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The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.
And incidentally, this is not a decision I make lightly. I have been a subscriber since Dungeon and Dragon days but I will not support them any longer unless they can offer some sort of plausible explanation for both what has happened in the CS Team and the accusations made in the Price thread.
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I'm not going anywhere. When the last Starfinder book is released, I'll be the last box they send out.
Maybe it's because I have a family and my own life, so I'm not here to get immersed in corporate drama (I have my own office job, why would I want to get involved in company gossip when I'm not even getting paid for it?).
I thought Sara was a hard worker, and working under the circumstances of the past year and a half would be hard for anyone in her position. At the same time if Paizo doesn't ship its stuff, it dies. I don't think the PDF's keep the lights on around here (because piracy, thanks "loyal" customers). I don't envy anybody who has to make decisions in that kind of environment.
But I don't know what's going on and the only people talking are ex-employees with an axe to grind and a SUPER ex employee who acts like the crazy ex-girlfriend from Hell when it comes to every job she's ever held.
All I want is my books & PDF.
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Sara Marie, not sure if you'll read this, but I wanted to say thanks. Your voice was always calming, reassuring, and trustworthy even though it was just text on a screen. I appreciated your knowledge and the kindness I saw in all your interactions. Best wishes in whatever life has in store for you next, maybe it be as great as you are.
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I'm not going anywhere. When the last Starfinder book is released, I'll be the last box they send out.
Maybe it's because I have a family and my own life, so I'm not here to get immersed in corporate drama (I have my own office job, why would I want to get involved in company gossip when I'm not even getting paid for it?). I thought Sara was a hard worker, but I don't know what's going on and the only people talking are ex-employees with an axe to grind and a SUPER ex employee who acts like the crazy ex-girlfriend from Hell when it comes to every job she's ever held.
All I want is my books & PDF.
Don't worry, you've made it crystal clear that if something doesn't affect you personally, you prefer to not give thought or energy to the issue.
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I'm not going anywhere. When the last Starfinder book is released, I'll be the last box they send out.
Maybe it's because I have a family and my own life, so I'm not here to get immersed in corporate drama (I have my own office job, why would I want to get involved in company gossip when I'm not even getting paid for it?).
I thought Sara was a hard worker, and working under the circumstances of the past year and a half would be hard for anyone in her position. At the same time if Paizo doesn't ship its stuff, it dies. I don't think the PDF's keep the lights on around here (because piracy, thanks "loyal" customers). I don't envy anybody who has to make decisions in that kind of environment.
But I don't know what's going on and the only people talking are ex-employees with an axe to grind and a SUPER ex employee who acts like the crazy ex-girlfriend from Hell when it comes to every job she's ever held.
All I want is my books & PDF.
Of course everyone should make their own decisions but FWIW I have a family and my own life so please don't assume that people posting things about this issue don't. Thanks
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The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.
And incidentally, this is not a decision I make lightly. I have been a subscriber since Dungeon and Dragon days but I will not support them any longer unless they can offer some sort of plausible explanation for both what has happened in the CS Team and the accusations made in the Price thread.
I hate to say this, but even if Jessica made up 100% of her allegations and there was definite proof of it, you still wouldn't be seeing an individual response from Jason or Erik. This sort of thing is much too sticky to not go through PR and probably an attorney.
I may be incorrect, it's true, but to my eyes you set an impossible ultimatum.
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Don't worry, you've made it crystal clear that if something doesn't affect you personally, you prefer to not give thought or energy to the issue.
If it makes you feel better to be so utterly impotent in life that you have to engage in hashtag activism on a corporate message board, then I'm happy to be the strawman you need. It costs me nothing to be the object of your ire.
Meanwhile, I got what I wanted. I have a shelf full of books, and they don't disappear out of my hands just because you guys cancelled Paizo.
An interesting stance from someone who was suggesting they might cancel a week ago due to increased shipping costs but as I said above, each to their own.
If shipping costs and not the ethical treatment of staff is the hill you want to die on then you do you.
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The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.
And incidentally, this is not a decision I make lightly. I have been a subscriber since Dungeon and Dragon days but I will not support them any longer unless they can offer some sort of plausible explanation for both what has happened in the CS Team and the accusations made in the Price thread.
I hate to say this, but even if Jessica made up 100% of her allegations and there was definite proof of it, you still wouldn't be seeing an individual response from Jason or Erik. This sort of thing is much too sticky to not go through PR and probably an attorney.
I may be incorrect, it's true, but to my eyes you set an impossible ultimatum.
