Best spells to take as a magus

[aobst128]

Found an interesting usage of the elemental wrath elf feat. Makes acid splash only verbal, so it won't provoke reactions. What other interesting spells and combos are good for the magus?

[pauljathome]

Its a level 4 spell so not getting it for awhile, but Draw the Lightning seems like a really good deal for the slot limited Magus.

Decent damage on the spell itself (not great, but decent). But you're then doing an additional D12 electricity damage for the rest of the combat.

Best on a small or tiny character as I suspect some GMs are going to look very warily at a player of a 3'2" tall human using this :-) (one triggering condition is "a creature that is taller than you")

[HumbleGamer]

Haste!

[Castilliano]

There are going to be tons I'd think, what with so many Hybrids, weapons, and the different party compositions and Dedication feats. Funnily enough, a lot of the go-to spells I've thought of have already been included in the Magus class, its Hybrids, or its feats. Paizo with the foresight there. :)

That said, I applaud your observation re: Elemental Wrath!
It's not the best spell, but then again it is when surrounded by a pack of wolves or troop of Hobgoblins w/ AoOs. And you can switch its damage to an energy that more often triggers a Weakness for that splash damage, like fire or cold (probably depending on which spell you prefer to cover the other energy type).
And for the record, there still remain some Reactions it'll provoke for casting or concentrating, they're just rare and I believe all high level.

---

I like the idea of picking up a Divine MCD to get Good damage w/ Divine Lance, assuming one faces as many Fiends as I unleash on my players :) and the Rune not being available until mid-game. One can also go a bit deeper to get some good buffs, possibly via items. Searing Light would be great (albeit circumstantial) spell-attack spell to gain access to.

[aobst128]

Castilliano wrote:

There are going to be tons I'd think, what with so many Hybrids, weapons, and the different party compositions and Dedication feats. Funnily enough, a lot of the go-to spells I've thought of have already been included in the Magus class, its Hybrids, or its feats. Paizo with the foresight there. :)

That said, I applaud your observation re: Elemental Wrath!
It's not the best spell, but then again it is when surrounded by a pack of wolves or troop of Hobgoblins w/ AoOs. And you can switch its damage to an energy that more often triggers a Weakness for that splash damage, like fire or cold (probably depending on which spell you prefer to cover the other energy type).
And for the record, there still remain some Reactions it'll provoke for casting or concentrating, they're just rare and I believe all high level.

---

I like the idea of picking up a Divine MCD to get Good damage w/ Divine Lance, assuming one faces as many Fiends as I unleash on my players :) and the Rune not being available until mid-game. One can also go a bit deeper to get some good buffs, possibly via items. Searing Light would be great (albeit circumstantial) spell-attack spell to gain access to.

Yeah, I was originally looking at it for the damage options. Having acid splash be electric would give the magus access to all elemental damage for attack rolls, then I noticed it made it verbal only. You'd be splashing yourself if you don't have reach and you'd have to use charisma for bonus damage but handy in a pinch. If only elves could get access to the flickmace lol. A cleric or sorcerer multiclass for the divine list would be pretty interesting. You could use admonishing ray with unarmed attacks to pummel foes nonleathaly. Bless is also a great option.

[Dubious Scholar]

Blazing Dive.

[Ventnor]

Twisting Tree Magi are actually fairly good users of AOE spells like Fireball because of the Lunging Spellstrike feat that they have access to.

[aobst128]

Witch would be a the least mad option for the divine list. Plus, spellstrike with living hair.

[Dargath]

My answer would be: the ones you like.

However I suppose you're looking for something more along the min/max side of things being "What's the best possible and most possible efficient use of my limited spell slots?" and to that, I have no idea. I have never been a great judge of power and I don't know how people have developed systems to compare these things.

[Dargath]

aobst128 wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

There are going to be tons I'd think, what with so many Hybrids, weapons, and the different party compositions and Dedication feats. Funnily enough, a lot of the go-to spells I've thought of have already been included in the Magus class, its Hybrids, or its feats. Paizo with the foresight there. :)

That said, I applaud your observation re: Elemental Wrath!
It's not the best spell, but then again it is when surrounded by a pack of wolves or troop of Hobgoblins w/ AoOs. And you can switch its damage to an energy that more often triggers a Weakness for that splash damage, like fire or cold (probably depending on which spell you prefer to cover the other energy type).
And for the record, there still remain some Reactions it'll provoke for casting or concentrating, they're just rare and I believe all high level.

