To Those Cancelling or Thinking About Cancelling Subscriptions


Paizo General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

An anonymous Paizo employee posted this comment:

Acceptabe_Ad_7359 wrote:


“…there's plenty of concern going around that if a community-beloved employee with a spotless record and 12 years of company loyalty can be fired on an apparent whim, none of us are safe.

By the way, we can see all of the subscription cancellations in the forums too. If that's how you want to express your disapproval with the situation, I can't fault you. I'll even grant you that as much as I wish otherwise, a dip in revenue is probably the only thing that has a chance of motivating the executives to do anything about this. That said, I have serious doubts that any action taken would actually involve anyone in power taking responsibility, and serious concerns that it would negatively impact the people who represent the best that the company has to offer.

But if you do cancel over this … if you feel strongly about this to even consider cancelling … I will ask that you send an email to someone on the executive team and express your concerns. It may not and probably will not make a difference, but when all is said and done, your opinions matter a lot more than ours do. If you genuinely care about Paizo and want to see it do better (now, not in five years), tell the people who can make it happen.”

With this follow-up:

Acceptabe_Ad_7359 wrote:

“Posts and CS emails won't be seen by the executive team unless they ask for them, which seems unlikely.

As for who to contact with your concerns, I would recommend anyone at the C-level, particularly Lisa Stevens, Erik Mona, or Jeff Alvarez (firstname.lastname@paizo.com). They may not choose to listen, but at least they'll know you cared enough to try.”

For reference, those email addresses are:

lisa.stevens@paizo.com
erik.mona@paizo.com
jeff.alvarez@paizo.com

I hope those who are cancelling or thinking about cancelling their subscriptions will consider writing an email to one or more of these people. I know it’s more work than just cancelling your subscription. But if we care about Paizo and its employees, I think writing them is time well-spent.

If you do email any of these people, feel free to post the content of your email here. It might encourage others to write their own emails, and provide some helpful guidance for those who are having a hard time putting their thoughts into words.


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Starfinder Superscriber

I would also read the original post he made before that, which motivated him to post a clarification after being pressured by other Redditors.

I wonder why people were accusing him of doing "more harm than good"? Because it challenged the narrative being put out there?

The digital world is one full of grift. Make sure that you're legitimately outraged over real things and not being wound up by astroturfing by crazy people.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For reference, here's the email I sent:

"I’ve been a fan of Paizo since its inception. And I’ve been enormously proud of the quality of the products Paizo puts out, as well as its commitment to supporting groups who are under-represented in the table top RPG community. I’ve also been proud of Paizo for being a welcoming and supportive place for the dedicated and amazing people who work there.

The recent allegations from a number of sources regarding Paizo’s executive board have troubled me greatly. I am not, of course, in a position to evaluate the veracity of each of these complaints (though it’s obviously important to do so). But a common thread, that seems supported by every source, is that the executive branch has failed to support their employees in a number of ways. Although a number of particular allegations have come to light, the firing of Sara Marie, a beloved figure in the Paizo community, who seems to have done amazing work in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, is especially hard to comprehend. And the resignation of Diego Valdez, another well-respected member of the community, in solidarity, makes it hard to see this as a typical staffing change.

I realize that the details behind this decision cannot usually be discussed in public. But given the extraordinary circumstances, I think some transparency here would be invaluable. To provide an analogy, if a company suddenly fired Mother Theresa and several other employees resigned in solidarity, it would be hard to think of the company’s firing as anything but unfair and capricious.

I love Paizo, and I want to continue to support it and the great people who work there. And although I have not yet cancelled my subscriptions, I’m not sure I’ll be able to continue supporting Paizo in good conscience without some concrete and visible changes made on behalf of its employees."


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I emailed Lisa and Erik.

I don't know, I don't know what could change or even what change I would know about, so I've got pretty conflicting feelings in a broad sense.

Here's hoping things get better.


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Paizo has some of the most inclusive and diverse content in their published material as far as I can tell. Crystal Frasier is online discussing their "well earned" reputation in this area

Cancelling subscriptions would put all of this at risk. And I am not sure that is the point people want to make. It might be but I don't think it is


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Lanathar wrote:

Paizo has some of the most inclusive and diverse content in their published material as far as I can tell. Crystal Frasier is online discussing their "well earned" reputation in this area

Cancelling subscriptions would put all of this at risk. And I am not sure that is the point people want to make. It might be but I don't think it is

OTOH, Crystal is also online pointing out problems with their actual treatment of trans employees.