Maybe, maybe not. But given this is now 24 hours plus old and there isn't even a bland "nothing to see here" denial on this site is pretty telling to me. If everything is false then I'd expect a quick denial. Delay suggests, as you say, lawyers getting involved and some sort of PR response being crafted. That leads me to believe that not everything is 100% untrue.
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Maybe, maybe not. But given this is now 24 hours plus old and there isn't even a bland "nothing to see here" denial on this site is pretty telling to me. If everything is false then I'd expect a quick denial. Delay suggests, as you say, lawyers getting involved and some sort of PR response being crafted. That leads me to believe that not everything is 100% untrue.The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.
And incidentally, this is not a decision I make lightly. I have been a subscriber since Dungeon and Dragon days but I will not support them any longer unless they can offer some sort of plausible explanation for both what has happened in the CS Team and the accusations made in the Price thread.
I hate to say this, but even if Jessica made up 100% of her allegations and there was definite proof of it, you still wouldn't be seeing an individual response from Jason or Erik. This sort of thing is much too sticky to not go through PR and probably an attorney.
I may be incorrect, it's true, but to my eyes you set an impossible ultimatum.
Oh I'm sure that not everything is 100% untrue. But how much actually is true, particularly among the more egregious or nasty bits, is not a dialog Paizo will want to have started. Even if they're virtually entirely innocent, it's just the start of a mess and spirals everything way wilder.
But I mean, given your personal feelings here, would a bland corporate dismissal satisfy you?
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Maybe, maybe not. But given this is now 24 hours plus old and there isn't even a bland "nothing to see here" denial on this site is pretty telling to me. If everything is false then I'd expect a quick denial. Delay suggests, as you say, lawyers getting involved and some sort of PR response being crafted. That leads me to believe that not everything is 100% untrue.The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.
And incidentally, this is not a decision I make lightly. I have been a subscriber since Dungeon and Dragon days but I will not support them any longer unless they can offer some sort of plausible explanation for both what has happened in the CS Team and the accusations made in the Price thread.
I hate to say this, but even if Jessica made up 100% of her allegations and there was definite proof of it, you still wouldn't be seeing an individual response from Jason or Erik. This sort of thing is much too sticky to not go through PR and probably an attorney.
I may be incorrect, it's true, but to my eyes you set an impossible ultimatum.
Oh I'm sure that not everything is 100% untrue. But how much actually is true, particularly among the more egregious or nasty bits, is not a dialog Paizo will want to have started. Even if they're virtually entirely innocent, it's just the start of a mess and spirals everything way wilder.
But I mean, given your personal feelings here, would a bland corporate dismissal satisfy you?
The gencon keynote will be something to keep on eye on tomorrow.
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Don't worry, you've made it crystal clear that if something doesn't affect you personally, you prefer to not give thought or energy to the issue.
Taking money out of the mouths of starving artists because a lady on Twitter urged you to does not make you a good person.
If it makes you feel better to be so utterly impotent in life that you have to engage in hashtag activism on a corporate message board, then I'm happy to be the strawman you need. It costs me nothing to be the object of your ire.
Meanwhile, I got what I wanted. I have a shelf full of books, and they don't disappear out of my hands just because you guys cancelled Paizo. And I put money in the hands of people who need it.
Calm down, I thought you didn't care about any of this stuff.
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I don’t have a timeline, but I feel the onus is on Paizo. My orders and subs have been cancelled, I’ll restart them if it appears that Paizo is a company worth supporting again.
Not much of each dollar I spend here ends up with the staff (who I care about). There are other ways to support people directly.
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The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.
Don't hold your breath. I expect to see them follow the same process they have in the past. First, stay silent for a short period of time until the ranker reaches crescendo levels. Then announce that they are aware of the situations and allegations, are looking into it, and will make a public statement when they have all the facts. Weeks will pass. Someone might occasionally acknowledge that they are still fact-finding and a response is imminent. They may even offer a date to expect said statement. More time will pass. Nothing will happen. The outrage will die down and everything will return to "normal." That is exactly how they have handled virtually every crisis in the past.
I have first-hand knowledge of three incidents where this exact process was followed. Paizo's position as a progressive social-justice minded company is smoke and mirrors. It is absolutely true that some of Paizo's employees are exactly that and work tirelessly towards those efforts, but as a company, especially ownership/management, it is viewed as an inconvenience to tolerate at best, a road-block to sidestep, and at worse a concept to completely ignore. That this is a sudden epiphany to so many people just goes to show how effective their procedures are and how efficient they have become at using them to cover up/brush aside these incidents.