---

I like the idea of picking up a Divine MCD to get Good damage w/ Divine Lance, assuming one faces as many Fiends as I unleash on my players :) and the Rune not being available until mid-game. One can also go a bit deeper to get some good buffs, possibly via items. Searing Light would be great (albeit circumstantial) spell-attack spell to gain access to.

Yeah, I was originally looking at it for the damage options. Having acid splash be electric would give the magus access to all elemental damage for attack rolls, then I noticed it made it verbal only. You'd be splashing yourself if you don't have reach and you'd have to use charisma for bonus damage but handy in a pinch. If only elves could get access to the flickmace lol. A cleric or sorcerer multiclass for the divine list would be pretty interesting. You could use admonishing ray with unarmed attacks to pummel foes nonleathaly. Bless is also a great option.

Well to be honest you could be a Gnome Half-Elf and still grab the Elemental Wrath feat and yoink a flickmace too. Although probably only for home games, I don't know the specific rules exactly off the top of my head for PFS.

Edit: For what it's worth a Magus can cast regular spells like any caster, so limiting yourself to thinking inside the box of purely spellstrike can be a mental trap. If you consider using Fireball as regularly (no spell strike, just using fireball like a Sorcerer or Wizard) it can be as good as it is.

Although some people I've seen argue that due to spell slots and what-not it may be a poor choice to use slots like this because we have so few compared to full on whole casters. I don't know what the difference is. Not sure why a wizard fireball is better than a magus fireball cast like a spell. Isn't Fireball Fireball?

[Riddlyn]

Dargath wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

There are going to be tons I'd think, what with so many Hybrids, weapons, and the different party compositions and Dedication feats. Funnily enough, a lot of the go-to spells I've thought of have already been included in the Magus class, its Hybrids, or its feats. Paizo with the foresight there. :)

That said, I applaud your observation re: Elemental Wrath!
It's not the best spell, but then again it is when surrounded by a pack of wolves or troop of Hobgoblins w/ AoOs. And you can switch its damage to an energy that more often triggers a Weakness for that splash damage, like fire or cold (probably depending on which spell you prefer to cover the other energy type).
And for the record, there still remain some Reactions it'll provoke for casting or concentrating, they're just rare and I believe all high level.

---

I like the idea of picking up a Divine MCD to get Good damage w/ Divine Lance, assuming one faces as many Fiends as I unleash on my players :) and the Rune not being available until mid-game. One can also go a bit deeper to get some good buffs, possibly via items. Searing Light would be great (albeit circumstantial) spell-attack spell to gain access to.

Yeah, I was originally looking at it for the damage options. Having acid splash be electric would give the magus access to all elemental damage for attack rolls, then I noticed it made it verbal only. You'd be splashing yourself if you don't have reach and you'd have to use charisma for bonus damage but handy in a pinch. If only elves could get access to the flickmace lol. A cleric or sorcerer multiclass for the divine list would be pretty interesting. You could use admonishing ray with unarmed attacks to pummel foes nonleathaly. Bless is also a great option.

Well to be honest you could be a Gnome Half-Elf and still grab the Elemental Wrath feat and yoink a flickmace too. Although probably only for home games, I don't know the specific rules exactly off the top of my head for

...

Because some people want to dump INT. Personally I got my INT to 18. Magus get expert and master 2 levels behind full casters. So I generally only prepare 1 attack spell for spellstrike and leave the rest for crowd control

[Exocist]

Non-attack Non-DC spells IMO. Spending spell slots on single target damage is just bad, it might look cool but its a huge gamble for something that isn't that much better than a cantrip really.

AoE damage I just think is pretty terrible in general once you hit around level 7-8 and mooks have too much hp for it to meaningfully affect combat.

Invisibility 4, Wall of Stone, Disappearance and the like is what I'd go with.

Lunging Spellstrike I'd get a familiar for when you need the reach. Grab Independent and Manual Dexterity, have it start with 2 scrolls in hand (and you with 1 scroll in hand). Level-7 or 8 Shocking Grasp scrolls still do more than your cantrips and are absurdly cheap.

You definitely don't want to be casting anything with a DC once you hit level 15.