I get it. Pulling subscriptions threatens the company and makes it less likely we'll see more of that inclusive and diverse content. OTOH, not buying their stuff is the only pressure that's available to anyone outside the company and just continuing as if nothing had happened very likely means nothing will change.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Porridge wrote:

An anonymous Paizo employee posted this comment:

Acceptabe_Ad_7359 wrote:


“…there's plenty of concern going around that if a community-beloved employee with a spotless record and 12 years of company loyalty can be fired on an apparent whim, none of us are safe.

By the way, we can see all of the subscription cancellations in the forums too. If that's how you want to express your disapproval with the situation, I can't fault you. I'll even grant you that as much as I wish otherwise, a dip in revenue is probably the only thing that has a chance of motivating the executives to do anything about this. That said, I have serious doubts that any action taken would actually involve anyone in power taking responsibility, and serious concerns that it would negatively impact the people who represent the best that the company has to offer.

But if you do cancel over this … if you feel strongly about this to even consider cancelling … I will ask that you send an email to someone on the executive team and express your concerns. It may not and probably will not make a difference, but when all is said and done, your opinions matter a lot more than ours do. If you genuinely care about Paizo and want to see it do better (now, not in five years), tell the people who can make it happen.”

With this follow-up:

Acceptabe_Ad_7359 wrote:

“Posts and CS emails won't be seen by the executive team unless they ask for them, which seems unlikely.

As for who to contact with your concerns, I would recommend anyone at the C-level, particularly Lisa Stevens, Erik Mona, or Jeff Alvarez (firstname.lastname@paizo.com). They may not choose to listen, but at least they'll know you cared enough to try.”

For reference, those email addresses are:

lisa.stevens@paizo.com
erik.mona@paizo.com
jeff.alvarez@paizo.com

I hope...

99% sure the person who wrote that is Aaron Shank. It's his style of writing.


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thejeff wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

Paizo has some of the most inclusive and diverse content in their published material as far as I can tell. Crystal Frasier is online discussing their "well earned" reputation in this area

Cancelling subscriptions would put all of this at risk. And I am not sure that is the point people want to make. It might be but I don't think it is

OTOH, Crystal is also online pointing out problems with their actual treatment of trans employees.

I get it. Pulling subscriptions threatens the company and makes it less likely we'll see more of that inclusive and diverse content. OTOH, not buying their stuff is the only pressure that's available to anyone outside the company and just continuing as if nothing had happened very likely means nothing will change.

What about all the negative PR. That is currently storming round online on the day of gencon? That is not nothing?

Crystal is pointing out the treatment she received. Which fair enough - but I'm not sure you can be quite so sweeping with "trans employees". When it is one - her. Who doesn't work there anymore. Not dismissing the concerns at all. But wording it that way is an attempt to give the statement far more weight than "they treated me pretty badly". Now if there is a chance she is referring to multiple people then I am obviously wrong on that point

Potentially things have moved on since she has left. Doesn't Vanessa freelance for Paizo now? This doesn't prove things have changed in anyway. It certainly seems to me that attitudes in this area have progressed very quickly in just a few short years. (This could be wrong - just how it seems)

Liberty's Edge

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Lanathar wrote:

Paizo has some of the most inclusive and diverse content in their published material as far as I can tell. Crystal Frasier is online discussing their "well earned" reputation in this area

Cancelling subscriptions would put all of this at risk. And I am not sure that is the point people want to make. It might be but I don't think it is

What course of actions do you propose then ?


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It's classic redress of grievance before supply; what the heck else is available to consumers rather than a stern letter?

Dark Archive

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Lanathar wrote:
Potentially things have moved on since she has left.

Gosh, you'd think Paizo might have mentioned the allegations if they'd already started fixing them, right?

Saying you expect things are better without any indication seems optimistic in my opinion.

Lanathar wrote:
Now if there is a chance she is referring to multiple people

I'm pretty sure I would be upset at even just one instance of transphobia.

I'm going to believe the individual woman's account on this before your account that maybe it wasn't such a big deal, especially as Paizo seems reluctant to weigh in on it at all.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lanathar wrote:

Paizo has some of the most inclusive and diverse content in their published material as far as I can tell. Crystal Frasier is online discussing their "well earned" reputation in this area

Cancelling subscriptions would put all of this at risk. And I am not sure that is the point people want to make. It might be but I don't think it is

The point is not spending money on products we won't derive enjoyment from because of this. Nothing obliges people to continue buying a product if their tastes have moved on. For some people, this is enough and we have already acted. The hope is that transparency and change restore enough trust that one day we will enjoy them again.

For some people it isn't, and I ain't going to tell to cancel their subs, but I am getting real tired of people coming in here questioning what I've done with mine.


