Advice needed for Fighter build with VMC Barbarian


Advice


FCB +1 HP per level
HP / DR (5/-)

STR 18
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 8

AC 24 Flat 24 Touch 25
FRT REF WIL

Normal Attack 16/11 (1D12+8)
Power Attack 13/8 (1D12+17)

Armor mastery Full Plate ACP -4
Armor mastery Full Plate MAX DEX 3
Weapon Mastery Axes +1 Hit & DMG

1 power Attack
1 Toughness
1 Weapon Focus (Great-Axe)
2 Cleave
3 Rage
4 Weapon Spec (Great-Axe)
5 Toughness
6 Great Cleave
7 Uncanny Dodge
8 Greater weapon Focus (Great-Axe)

Is what I got so far


You have Toughness twice. Maybe replace one with Raging Vitality, Extra Rage, or Iron Will.

I like Greater Weapon Focus, but doubt Weapon Specialization is necessary... maybe take Furious Focus instead of Weapon Specialization?


VoodistMonk wrote:

You have Toughness twice. Maybe replace one with Raging Vitality, Extra Rage, or Iron Will.

I like Greater Weapon Focus, but doubt Weapon Specialization is necessary... maybe take Furious Focus instead of Weapon Specialization?

Do think VMC Barbarian is worth it or should I grab a 3rd & 7th level feat instead


Fighters get a ton of feats. Barbarian Rage is pretty strong for a couple of feats.

L3 - Rage. Definitely worth a feat.

L7 - Uncanny Dodge. Probably not worth a feat, but I think Rage plus Uncanny Dodge is still worth 2 feats.

L11 - Rage Power. It varies, but some are quite strong.

L15 - DR:3/-. That's not bad. It can be done with Adamantine Armour, or with an Armour Mastery feat (and they won't stack), but if you weren't building for them then it's not bad.

L19 - Greater Rage. It's basically +1 to hit and damage, which at this stage of the game is pretty "Meh".

So if we assume the only ones you care about are Rage at 3 and Rage Power at 11, and let's assume the rest are worth a feat between them ... it's an ok deal. Strong at low levels, and I don't think it's ever terrible.

But here's a question (one that I don't know the answer to): Do the class features you gain from Variant Multiclassing actually count as those class features? Would VMC Barbarian qualify you to take Extra Rage and Extra Rage Power?

If so then this gets much better. You're restricted to Powers half your class level (so you can never get Come And Get Me or Greater Beast Totem, but you could qualify for Superstitious, Strength Surge, etc). You'd also qualify for Raging Vitality and Raging Brutality, which are both great at what they do.

So yeah, if you qualify for those then it'd be great. If not then it's ok. Either way it's not a bad choice.


They do count, and you can take Extra Rage Power at 17 to pick up Internal Fortitude... using a flawed scarlet & green ioun stone to be immune to effectively get Tireless Rage exactly on schedule.

Uncanny Dodge pays for itself if your GM uses Rogue NPC's.

I have a legacy NPC Goblin Tortured Crusader Paladin VMC Barbarian named Virgil that I use a guide when I need such a thing. Even without a Fighter's bonus feats, I feel VMC Barbarian can be quite worth it... both in flavor and mechanics.


I like Rage and Uncanny Dodge on a Great Cleave Fighter.

I'd drop your lvl 5 Toughness (because you have it twice) and Weapon Specialization for lvl 4, and move Great Cleave to lvl 4. Then get Cleaving Finish at 5 and Improved Cleaving Finish at 6, which give you free attacks whenever you kill someone with cleave.

You are technically classified as an industrial-strength Blender once you have Cleaving Finish, but with Improved Cleaving Finish, you're a Blender stuck on Purée mode with the knob broken off.

At lvls 8, 9, and 10, get Cornugon Smash (and a +1 Cruel Weapon enchant), Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses.

Now when you cleave in round 1, you also demoralize them all for free, and then in round 2 you cleave again, and they're all Sickened and Shatter Defenses, and from round 3 until forever you're attacking their Flat-Footed AC.

Every time you kill a target, you gain 5 temp health from Cruel and you also get a free attack on someone within range from Cleaving Finish. You basically just eat and eat and eat and eat nom nom nom nom until combat is over. And the Shaken/Sicken combo gives them all a -4 to hit and debuffs their Saves by 4, so your caster allies will like you a lot.

At lvl 11+, you could get Dreadful Carnage or go Raging Vitality, or you can really double down on cleaving and get Vital Strike, Imp Vital Strike, and then Cleaving Smash Weapon Trick, which allows you to Vital Strike your first 2 cleaved targets.


I think Cleaving Finish is a fantastic feat, but Improved Cleaving finish not so much.

Cleaving Finish costs 2 feats, but it's a free bonus attack that'll trigger whenever you drop someone to 0HP. Two feats is expensive, but it's a free attack at full-BAB that'll trigger often enough to make a noticeable difference

Improved Cleaving Finish costs another 2 feats, and it gives you potentially unlimited uses of Cleaving Finish. There are 2 problems with this:

1 - How often do you knock out 2 enemies in a single round and still have more enemies to kill?