[beowulf99]

Riddlyn wrote:

Because some people want to dump INT. Personally I got my INT to 18. Magus get expert and master 2 levels behind full casters. So I generally only prepare 1 attack spell for spellstrike and leave the rest for crowd control

I can respect that. But I just can't shake the feeling that pumping Int to 18 instead of your attack modifier ability is a bit of a trap in PF2 for the Magus. The system generally wants a more than 1 combat day, and in character building my philosophy is to build for the things you do all day, and sprinkle in the "Nova" stuff where appropriate. Your limited spell slots qualify in my mind.

Since you'll spend a lot more of your time doing Martial things in your average encounter, focus there. Especially in the early levels where the game tends to be a bit deadlier than normal.

At least that is my philosophy on things. YMMV.

[Riddlyn]

beowulf99 wrote:

Riddlyn wrote:

Because some people want to dump INT. Personally I got my INT to 18. Magus get expert and master 2 levels behind full casters. So I generally only prepare 1 attack spell for spellstrike and leave the rest for crowd control

I can respect that. But I just can't shake the feeling that pumping Int to 18 instead of your attack modifier ability is a bit of a trap in PF2 for the Magus. The system generally wants a more than 1 combat day, and in character building my philosophy is to build for the things you do all day, and sprinkle in the "Nova" stuff where appropriate. Your limited spell slots qualify in my mind.

Since you'll spend a lot more of your time doing Martial things in your average encounter, focus there. Especially in the early levels where the game tends to be a bit deadlier than normal.

At least that is my philosophy on things. YMMV.

actually my STR is 18 too. I want the str for when I'm being more martial. INT for when I do magely things. And having them both there makes my spellstrike really effective

[beowulf99]

Riddlyn wrote:

beowulf99 wrote:

Riddlyn wrote:

Because some people want to dump INT. Personally I got my INT to 18. Magus get expert and master 2 levels behind full casters. So I generally only prepare 1 attack spell for spellstrike and leave the rest for crowd control

I can respect that. But I just can't shake the feeling that pumping Int to 18 instead of your attack modifier ability is a bit of a trap in PF2 for the Magus. The system generally wants a more than 1 combat day, and in character building my philosophy is to build for the things you do all day, and sprinkle in the "Nova" stuff where appropriate. Your limited spell slots qualify in my mind.

Since you'll spend a lot more of your time doing Martial things in your average encounter, focus there. Especially in the early levels where the game tends to be a bit deadlier than normal.

At least that is my philosophy on things. YMMV.

actually my STR is 18 too. I want the str for when I'm being more martial. INT for when I do magely things. And having them both there makes my spellstrike really effective

Ah, post level 5 then? Got it. Did you take one or the other to 18 pre-ability boost?

[Riddlyn]

beowulf99 wrote:

Riddlyn wrote:

beowulf99 wrote:

Riddlyn wrote:

Because some people want to dump INT. Personally I got my INT to 18. Magus get expert and master 2 levels behind full casters. So I generally only prepare 1 attack spell for spellstrike and leave the rest for crowd control

I can respect that. But I just can't shake the feeling that pumping Int to 18 instead of your attack modifier ability is a bit of a trap in PF2 for the Magus. The system generally wants a more than 1 combat day, and in character building my philosophy is to build for the things you do all day, and sprinkle in the "Nova" stuff where appropriate. Your limited spell slots qualify in my mind.

Since you'll spend a lot more of your time doing Martial things in your average encounter, focus there. Especially in the early levels where the game tends to be a bit deadlier than normal.

At least that is my philosophy on things. YMMV.

actually my STR is 18 too. I want the str for when I'm being more martial. INT for when I do magely things. And having them both there makes my spellstrike really effective

Ah, post level 5 then? Got it. Did you take one or the other to 18 pre-ability boost?

I started them both at 16. And I just hit level 6.

[Castilliano]

Most of my Magus concepts dump Int, so spells that are non-offensive & non-counteracting work best (and as well as for any other caster). There are so few slots to bother pumping up a stat to be competitive.

Or so I thought until realizing Int=damage for Cantrips, and Cantrips will be part of nearly every Spellstrike. Doh.
Gotta keep up Str & the Save stas...and Int? Double Doh.
I guess I might have to try to get Str & Int to 18 as well as the save stats and have my attack stat (Dex or Str) be my only focus for beyond 18. Hmm.