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The gencon keynote will be something to keep on eye on tomorrow.Maybe, maybe not. But given this is now 24 hours plus old and there isn't even a bland "nothing to see here" denial on this site is pretty telling to me. If everything is false then I'd expect a quick denial. Delay suggests, as you say, lawyers getting involved and some sort of PR response being crafted. That leads me to believe that not everything is 100% untrue.The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.
And incidentally, this is not a decision I make lightly. I have been a subscriber since Dungeon and Dragon days but I will not support them any longer unless they can offer some sort of plausible explanation for both what has happened in the CS Team and the accusations made in the Price thread.
I hate to say this, but even if Jessica made up 100% of her allegations and there was definite proof of it, you still wouldn't be seeing an individual response from Jason or Erik. This sort of thing is much too sticky to not go through PR and probably an attorney.
I may be incorrect, it's true, but to my eyes you set an impossible ultimatum.
Oh I'm sure that not everything is 100% untrue. But how much actually is true, particularly among the more egregious or nasty bits, is not a dialog Paizo will want to have started. Even if they're virtually entirely innocent, it's just the start of a mess and spirals everything way wilder.
But I mean, given your personal feelings here, would a bland corporate dismissal satisfy you?
The Keynote was prerecorded so probably not.
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I absolutely love Sara Marie and Diego, they are both brilliant lights of sunshine in a sea of s%#$.
I have no doubt they'll both be better off professionally and financially (as an old boss told me once "if you want a raise, get a job somewhere else!" (I did to both).
That said, I'm not going to be canceling anything, yet, for a few reasons.
1. Pathfinder 2 is just getting to the good stuff (Secrets of Magic, Guns and Gears, Mwangi Harry Potter AP).
2. I absolutely love Starfinder, it's both my favorite RPG, and my favorite RPG setting.
3. I love Starfinder, which I feel I need to reiterate.
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But I mean, given your personal feelings here, would a bland corporate dismissal satisfy you?
It wouldn't at this point. The time for bland corporate denials is some hours past, particularly on the eve of the showcase gaming convention of the year. I am also not optimistic we will get a clarification from Paizo on any of this soon but, as others have noted above, we have only heard one side of the story so before I made my own personal decision on subscriptions I wanted to give the company all the opportunities I could to respond to what are pretty devastating accusations.
In case relevant / of interest, the first post I put on this thread talking about cancelling was purely a reaction to Sara Marie and Diego losing their jobs. I had not, at that point, read the Price thread. Firing good people is reason enough for me to cancel unless Paizo can explain that. The other accusations (if true) not only make me feel terrible for the people who had to suffer this terrible treatment but also make me feel duped by a company I have been loyal to for two decades. A company that pretends to be ethical and isn't is, in my eyes, probably worse than one that doesn't even bother to pretend.
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First, I wish both Sara Marie and Diego all the best. Hopefully you'll find a new job soon.
Second, I wish the remaining Members of the Customer Service all the best too.
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Unless these issues get addressed and redressed I don't see how I can buy any more Paizo products.
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Erik opened up a bit about the occult imagery issues:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/pp0wxf/erik_monas_statement_ on_the_occult_saint_germain/
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Paizo's position as a progressive social-justice minded company is smoke and mirrors.
Any company, selling you any product, that tells you how deeply, deeply concerned and committed they are to progressive social justice is lying. They are companies concerned with making money and those statements are a tactic to make you feel better about giving them your dollars.
-Skeld
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Erik opened up a bit about the occult imagery issues:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/pp0wxf/erik_monas_statement_ on_the_occult_saint_germain/
"Nobody told me that they found my posting nazi symbols in my office offensive" isn't really a good defense. And this was one of the least problematic issues raised by those former employees.
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"Nobody told me that they found my posting nazi symbols in my office offensive" isn't really a good defense. And this was one of the least problematic issues raised by those former employees.Erik opened up a bit about the occult imagery issues:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/pp0wxf/erik_monas_statement_ on_the_occult_saint_germain/
The iron cross is not a Nazi symbol. It was used by the German military long before the Nazis and continues to be to this day. In fact it is the current logo of the Bundeswehr.
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The iron cross is not a Nazi symbol. It was used by the German military long before the Nazis and continues to be to this day. In fact it is the current logo of the Bundeswehr."Nobody told me that they found my posting nazi symbols in my office offensive" isn't really a good defense. And this was one of the least problematic issues raised by those former employees.Erik opened up a bit about the occult imagery issues:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/pp0wxf/erik_monas_statement_ on_the_occult_saint_germain/
Symbolism is complicated. The swastika is thousands of years old, but it now is irrevocably associated with nazism. For those of us who don't study German military history, the iron cross is also seen as a nazi symbol.
