making them more interesting to read and including adventure content increases my interest in buying them.

Dark Archive

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Psychic casting in 1e was just OP in terms of regular casting. I just hope this version is unique but balanced.


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My guess for a “spooky stuff book” was rewarded!

I’m very keen to see this; Psychic is a class I really wanted back, and this is a flavor space I really enjoy being in. I imagine the Archetypes in this book will be a delight - maybe we get body horror Alchemist back?


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I'm hoping there is an archetype in the book that can grant any caster psychic-style casting, since it doesn't seem to be so tied to a tradition as it is a method of expressing spells. That's a really cool space to go and I hope other casters can get in on it to a limited degree, at least.

Liberty's Edge

Psychic MC Dedication might be the best way to get at least some of their special casting. Similar to what Magus and Summoner MC provide.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Invictus Fatum wrote:
Psychic casting in 1e was just OP in terms of regular casting. I just hope this version is unique but balanced.

What.


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Squiggit wrote:
Invictus Fatum wrote:
Psychic casting in 1e was just OP in terms of regular casting. I just hope this version is unique but balanced.
What.

Mostly because they aren't affected by stuff that affects divine/arcane caster and can cast even when they are paralized.

If he is saying about how psychic casting was OP, psychic caster IMO were not OP at all compared to non psychic just the way they cast was.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

While I'm really excited for new classes, what other things are you guys hoping to see in this book in terms of archetypes and other stuff?

Liberty's Edge

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I would love for Fleshcrafting to become a PC-facing discipline.

My Forensic Medicine Investigator with the Eldritch Anatomist background in Abomination Vaults took over a certain workshop in the first levels of the Gauntlight and converted it to the study of slain opponents and expertise in knowledge about odd creatures, with an eye on using Fleshcraft techniques to improve her fellow PCs.

And I basically had to invent everything about the practice of Fleshcrafting and its potential uses for PCs. Even how it works is iredeemably fuzzy beyond "takes some magic and alchemy".

For such an important and rather pervasive part of the setting (pretty much on par with firearms), it felt really disappointing.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
While I'm really excited for new classes, what other things are you guys hoping to see in this book in terms of archetypes and other stuff?

Fingers crossed for an Alchemist class archetype that gives us the body horror stuff back.

Liberty's Edge

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Corruptions PF2-style.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I am actually most interested in the lore, as I tend to be. In particular, I want to see how the people of Golarion classify Cryptids in a world full of might, magic, and myth. We already have quite a few real-life Cryptids in the game as monsters. I mean, I suppose it's a matter of looking at it from an in-world view; but I find it hard to imagine a Wizard talking to a Dragon about the validity of a Sasquatch or Yeti existing.

EDIT: Ooooo! Second the Corruptions!! I once made a Weredragon by applying the Lycanthropy Corruption to a Green Dragon.

Also, I actually wouldn't mind seeing Chakra make a return. I found it interesting.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I want to see expanded material on corruption, flesh-forging, ooze-tending, possession, dream-walking, curses, forging pacts with planar entities and otherworldly powers (including, but not limited to, witch patrons and eidolons), how powerful and resonant stories and songs might actually create monsters instead of the other way around, akashic/mnemonic powers, places of power, chakras, more fulus, a whole lotta temporal magic, and maybe something like spell thievery/stealing magic energy from spellcasters.

Dark Archive

oholoko wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Invictus Fatum wrote:
Psychic casting in 1e was just OP in terms of regular casting. I just hope this version is unique but balanced.
What.

Mostly because they aren't affected by stuff that affects divine/arcane caster and can cast even when they are paralized.

If he is saying about how psychic casting was OP, psychic caster IMO were not OP at all compared to non psychic just the way they cast was.

That is exactly what I meant. The classes, spells, or abilities weren't OP, it was how they cast. Tie them up and gag them...no problem they can still cast. Paralyze them, that's fine they can still cast. Steeling material pouches, that's alright psychic casters don't need one. Area of magical silence will stop casters...oh wait, psychic casters are fine.

I just hope they make psychic casting unique and fun without running into these issues again.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Casting cause fear on them shuts them down though. Or even calm emotions.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Casting cause fear on them shuts them down though. Or even calm emotions.

Or intimidate. A friend and I worked on how dangerous psychic casters would be subdued- Skin Tag applied weekly keeps their casting shut down for days at a time, more humanely than manacles or gagging.


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Just please don't go repeating the horrible mistake that was the sanity system from Horror Adventures.

On psychic casters, part of what makes them so scary (and what makes psychics controversial in any fictional society they exist in) is that they can do the things they do mostly undetected and that you can't really do anything to restrict that ability. They don't have to point a gun at you or wave their fingers, and they can read your mind or kill you or whatever even if they are fully restrained or can't move a muscle.

This is why in most fictional settings where psychics are known to exist by the public, they are feared and usually have draconian government control imposed on them (Babylon 5 has psychics literally being given a choice between medications that basically lobotomize them, working for the government under strict rules, or life in prison. Warhammer 40k has psychics being rounded up at an early age, and then either executed, fed to the emperor to maintain the beacon that makes faster than light travel possible, or in exceptional cases (the strongest and most stable) conscripted into a career as a navigator, a living radio, or a weapon.


with the kindled magic book already giving psychic magic users way to rage and cast at the same time, I don't know how broken the casting would be.