That said, I do like having the option of an effective practitioner of magic that's a little feeble on the mental stats. :P

[Unicore]

A 14 Int vs a 16 int at lvl 1 is only one behind on damage, but can get a defense boost that the magus pretty desperately needs with only 8 hp. It can be easy to get in a mind set that attributes are an all or nothing proposition. But that only really holds weight when the attribute is tied to essential D20 rolls.

[roquepo]

I would use my slots in defensive spells mostly. Things like Mirror Image, 4th level Invisibility and such with the ocasional Acid Arrow or Shocking Grasp for more damage than cantrips when the enemy is debuffed or when I get a bonus to attacks.

[Unicore]

Shocking grasp is amazingly effective with spell strike as just a raw damage dealing spell. Getting item bonuses and being combined with the attack for the sake of truestrike makes it a really heavy boss hitter. Right up there with a fighter's single target damage capacity.

[Sanityfaerie]

aobst128 wrote:

If only elves could get access to the flickmace lol.

Half-elf. Human for poaching flickmace, elf for the elemental wrath.

[Lelomenia]

Unicore wrote:

Shocking grasp is amazingly effective with spell strike as just a raw damage dealing spell. Getting item bonuses and being combined with the attack for the sake of truestrike makes it a really heavy boss hitter. Right up there with a fighter's single target damage capacity.

if you are spending your spell slots to be ‘right up there’ with single target damage classes for a few rounds per day, what is the value in being a magus, as assumptively you are worse than them for single target damage the rest of the day and worse defensively all day?

[Kalaam]

Lelomenia wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Shocking grasp is amazingly effective with spell strike as just a raw damage dealing spell. Getting item bonuses and being combined with the attack for the sake of truestrike makes it a really heavy boss hitter. Right up there with a fighter's single target damage capacity.

if you are spending your spell slots to be ‘right up there’ with single target damage classes for a few rounds per day, what is the value in being a magus, as assumptively you are worse than them for single target damage the rest of the day and worse defensively all day?

You're litteraly the best at targetting weaknesses.

Anything that has a weakness you can trigger it every single round as soon as you get into arcane cascade.

Weak to sonic damage ? Use a spell that deal that type of damage, enter the cascade and now every attack you do deals xdX+weakness.

[gesalt]

Lelomenia wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Shocking grasp is amazingly effective with spell strike as just a raw damage dealing spell. Getting item bonuses and being combined with the attack for the sake of truestrike makes it a really heavy boss hitter. Right up there with a fighter's single target damage capacity.

if you are spending your spell slots to be ‘right up there’ with single target damage classes for a few rounds per day, what is the value in being a magus, as assumptively you are worse than them for single target damage the rest of the day and worse defensively all day?

The value is not using your slots for damage and instead using them for combat defense and utility on par with a full caster instead of being behind as with a casting archetype on a martial.

That said, most combats are short enough that if you true strike spellstrike-shocking grasps on the boss 2 or 3 times you'll look like a superstar. You'll just be a wet noodle compared to the fighter before that point.

Kalaam wrote:

You're litteraly the best at targetting weaknesses.

I feel like weakness doesn't come up nearly often enough to get excited about that. Probably feels great the one or two times you fight a golem or if you steal divine lance and cut up some demons. Though if you're going to fight those en masse you'd just spec your weapon for it in advance.

[Unicore]

I miss spoke. A magus with on level shocking grasp will out damage a fighter with any 2 action activity or attack against a boss enemy.

Power attack never comes close to catching up with spell strike as a 2 action damage dealing activity tied to one attack roll that can be rerolled with a true strike or a hero point.

In a pinch, when the chips are down and one player gets one turn to win and encounter with a nova attack round, I'd rather have a magus than a fighter.

[Dubious Scholar]

Unicore wrote:

I miss spoke. A magus with on level shocking grasp will out damage a fighter with any 2 action activity or attack against a boss enemy.

Power attack never comes close to catching up with spell strike as a 2 action damage dealing activity tied to one attack roll that can be rerolled with a true strike or a hero point.

In a pinch, when the chips are down and one player gets one turn to win and encounter with a nova attack round, I'd rather have a magus than a fighter.

And if they're already in position, True Strike>Spellstrike is an option, making for an even bigger nova.

Spellstrike is well ahead of any other two-action attack activity just using a cantrip though. And True Strike can be pulled in from a staff to get several uses per day at higher levels (via Fused Staff, in particular).