2 - When that does happen, are you fighting enemies that you care about?

Chances are this won't trigger often enough to make it worth a feat, let alone two. When it does trigger you're probably fighting enemies that you were going to wipe the floor with anyway, so spending feats on this kind of combat seems like a waste.

If you DO want to spend more feats on this kind of thing: CORNUGON SMASH plus HURTFUL potentially gives you an extra attack on a creature big enough to matter. Also, if you almost kill a mook you can use Hurtful to attack them again, and then when you kill them you trigger Cleaving Finish. Or when you Cleaving-Finish into a tougher monster you can use Hurtful to get a second attack. Essentially these two options make each other more likely to trigger, so having both is more powerful than it seems.

Also Lunge is great for Cleaving Finish since it widens the area of your reach for the bonus attack.


VoodistMonk wrote:
They do count ...

Awesome.

Honestly, I've really appreciated Uncanny Dodge on my Bloodrager, but I know a lot of people don't rate it highly.

So for 5 feats you get Rage, a Rage Power, some less popular abilities that aren't bad (Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction, Greater Rage).

But if you're willing to spend more feats you can get more Rage Powers and feats like Raging Vitality and Raging Brutality. I think Raging Brutality more than makes up for the feats you're losing. You might want Extra Rage if you're using it a lot though.

If you weren't playing a Fighter it might not be worth it, but Fighters get 21 feats (or more) so losing a few for this much advantage is a good deal for them.


MrCharisma wrote:

I think Cleaving Finish is a fantastic feat, but Improved Cleaving finish not so much.

Cleaving Finish costs 2 feats, but it's a free bonus attack that'll trigger whenever you drop someone to 0HP. Two feats is expensive, but it's a free attack at full-BAB that'll trigger often enough to make a noticeable difference

Improved Cleaving Finish costs another 2 feats, and it gives you potentially unlimited uses of Cleaving Finish. There are 2 problems with this:

1 - How often do you knock out 2 enemies in a single round and still have more enemies to kill?

2 - When that does happen, are you fighting enemies that you care about?

Chances are this won't trigger often enough to make it worth a feat, let alone two. When it does trigger you're probably fighting enemies that you were going to wipe the floor with anyway, so spending feats on this kind of combat seems like a waste.

If you DO want to spend more feats on this kind of thing: CORNUGON SMASH plus HURTFUL potentially gives you an extra attack on a creature big enough to matter. Also, if you almost kill a mook you can use Hurtful to attack them again, and then when you kill them you trigger Cleaving Finish. Or when you Cleaving-Finish into a tougher monster you can use Hurtful to get a second attack. Essentially these two options make each other more likely to trigger, so having both is more powerful than it seems.

Also Lunge is great for Cleaving Finish since it widens the area of your reach for the bonus attack.

Yeah you don't *need* Imp Cleaving Finish, but the first time that you kill 2-3 targets with your great cleave and you can only make one attack, you will make sad cleave fighter noises.

About 7 years ago, I was playing as a PC in a group that had a Lionfolk Paladin PC who had Improved Cleaving Finish and it was monstrous. He killed everything. He would use his divine bond to put keen on his greataxe and OMNOMOMNOMNOM every combat. He was no slouch in the single-target dmg either, but his aoe dmg was ridiculous. The only thing that I would've changed about that guy's build would be to not use a greataxe, and rather go for something 18-20/x2 like an Elven Curve Blade, and then put keen on it for 15-20/x2 crits. But when he crit with x3 damage it was pretty much instant kill, so it's hard to talk poop about it.

Also, I like your ideas for Hurtful and Lunge. That's a good way to generate extra hits, and since the fighter doesn't have a lot of competition for his Swift Actions, Hurtful is a really good use of his action economy. We used to Enlarge our Paladin for reach, but Lunge + Enlarge would be pretty phenomenal.


Yeah I guess it depends on your game. If you tend to fight a lot of low-HP high-damage enemies it could be a phenomenal feat-chain to take, but I haven't seen much use for the Improved versions.

The feat combo I suggested was for a Warpriest I was thinking about. The idea was basically just to generate bonus attacks every round if possible. I had a Fauchard, Improved Critical*, Combat Reflexes, Hurtful and Cleaving Finish (and Lunge). Between all those options chances were very good that I'd get 1-2 bonus attacks most rounds of combat.

Obviously being Large would help with both Cleaving Finish and with generating AoOs, so that would be a great idea. Actually it could also help with Hurtful since being large can give you bonuses on Intimidate.

(*I consider critical hits to essentially be bonus attacks. You make an extra attack roll - the confirmation roll - and if it hits it deals +100% damage. Higher crit-modifier weapons change the balance a little, but you get the idea.)


Ok so if I wanted to go in to a intimidate build as Fighter VMV Barb

I know I want these

Dazzling Intimidation = weapon mastery

Intimidating Prowess

Armored Confidence = Armor mastery

Want power Attack and dazzling display

Cruel great axe ( I want a great axe cause it fits in to my characters story I'm working on)

What would be a good feat set up to level 8 with this type build

I do still want armored juggernaut cause I want the idea of my foes having trouble damaging me be some to cause fear. Roleplay wise

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