But I'll concede the point since, to me, it really is one of the least important offenses described by those employees.
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You’ve also done things questionable and/or downright dumb, ranging from keeping a mindbogglingly outdated IT system that dragged everything you did down (and for the record, while I’m skeptical of Jessica Price, the story about that being a thing because one of your higher-ups gets royalties for the code sounds oddly familiar)
FWIW, I've also heard similar stories, though the royalty thing is new info. No idea if that part is true, but the site was designed and maintained in house.
Leaving That Thread aside, I also wish Sara Marie and Diego the best.
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The iron cross is not a Nazi symbol. It was used by the German military long before the Nazis and continues to be to this day. In fact it is the current logo of the Bundeswehr."Nobody told me that they found my posting nazi symbols in my office offensive" isn't really a good defense. And this was one of the least problematic issues raised by those former employees.Erik opened up a bit about the occult imagery issues:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/pp0wxf/erik_monas_statement_ on_the_occult_saint_germain/
Symbolism is complicated. The swastika is thousands of years old, but it now is irrevocably associated with nazism. For those of us who don't study German military history, the iron cross is also seen as a nazi symbol.
But I'll concede the point since, to me, it really is one of the least important offenses described by those employees.
We're spitballing, but current-day German armed forces are displaying Iron Cross on their vehicles, tanks, ships and aircraft. You don't need to study military history, you need to pull up Wikipedia and see that it's Iron Crosses all over there.
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Ok, I guess I'm not allowed to find a favorite neo-nazi symbol offensive. Got it. I'm done with this conversation, and I'm taking my leave of this site for the near future.
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Wow... just... Wow, I am blown away by this... and am very, very, disappointed in Paizo's management. I am extremely sad to see Diego and Sara Marie depart. Things will not be the same without them and these forums now feel like a darker place. We are diminished by your absence. :(
I want to express just how much I have admired Sara Marie's and Diego's work on behalf of us customers for all these years and they will forever have my gratitude for their (no doubt thankless) jobs. My personal interactions with them on behalf of Paizo have been nothing short of stellar. I have observed how they must have been working weekends and late nights before due to the times they have posted on these forums - especially in recent months. Customer service is a difficult job whose employees never get enough recognition or pay for their always significant contributions to the success of their company. The level of professionalism, competence, and dedication that I have personally observed from both Sara Marie and Diego has always been the standard to which I have compared the customer service of other companies in my interactions with them. I know the cliche is to say that they set the standard, but that would diminish the standards of what I have come to expect from Diego and Sara Marie. Sara Marie and Diego are the Gold Standard that I have come to expect from people in such positions; so much so that I never expect others to match those standards. But, if the CS of those other companies can even attain so much as 10% of what Diego and Sara Marie can do and have done, I consider that 10% to be a baseline standard for customer service by anyone else.
I admire their professionalism, dedication, solidarity, and integrity to stand up for what is right. I wish them all the best and I hope they find a far superior job to any position they have ever held in the past, both professionally, financially, and personally.
To Diego and Sara Marie, if you feel comfortable doing so without compromising anything, please find a way to let us know how you are doing when the time is right and let us know if there is anything we can do to provide assistance, even if it only ends up being for moral support.
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Don't worry, you've made it crystal clear that if something doesn't affect you personally, you prefer to not give thought or energy to the issue.Taking money out of the mouths of starving artists because a lady on Twitter urged you to does not make you a good person.
If Paizo is so great, then why do you say their staff is starving?
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The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.Don't hold your breath. I expect to see them follow the same process they have in the past. First, stay silent for a short period of time until the ranker reaches crescendo levels. Then announce that they are aware of the situations and allegations, are looking into it, and will make a public statement when they have all the facts. Weeks will pass. Someone might occasionally acknowledge that they are still fact-finding and a response is imminent. They may even offer a date to expect said statement. More time will pass. Nothing will happen. The outrage will die down and everything will return to "normal." That is exactly how they have handled virtually every crisis in the past.
I have first-hand knowledge of three incidents where this exact process was followed. Paizo's position as a progressive social-justice minded company is smoke and mirrors. It is absolutely true that some of Paizo's employees are exactly that and work tirelessly towards those efforts, but as a company, especially ownership/management, it is viewed as an inconvenience to tolerate at best, a road-block to sidestep, and at worse a concept to completely ignore. That this is a sudden epiphany to so many people just goes to show how effective their procedures are and how efficient they have become at using them to cover up/brush aside these incidents.