[Sanityfaerie]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Spellstrike is well ahead of any other two-action attack activity just using a cantrip though. And True Strike can be pulled in from a staff to get several uses per day at higher levels (via Fused Staff, in particular).

Is it? Base cantrip is doing lvld6 plus spellcasting ability mod, max... and maybe something small but nice on a crit. Assuming you want to prioritize hitting things (and thus put the 18 in your physical attack stat), that's going to start out at 1d6+3. So, at first level, you're talking about the same amount of extra damage as a fighter's Power Attack with a d12 weapon... except that the fighter has +2 to hit from having better weapon proficiency.

Draconic Rage Barbarians don't have the special two-action attack or the extra weapon proficiency, but they *do* have +4 to damage from raging, which means that at first level, their one action attack is only lagging the cantrip Spellstrike by 2.5 damage on average... and they only spent one action on it, so they get to take a second swing as well. The MAP gets a bit ugly, sure, but I wouldn't describe that as "well ahead".

Maybe it gets significantly better by comparison at higher levels? Does it?

Note that I'm not trying to say that the Magus is a bad class, here. I don't think they are. I'm just questioning that specific assertion that you made, because it looks off to me.

[Xenocrat]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

And True Strike can be pulled in from a staff to get several uses per day at higher levels (via Fused Staff, in particular).

Alas, no. Fused Staff only lets you cast spells from the staff that will be used as part of your Spellstrike. If you're casting the spell as normal, like with True Strike, it has to be in staff form. That's one big advantage the staff magus has when using his otherwise generally lesser damage, reach/range, and defense compared to the other specialities - he can still spam plenty of True Strikes from a staff of divination to boost his cantrip spellstrikes.

Warding Agression becomes pretty useful to such a Magus who can spam True Strike to keep the spell's effects going on subsequent rounds.

[Unicore]

3 of the Magus hybrid studies let you use a staff as a weapon and benefit from something like a staff of divination, although twisting staff might have the most fun with it, maybe. A D8 instead of a D12 is a big shift down for the Inexorable Iron Magus, but having your level's worth of true strikes might make that worth it anyway.

[Squiggit]

Kalaam wrote:

You're litteraly the best at targetting weaknesses.
Anything that has a weakness you can trigger it every single round as soon as you get into arcane cascade.

Weak to sonic damage ? Use a spell that deal that type of damage, enter the cascade and now every attack you do deals xdX+weakness.

Feel like this is being overstated a bit. You don't have a lot of spell slots to target weaknesses with.

You can use cantrips to cover cold/fire/bludgeon/pierce/slash/acid/force but that requires you to be spending all your cantrip slots to get that though.

[Exocist]

Spellstrike w/ cantrip is actually behind fighter/barb/ranger doing 2 strikes by about 10%. Don’t mistake the large number of dice being rolled and the damage all being lumped on one attack for the fact that it does a lot more damage. It doesn’t. A slotted spell or focus spell is about 20-30% more damage at max spell level.

Similarly, True Strike spellstrike (w/ cantrip) is worse than True Strike Power Attack on the fighter.

Math @ level 11

Magus damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 2 + 6d6 (21) + 4 = 52

Magus maximum damage w/ Inexorable Iron = 0.6(52) + 0.1(52) +0.1(6d4 persistent) = 36.4 + persistent

Fighter damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 3 = 28

Fighter max damage = 0.7 (28)+0.2(28)+0.45(28)+0.05(28)=1.4(28)=39.2

And this is one of the better levels for magus, on either side of this fighter gains damage relatively.

[Riddlyn]

Exocist wrote:

Spellstrike w/ cantrip is actually behind fighter/barb/ranger doing 2 strikes by about 10%. Don’t mistake the large number of dice being rolled and the damage all being lumped on one attack for the fact that it does a lot more damage. It doesn’t. A slotted spell or focus spell is about 20-30% more damage at max spell level.

Similarly, True Strike spellstrike (w/ cantrip) is worse than True Strike Power Attack on the fighter.

Math @ level 11

Magus damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 2 + 6d6 (21) + 4 = 52

Magus maximum damage w/ Inexorable Iron = 0.6(52) + 0.1(52) +0.1(6d4 persistent) = 36.4 + persistent

Fighter damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 3 = 28

Fighter max damage = 0.7 (28)+0.2(28)+0.45(28)+0.05(28)=1.4(28)=39.2

And this is one of the better levels for magus, on either side of this fighter gains damage relatively.

