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At least 3 out of 4 listed possibilities (Cook, Lift, Tidy) are effects covered by said school, so why is it an Evocation effect of all other schools (other than the now gone "Universal school")?
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Cook and Tidy are transmutation and illusion, Lift is now evocation (because they have made all the telekinesis effects evocation) and Make is conjuration.
I don't see why it could not have traits for all 4 of those schools.
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Schools of magic haven't made sense for decades, even though (or especially because) it's one of those things that has gotten changed around with every new edition or sub-edition since like 1989.
The main issue being that it's not as much what an effect is but how it is produced that determines which school something fits into in the first place, so anything that could be described as being done in multiple different ways is easy to put in multiple different schools. And even back when spells were allowed to just have multiple different schools that results in a problem of something is going to end up being kind of the "everything ended up in there" bucket. Way back when it was the alteration (now called transmutation) school, and in PF2 it's the evocation school that has picked up the role of most stuffed-full school.
Maybe the designers deliberately leaned toward making things evocation because it's one of the more popular specialist schools? I have no idea.
I'm constantly in a state of internal argument about fixing the school of all the spells that are in the game and talking myself out of it because it is far more effort than is actually worth the result (which in practical terms would be that nothing is actually different in practice, since gouging claw came along and gave my tranmuter-favoring friend his favorite cantrip that he's going to use even when he's not playing a transmuter specialist).
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Well in PF1 Prestidigitation used to be an Universal cantrip given that you know.... It has effects from multiple schools of magic. I still don't understand why universal was removed.
But it seems like PF2 decided to make a ton of Universal and Transmutation spells into Conjuration and Evocation. Which has made Transmutation so much worse overall. Transmutation was left being just "shapeshift the school". As opposed to the previous, "control and manipulate existing material".
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Temperans wrote: Transmutation was left being just "shapeshift the school". As opposed to the previous, "control and manipulate existing material". Transmutation should include the various shapeshifting and battle form spells. And there are a lot of them.
But there are still 'control and manipulate existing material' spells. Shape Wood, Shape Stone, Dismantle, Expeditious Excavation, Ghostly Weapon, Knock, Mending, Rusting Grasp, Pyrotechnics...
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It's not the same extent as before thou.
It has a lot more shapeshift than matter manipulation now.
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PF2 writers don't seem to like Transmutation, and so they keep taking out spells from that school, or nerfing into ground any that are left (ex. Animate Rope, or compare Expeditious Excavation to Telekinetic Maneuver).
And in general, the rule seems to be to move spells into Evocation.
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thenobledrake wrote: I'm constantly in a state of internal argument about fixing the school of all the spells that are in the game and talking myself out of it because it is far more effort than is actually worth the result (which in practical terms would be that nothing is actually different in practice, since gouging claw came along and gave my tranmuter-favoring friend his favorite cantrip that he's going to use even when he's not playing a transmuter specialist). It would give any Runelord players more options to pick from. So far that's the only thing I can think of it'd change.
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The way I read it, there are two that are evocation (heat and lift), one this is conjuration (make) and one that is arguably transmutation (tidy). I don't think it is so erroneous to classify it as evocation, but there is certainly an argument for the other two schools.
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Albatoonoe wrote: The way I read it, there are two that are evocation (heat and lift), one this is conjuration (make) and one that is arguably transmutation (tidy). I don't think it is so erroneous to classify it as evocation, but there is certainly an argument for the other two schools. With illusion or transmutation for flavoring.
I still fail to see how cooking and moving objects is not transmutation. You are taking 1 object and changing it to another object by heating, cooling, or altering its composition. Similarly, with lift you are taking an object and changing its location.
The idea that those options are "evocation" baffles me.
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Temperans wrote: I still fail to see how cooking and moving objects is not transmutation. You are taking 1 object and changing it to another object by heating, cooling, or altering its composition. Similarly, with lift you are taking an object and changing its location.
The idea that those options are "evocation" baffles me.
Right, and a Fireball changes a person into a charred or burnt person, while a Telekinetic Manuever changes the location of a person or their weapon.