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There is a middle ground to all this, the one I'm about to go now:

I did cancel my subscription, because I wanted to send a message the company can verify. At the same time, I will buy Paizo's products, to support the writers and editors and the company, because I love the (inclusiveness of the) setting and the rulesystem of PF2.

Additionally, I signed up to some of my favorite authors patreons.

I know it's not the perfect solution. It might make books more expensive. It might put Paizo in a tight spot. I hope it will make them think about how they do their business, and how they treat their employees. It will be hard for me to verify any changes. But I'll keep on the lookout for official statements, and the transparency Aaron has spoken of.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

If the response from Paizo does not address the problems, I will walk away, simply put. I am grateful to the community and to those who have made so many good times available to me, but I have enough adventures to last a lifetime. If I can't trust the company to do right, I can't trust them with my support.

Personal responsibility is not "you can't make me do the right thing", it's "you don't NEED to make me do the right thing because I'm already doing it without outside influence".

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It's a bit weird to compare a company with about 80 employees to one with hundreds of thousands, but sure, you can buy whatever you want. I prefer to support smaller companies that treat their employees better than Amazon or Walmart do, but that's just me.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you Tholok for voicing your continued support for Paizo. This was incredibly obvious from the two threads you created about it, and the version of this exact post you've placed in all of the other threads certainly drives the point home.

You didn't need to include clarification that you are against "woke" ideology - that much was clear.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Tholok, you seem to be under the illusion that we live in a world in which things are always fair and always work out. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world and many employees simply do not have the option to take legal action. Additionally, the law is not always right, the law is amoral and in many ways, is wrong. There are laws that allow people to discriminate against LGBT folk on the basis of "religious freedom" despite the separation of church and state being in our ammendment, and in my opinion, any law that allows discrimination is a morally reprehensible law. I'd love to live in the world you think we do, but we simply don't. I believe the employees, both current and former, and I hope paizo will do better.

You can continue turning your nose up and "opposing" #paizoaccountability, but its not going to stop me. I want the employees that create the worlds and stories that I love to be compensated fairly and treated with respect.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:

If the response from Paizo does not address the problems, I will walk away, simply put. I am grateful to the community and to those who have made so many good times available to me, but I have enough adventures to last a lifetime. If I can't trust the company to do right, I can't trust them with my support.

Personal responsibility is not "you can't make me do the right thing", it's "you don't NEED to make me do the right thing because I'm already doing it without outside influence".

Pretty much this.


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Paizo upper management is being accused of some problematic things. Anti-woke bros show up and very vocally are supporting Paizo. But Paizo has always BEEN WOKE. At least from the creative side. And I mean, from the JUMP.

So these Anti-woke bros showing up here hoping that Paizo is going to turn into all things Alt-Right and Anti-woke? You'll gonna be waiting a loooooooong time brah...

Now that I've gotten that out of the way: I canceled my last subscription last week and I'm taking a hiatus from purchasing Paizo products. The thing is I don't want the creatives who work at Paizo to be thrown out with the bathwater either. There are few names that I do want to support and like.

So I'm going to pay attention to how Paizo weathers / handles this current thing. There are a lot of things that I'm not a fan of that wind up getting my money and Paizo despite my issues with leadership is, I feel, made up of good people. If this is handled in an empathic and substantial way (much like porn, I dont know how to define it, but I'll know what it is when I see it...) I'll start buying and supporting again. If not? *shrug* I'm good.


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ShinHakkaider wrote:

Paizo upper management is being accused of some problematic things. Anti-woke bros show up and very vocally are supporting Paizo. But Paizo has always BEEN WOKE. At least from the creative side. And I mean, from the JUMP.

So these Anti-woke bros showing up here hoping that Paizo is going to turn into all things Alt-Right and Anti-woke? You'll gonna be waiting a loooooooong time brah...

Now that I've gotten that out of the way: I canceled my last subscription last week and I'm taking a hiatus from purchasing Paizo products. The thing is I don't want the creatives who work at Paizo to be thrown out with the bathwater either. There are few names that I do want to support and like.

So I'm going to pay attention to how Paizo weathers / handles this current thing. There are a lot of things that I'm not a fan of that wind up getting my money and Paizo despite my issues with leadership is, I feel, made up of good people. If this is handled in an empathic and substantial way (much like porn, I dont know how to define it, but I'll know what it is when I see it...) I'll start buying and supporting again. If not? *shrug* I'm good.

I'm in the same boat. I was really excited for Absalom: City of Lost Omens. But I don't feel right buying it at the moment. I hope Paizo endeavors to make some real change.