Can you elaborate? I don't know this story.
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Sara Marie was wonderful here on these forums, and IRL. She taught me how to play Five Minute Dungeon at PaizoCon 2018. What a sad development. You are loved & missed Sara Marie!
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Every interaction with Sara Marie I had was professional and a delight. I wish her, and Diego, the best in future endeavors.
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Can you elaborate? I don't know this story.The deafening silence from Paizo seems pretty telling to me. I've tweeted the company, Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn (Jeff Alvarez is not on Twitter) seeking clarification. I'll give them until tomorrow to offer some explanation and if it's not forthcoming I'll be cancelling.Don't hold your breath. I expect to see them follow the same process they have in the past. First, stay silent for a short period of time until the ranker reaches crescendo levels. Then announce that they are aware of the situations and allegations, are looking into it, and will make a public statement when they have all the facts. Weeks will pass. Someone might occasionally acknowledge that they are still fact-finding and a response is imminent. They may even offer a date to expect said statement. More time will pass. Nothing will happen. The outrage will die down and everything will return to "normal." That is exactly how they have handled virtually every crisis in the past.
I have first-hand knowledge of three incidents where this exact process was followed. Paizo's position as a progressive social-justice minded company is smoke and mirrors. It is absolutely true that some of Paizo's employees are exactly that and work tirelessly towards those efforts, but as a company, especially ownership/management, it is viewed as an inconvenience to tolerate at best, a road-block to sidestep, and at worse a concept to completely ignore. That this is a sudden epiphany to so many people just goes to show how effective their procedures are and how efficient they have become at using them to cover up/brush aside these incidents.
He's right, though the Paizo search engine sucks so good luck finding the relevant posts. But yes, Twilightknight is correct, every time there is an uproar or controversy over anything this is their MO for handling it.
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I think their response took a bit long to get out in regards to the Agents of Edgewatch controversy, but they didn't "do nothing" in that case. That's the only one I've been around for.
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I had few interactions with Sara Marie and Diego, but each time it was great and professional. And Sara Marie's clean-up posts were the best.
I wish them the very best luck.
I hope Paizo will continue making great products and have a superb customer service.
Those are basically the 2 legs of any company. And if you treat your employees badly, they go and enrich another company.
BTW, I saw Sara Marie has a LinkedIn profile. I will send her an invite.
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Sara Marie was always an advocate for her people. She stood up for their needs and made sure they got as much as she could for her team. Something that makes a great manager. I think she was easily one of the hardest workers there.
Diego is a f@~@ing lion with the heart of a colossus.
Paizo will be diminished without them there.
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Sara Marie was always an advocate for her people. She stood up for their needs and made sure they got as much as she could for her team. Something that makes a great manager. I think she was easily one of the hardest workers there.
Diego is a f@!!ing lion with the heart of a colossus.
Paizo will be diminished without them there.
Eloquent, far more eloquent than me.
Also it's good to see you again.
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I will miss you both. I am sorry this is what brings me back to this forum.....
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Thank you for being the reassuring email, the pleasant post, the calming presence in the chaotic anger of the internet that spilled into this forum.
Thank you for the lunch, the office tour, the replacement map when a lamination machine when rogue (or rouge, if you prefer).
Thank you for the kindness, the understanding, the helpfulness, the patience.
Thank you for everything.
You will be missed.
Seconded. And, Diego, thank you so much for the comfort, friendliness, and assistance you've given. Your absence will make the place a little colder.
God bless, guide and be with you both in this next leg in your journeys. Thanks for all the good ones, here.
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"Nobody told me that they found my posting nazi symbols in my office offensive" isn't really a good defense. And this was one of the least problematic issues raised by those former employees.
I just want to point out that Erik didn't post Nazi symbols in his office. Neither the I AM movement nor theosophy are inherently fascist or nationalistic. The only Nazi symbol talked about was the Swastika he unknowingly posted on facebook and he put that down immediately when he got informed about it ("an honest mistake that was probably online for less than an hour total.")
And about the Count Saint-Germain? I can see how someone with jewish origins could feel uncomfortable about that guy, especially when you know about his connection to the then popular myth of the "wandering jew" that was later heavily abused by the Nazis, but that doesn't make him into a nazi symbol
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You're always welcome at our table, Sara. I gamed with you before Paizo, I'll game with you after :)
Same goes out to Diego - though it sounds like a move is in the works, I still hope one day we can play more Star Wars games together. Lots of ways online these days :D