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Temperans wrote: I still fail to see how cooking and moving objects is not transmutation. You are taking 1 object and changing it to another object by heating, cooling, or altering its composition. Similarly, with lift you are taking an object and changing its location.
The idea that those options are "evocation" baffles me.
Cooking is infusing (or extracting for cooling) an object with the energy of Heat. It's like Produce Flame but much, much more limited. Transmutation could maybe do the same thing, changing the innate temperature, but that just feels more weird to me than the effect of Cooking working the way Cooking (or Refrigerating, as applicable) normally works, by introducing heat from outside (or purging it elsewhere). As for Lift, well... TBH I never really understood telekinetic effects as Transmutation. Like... maybe it's just me, but to me Transmutation is modifying the innate property of something, and in my eyes "Position" isn't an innate property.
And then as people have mentioned Creation is more Conjuration than anything, and Tidying could be Transmutation or Illusion.
Temperans wrote: Well in PF1 Prestidigitation used to be an Universal cantrip given that you know.... It has effects from multiple schools of magic. I still don't understand why universal was removed.
But it seems like PF2 decided to make a ton of Universal and Transmutation spells into Conjuration and Evocation. Which has made Transmutation so much worse overall. Transmutation was left being just "shapeshift the school". As opposed to the previous, "control and manipulate existing material".
AFAIK, Universal spells were really rare in PF1 anyway, with only a handful of spells specifically called out as Universal. And with them being so rare, making a Universal tradition (or just the exception to the rule) seems a waste, if it rarely comes up anyhow.
Shinigami02 wrote: Temperans wrote: I still fail to see how cooking and moving objects is not transmutation. You are taking 1 object and changing it to another object by heating, cooling, or altering its composition. Similarly, with lift you are taking an object and changing its location.
The idea that those options are "evocation" baffles me.
Cooking is infusing (or extracting for cooling) an object with the energy of Heat. It's like Produce Flame but much, much more limited. Transmutation could maybe do the same thing, changing the innate temperature, but that just feels more weird to me than the effect of Cooking working the way Cooking (or Refrigerating, as applicable) normally works, by introducing heat from outside (or purging it elsewhere). As for Lift, well... TBH I never really understood telekinetic effects as Transmutation. Like... maybe it's just me, but to me Transmutation is modifying the innate property of something, and in my eyes "Position" isn't an innate property.
And then as people have mentioned Creation is more Conjuration than anything, and Tidying could be Transmutation or Illusion. Maybe this is a different in how we imagine how the spell works.
I imagine that the spell works by either speeding up or slowing down the molecules of the object. Making it a transmutation effect. But it sounds like you are imagine it as literally putting energy in it or extracting it.
The to me telekinetic effects is manipulating the object gravity (an innate property) making it possible to lift it (transmutation). But it feels like you imagine it as putting energy into it so that it lifts up (evocation).
We agree on tidying being transmutation/illusion. I lean more towards transmutation due to how illusion spells scale (you don't get "senses or touch" until higher levels.
We also agree on creation being conjuration.
Xenocrat wrote: Temperans wrote: I still fail to see how cooking and moving objects is not transmutation. You are taking 1 object and changing it to another object by heating, cooling, or altering its composition. Similarly, with lift you are taking an object and changing its location.
The idea that those options are "evocation" baffles me.
Right, and a Fireball changes a person into a charred or burnt person, while a Telekinetic Manuever changes the location of a person or their weapon. You do know that flash explosion (like fireball) do cause burns rights? Evocation has always been about materializing energy in one way or another. Conjuration about materializing matter. Transmutation about morphing and manipulating matter.
I don't get your argument.
Quentin Coldwater wrote: AFAIK, Universal spells were really rare in PF1 anyway, with only a handful of spells specifically called out as Universal. And with them being so rare, making a Universal tradition (or just the exception to the rule) seems a waste, if it rarely comes up anyhow. You see that makes sense if Paizo didn't have the power to add more spell of that school. I guess that part of my comment was more to the effect of "what was wrong with adding more universal school spells?" You know?
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