Tender Tendrils wrote:


On psychic casters, part of what makes them so scary (and what makes psychics controversial in any fictional society they exist in) is that they can do the things they do mostly undetected and that you can't really do anything to restrict that ability. They don't have to point a gun at you or wave their fingers, and they can read your mind or kill you or whatever even if they are fully restrained or can't move a muscle.

I doubt something like that would fit with the 2e system.

Spellcasters have indeed some verbal spells which doesn't trigger AoO, but the majority of them do ( this include either somatic and verbal components ).

I do not expect a spellcaster ignoring these mechanics, though I may expect something like Silent spell, which is a lvl 4 class feat which also require another feat ( coneal spell ).

It removes the verbal component ( leaving untouched the number of actions required to cast the spell ).

A feat which would remove somatic components ( as far as I know it doesn't exist yet ), would indirectly remove the trigger for AoO, and because so it would be broken beyond anything else, if given as an unlimited metamagic feat.

It could have some drawback ( penalty on DC/Hit? An effect on the next round? ) or limited use ( once per 10 minutes/1 hour? )

Anyway, I am quite sure they won't add a class which invalidates the standard rules.


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The original Psychic used thought and emotion components, and bringing those forward into 2e wouldn't break anything.

Verbal components have the concentrate trait (which has very few weaknesses by default), a mild weakness to deafened, and are shut down by silence.

Somatic components have the manipulate trait, which makes them vulnerable to Attack of Opportunity.

All up, a tiny fraction of foes can invalidate verbal casting, and between 5% and 20% of foes (depending on level) can threaten somatic components.

Any new components need to have comparable weaknesses. If we look at how they worked in 1E, such weaknesses become apparent.

Thought components would have the concentrate trait. When you attempt the flat check for casting while stupefied, the DC is 10 + stupefied instead of 5 + stupefied.

Emotion components require you to have clear control over your mental state. Casting while frightened or under an emotion effect requires a flat check.

Once again, a tiny fraction of foes can invalidate thought components, but a LOT of stuff can try to mess with emotion components.

Thought matches with verbal as the component with rare weaknesses, and emotion with somatic as the common weakness.


Actually, they are all but a real comparison to AoO, expecially at higher levels ( not to say they are too niche and situational ).


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I'm just hoping Psychic casting isn't switched off by every emotion effect in the game in 2e, being able to cast in silence sounds great until you realise literally any enemy can turn you into a commoner with a simple intimidate check.


Thunder999 wrote:
I'm just hoping Psychic casting isn't switched off by every emotion effect in the game in 2e, being able to cast in silence sounds great until you realise literally any enemy can turn you into a commoner with a simple intimidate check.

This was always a gross exaggeration even ignoring all the ways psychics and Mesmerists had to remove or ignore emotion effects with class features.

Liberty's Edge

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Note that PF2 psychic casts with either emotion (CHA) OR thought (INT).

My guess : it replaces one of the usual components. You choose which one.


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To address the other, more RP centric aspect of Tendrils' concerns regarding psychics being able to perform without drawing any attention to themselves, I believe it should be sufficient to establish that psychic spell casting is always accompanied with a visual manifestation of power, much like 2e has established for traditional casters. The psychic may not have to move or speak to rain death or mental manipulation upon their enemies, but if the energy of those spells manifests a visual display such as glowing eyes or an aura of power, it would make it a lot harder for a psychic to attack with impunity without drawing attention.

... And then of course they might have the conceal spell metamagic feats which any wizard can use to completely hide their casting with Stealth, which at least leaves us at parity with traditional casters for being able to influence others without revealing themselves.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Regarding the idea that Psychics can cast spells undetected, please take note of page 302 of the Core Rulebook under Casting Spells where it states, "When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic, although feats such as Conceal Spell (page 210) and Melodious Spell (page 101) can help hide such manifestations or otherwise prevent observers from noticing that you are casting."

Given that, even if Psychics can cast without verbal or somatic components, they will not be able to "stealth cast", unless some other ability grants such capability.

EDIT: Looks like Sibelius Eos Owm beat me to it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

To touch on what the Raven Black said, it's possible that the choice in Key Ability, therefore the choice in either Emotion or Thought, will end up replacing either Verbal or Material components, but not both.

So, let's say Thought replaces the Material component of the spell. This still requires you to provide Somatic components, leaving you open to AoO due to the manipulate trait. Likewise, Emotion could replace the Somatic component, but still require you to have a Material or Focus component.

The fact that it is a choice between the two, instead of just replacing all components leads me to assume this is how they'll balance it.

To say nothing of the visual manifestations like others pointed out.

EDIT: Corrected wrong words


I would love more psychic subclasses beyond INT Psychic and CHA Psychic. A class path focused on telekinesis, another one on object and mind reading, things like that.

Can't wait to read the playtest.


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roquepo wrote:

I would love more psychic subclasses beyond INT Psychic and CHA Psychic. A class path focused on telekinesis, another one on object and mind reading, things like that.

Can't wait to read the playtest.

Sounds like that's exactly the sort of class paths they'll get. The methodology seemed to be separate. More info tomorrow, of course!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The Int/Cha choice would just be their Key Ability, like how a Fighter can pick Str or Dex; it's unlikely to be their Subclass choice. I expect that to be covered by their choice of Discipline, which I expect to make a return.

Either way, looking forward to tomorrow.


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I'd love for Chakra stuff to come back. I like the Serpent-Fire Adept, and folding the seven chakra into seven feats seems like a no-brainer.

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