Lord's Banner of the Crusades vs Darkskull


Rules Questions


Can someone help me determine the math here?

The Lord's Banner of the Crusades costs 100,000 gp. It's entry (APG):

Quote:

A noble-looking lord’s banner of crusades emits a hallow effect in a 40-foot radius around it, so long as it is borne by one true to the religion of the person whose crest is on the banner (these sorts of banners usually have a holy symbol or other religious insignia worked into the design). The banner displays the faith’s holy symbol along with the owner’s crest.[/QUEST]

The Darkskull costs 60,000 gp (Core). It's entry:

Quote:
This skull, carved from ebony, is wholly evil. Wherever the skull goes, the area around it is treated as though an unhallow spell had been cast with the skull as the touched point of origin. Each darkskull has a single spell effect tied to it. This spell is from the standard list given in the unhallow spell description, and it cannot be changed.

The only difference from what I can tell, is that the Banner has MORE restrictions (must be mounted on a polearm or pole, planted in the ground, and carried by a member of the faith), and that the Darkskull specifically states that is has it's spell assigned to it at creation.

It's hard to calculate directly because:
A. Hallow's duration is so long that you could consider it a "single use" item and it would still last a year
B. You have two spells involved (the Hallow and whatever effect you tether to it), so does the typical duration of the second spell matter when creating an item?
C. I cannot find anything regarding what happens when you take a spell meant to be stationary and place it into a mobile object

So I have two different items, and the game doesn't give enough info (for me) to determine why the two are so different in costs.

What's to stop a person from casting a Hallow version of the spell onto an object for the same price? (Also, considering the variable cost of materials, it is a bit weird that the Darkskull has only one price regardless of what spell is tethered to it)

Liberty's Edge

Hallow:
1) Range touch
Area 40-ft. radius emanating from the touched point
You touch a point, not an object;
2) Hallow makes a particular site, building, or structure a holy site. This has four major effects.

So, normally, you can't cast Hallow or Unhallow on a movable object. You cast the spell on a point and it affects a fixed area.

The Lord's Banner of the Crusades needs to be attended if carried, while it can be left unattended if planted on the ground.
The Darkskull isn't so different. It still works if moved by an opponent, but isn't particularly difficult to carry it away, throw it in a bag of holding so it so that it will not affect the location or neutralize it in other ways. It is a skull, there is nothing in the description that says that is especially hard, so a hit with any weapon doing a few points of damage will break it. Bone armor has a hardness of 5, but it is not armor, I would give it a hardness of 2 or so, 5 vs piercing weapons.
A cloth banner will have a hardness of 1, but piercing and bashing weapons will be ineffective against it (you will see military banners riddled by bullet holes in plenty of museums, and they still are banners). The pole is harder but is a normal wooden pole (unless you use something more substantial).

All considered, the main difference is versatility: the Darkskull has a predefined spell linked to it, the Banner has a variable spell, decided every time you activate it by raising it. An advantage and a disadvantage at the same time, as the linked spell will be unlinked if the banner is lowered even for a moment.
As an added disadvantage, the Banner of the Crusades says "so long as it is borne by one true to the religion of the person whose crest is on the banner", so, in theory, that banner has specific rules and works only when there is a creature bearing it. I think that RAI is that if the guy that planted the banner had the right faith it will still function if unattended, but RAW it needs to be attended.

All things considered, the Banner is slightly better if you consider the probable RAI, worse if we go strictly RAW.
If we go probable RAI the difference seems to be relevantenough to be worth the difference in price.

The Exchange

Skrayper wrote:

Can someone help me determine the math here?

...
So I have two different items, and the game doesn't give enough info (for me) to determine why the two are so different in costs.

What's to stop a person from casting a Hallow version of the spell onto an object for the same price? (Also, considering the variable cost of materials, it is a bit weird that the Darkskull has only one price regardless of what spell is tethered to it)

The Darkskull is a legacy item that's been around since older versions of D&D. That's true for a fair number of the items in the Pathfinder 1E Core Rulebook. Many of those item prices have been set for years or decades. When the APG was published the designers decided that a mobile hallow should be priced a LOT higher than the Darkskull would indicate.

So the answer to your first question is that no, we can't help determine the math. There isn't a mathematical reason for it. These are two of the many items that are priced by art rather than formula. If you consider hallow and unhallow to be equal and opposite, then the Darkskull is objectively a much better deal. The Lord's Banner of Crusades is just a hallow (doesn't get a spell tied to it) and costs more.

As for your second question, "what's stopping you" is just whether or not your GM allows you to do so. There isn't such an item published by Paizo. If you're playing a campaign where you have to buy everything exactly per the book you can't do it. For most campaigns I wouldn't allow it. Again, it's art rather than formulae.


Also, a Hallow effect is required for finishing off several powerful undead, while an Unhallow effect isn't really useful for any such type or other type of creature. I wouldn't be surprised if this was taken into mind when pricing the item, as its rather expensive and resource consuming in certain campaigns if you have to constantly prepare a hallow spell so you dont worry about a demilich, mummy lord, or other powerful undead coming from behind after you thought you took care of it.

The Exchange

Yeah, what the AvatarStealingDog said.

A permanent, mobile, hallow is either incredibly good (in an evil-summons or undead-heavy campaign) or only worth buying if it is very cheap (otherwise). Either way, the price should be pretty high. (From the viewpoint of a GM/adventure writer, not that of a player who really likes cool stuff.)

Mummy Lord:
Never really looked at that template before. "consecrate, hallow, and then dispel evil, cast in consecutive rounds and in that order." That's going to be really hard to do with hallow's 24-hour cast time.


Everything you guys have said makes sense - I think if we're going to use a "mobile" Hallow, we'll need something like the Lord's Banner of the Crusades (100,000 - does not have a spell tethered to the Hallow, so not sure if you can add one or not) or the more powerful but way more expensive Bastion Banner (182,000 - gets one of the effects, plus a secondary effect from the spell tethered to Hallow).

The Bastion Banner is probably the overall best (because then I don't have to fret over the rules regarding it all - everything is just built-in), but is a lot of money for a level 12 group (even with a crafter).

But yeah... I think I'll aim for that one as to avoid the pickle that is Pathfinder spell mechanics :p


@Belafon, there's two ways to look at how the Hallow spell would work there with the mummy lord, aside from using the item that "casts" hallow when you simply place it in the ground. Either you can cast hallow like you can cast resurrection on certain undead as a standard action instead of 1 minute cast time and without material components but only specifically to destroy the regenerating mummy lord, or you simply have someone else cast the consecrate a round before the hallow spell finishes it's 24 hours and hope the mummy lord didn't roll a 1 on its d10 regenerate time.

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