Dark Archive

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What would you consider the consequences of going 'too woke'? Do you feel that others here share those similar opinions on being 'woke'?

I'm gonna come right out and say it, what do you think 'woke' means? Because from what I can tell, it seems anything that involves granting more representation to populations which up to now haven't had very much.


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Tholok wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
So these Anti-woke bros showing up here hoping that Paizo is going to turn into all things Alt-Right and Anti-woke? You'll gonna be waiting a loooooooong time brah...

LOL. Why does me wanting due process for people accused on Twitter make me Alt-Right?

Is saying, "if they have a legitimate grievance, let them take it to a court not Twitter" really a sign of being ALT-RIGHT? I did not even say don't be woke - I said do not take it too far!

Mind you, it gives me some great comedy ideas for unofficial supplements ...

It’s the usual “if you don’t agree with me completely

You must be an anti-woke incel” coupled with (insert word)ist. I had a few ex- friends who tried that with me I no longer associate with them. You and I are in an minority on these boards as we rather it follow due process rather than the court of public opinion.


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Add me to that minority too, Mr. Particular.

Dark Archive

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I wonder if the ex-friends have a different way of telling how that went down.

Dark Archive

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Mergy wrote:
I wonder if the ex-friends have a different way of telling how that went down.

Of course


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Mergy wrote:
I wonder if the ex-friends have a different way of telling how that went down.

That was your takeaway?

Dark Archive

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Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Mergy wrote:
I wonder if the ex-friends have a different way of telling how that went down.
Of course

I am instantly intrigued by this link you've sent me... I might have to track down a copy of this.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mergy wrote:
I wonder if the ex-friends have a different way of telling how that went down.

I’m willing to listen to anyone and everyone when discussing almost any topic .

When the response to disagreeing with me is calling someone an incel or (insert word)ist whenever a person is unable to refute my point. Or worse simply because I refuse to be cho how they feel then I’m sorry I truly don’t want you in my life.

Once, twice, three times I don’t need that toxicity in my life. Before I cut them out of my life the hardcore Liberal of our group of friends had enough and blew up on them which is telling when even the guy who disagrees with me on many things lost on them. He w As having a discussion and is called a misogynistic. Why not for remotely being in anyway shape or form. Simply for not giving them the echo chamber they wanted when having discussions.

Sorry but if every response is an attack guess what many if not the majority of people at least away from the internet are not interested
In wanting to talk let have you around as a person. Myself and other are not obliged to put up with that kind of behaviour.

I’m used to it though we are the enemy for a difference of opinion.

Dark Archive

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Mergy wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Mergy wrote:
I wonder if the ex-friends have a different way of telling how that went down.
Of course
I am instantly intrigued by this link you've sent me... I might have to track down a copy of this.

Oh sweet mercy are you in for a treat. That movie is really good.


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I'm just wondering why he thinks employers would care about reasonably polite calls for accountability on a RPG companies forum. Generally when people get fired after being doxxed for "political activity" it's for marching with Nazi flags or taking part in violent protests.

Of course, if some of our trans community members aren't out at work, that could be bad, but I'd hope even Tholok wouldn't "look forward" to that.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Its not worth wasting energy responding to people who already have it ingrained in their mind that anything "woke" (LGBT or POC representation, diversity, equality, etc) is bad and that people demanding a company who has made mistakes should do better, because we actually LIKE the stuff they make and the people who make them, characterizing us as some sort of "mob" or something silly (I didn't realize saying "hey paizo, these allegations are concerning and we have reason to believe they're true, we'd like an explanation" is mob behavior lmao, I thought we needed pitchforks for that)
Either way whether or not they agree, its very clear to a number of people that multiple employees have come forth with concerns about how the company handles things, and thats enough for us to want paizo to properly explain themselves. I've said it before but I love the pathfinder world and the stories that the employees make, and I hope they're treated well, because they deserve it


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Genuinely the criticism here has been so far from mob-with-pitchforks fervor that I'm not sure those who call it that have ever been on Twitter. :P


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Even on twitter its been incredibly tame. The *worst* stuff I've seen is demanding Jeff Alvarez to resign after frankly, an astonishingly empty statement when the allegations first came out. Even THAT is not that bad, I haven't seen one person demanding violence or anything of that level, just accountability


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Compared to how people talk about Jessica Price and Crystal Frasier, especially off-site but also on these very threads, it's a joke. If anyone said the sorts of things of Jeff Alvarez that Tholok has said about Jessica Price, I can't imagine his outrage. Even his tamest comments paint her as a cartoonish serial-liar sociopath.

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