What's your breakdown on the Magus damage?

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Exocist wrote:

Spellstrike w/ cantrip is actually behind fighter/barb/ranger doing 2 strikes by about 10%. Don’t mistake the large number of dice being rolled and the damage all being lumped on one attack for the fact that it does a lot more damage. It doesn’t. A slotted spell or focus spell is about 20-30% more damage at max spell level.

Similarly, True Strike spellstrike (w/ cantrip) is worse than True Strike Power Attack on the fighter.

Math @ level 11

Magus damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 2 + 6d6 (21) + 4 = 52

Magus maximum damage w/ Inexorable Iron = 0.6(52) + 0.1(52) +0.1(6d4 persistent) = 36.4 + persistent

Fighter damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 3 = 28

Fighter max damage = 0.7 (28)+0.2(28)+0.45(28)+0.05(28)=1.4(28)=39.2

And this is one of the better levels for magus, on either side of this fighter gains damage relatively.

What is the breakdown with a 1d8 or 1d10, since magus relies less on weapon damage. Does that include damage from arcane cascade?

[Riddlyn]

Ok for the sake of simplicity I'll go with a d6 weapon and laughing shadow.

At level 11 the damage should look like this on a spellstrike on a flat-footed opponent

(2d6+6)+ (6d6+4)+2
Weapon Cantrip. Cascade

Is my math off somewhere?

[Exocist]

Riddlyn wrote:

Exocist wrote:

Spellstrike w/ cantrip is actually behind fighter/barb/ranger doing 2 strikes by about 10%. Don’t mistake the large number of dice being rolled and the damage all being lumped on one attack for the fact that it does a lot more damage. It doesn’t. A slotted spell or focus spell is about 20-30% more damage at max spell level.

Similarly, True Strike spellstrike (w/ cantrip) is worse than True Strike Power Attack on the fighter.

Math @ level 11

Magus damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 2 + 6d6 (21) + 4 = 52

Magus maximum damage w/ Inexorable Iron = 0.6(52) + 0.1(52) +0.1(6d4 persistent) = 36.4 + persistent

Fighter damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 3 = 28

Fighter max damage = 0.7 (28)+0.2(28)+0.45(28)+0.05(28)=1.4(28)=39.2

And this is one of the better levels for magus, on either side of this fighter gains damage relatively.

What's your breakdown on the Magus damage?

2d12 (Greater striking whatever) + 2d6 (2 property runes) + 5 (strength) + 2 (weapon specialisation) + 6d6 (6th level gouging claw) + 4 (int mod) + persistent (gouging claw crit)

Adding arcane cascade (2) increases the damage by 1.4 (0.7 * 2).

[Riddlyn]

I forgot the property runes

[Exocist]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Exocist wrote:

Spellstrike w/ cantrip is actually behind fighter/barb/ranger doing 2 strikes by about 10%. Don’t mistake the large number of dice being rolled and the damage all being lumped on one attack for the fact that it does a lot more damage. It doesn’t. A slotted spell or focus spell is about 20-30% more damage at max spell level.

Similarly, True Strike spellstrike (w/ cantrip) is worse than True Strike Power Attack on the fighter.

Math @ level 11

Magus damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 2 + 6d6 (21) + 4 = 52

Magus maximum damage w/ Inexorable Iron = 0.6(52) + 0.1(52) +0.1(6d4 persistent) = 36.4 + persistent

Fighter damage = 2d12 (13) + 2d6 (7) + 5 + 3 = 28

Fighter max damage = 0.7 (28)+0.2(28)+0.45(28)+0.05(28)=1.4(28)=39.2

And this is one of the better levels for magus, on either side of this fighter gains damage relatively.

What is the breakdown with a 1d8 or 1d10, since magus relies less on weapon damage. Does that include damage from arcane cascade?

No Arcane Cascade as activating it is very awkward. You can add it, it will add 2*0.7 or 1.4 damage, still behind the fighter by about 5%. On one of the better levels for them. To illustrate a point, I'll use 1d8 for both classes and give you the breakdown at 1,5,10,15,20.

For simplicity's sake I'll assume 70% to hit for the fighter and 60% for the magus (even though that's not true at level 5, it's 5% higher for both) as that is the average, and true for 13/20 levels. This lets us trivially multiply the fighter's damage by 1.4 (70% hit chance first attack, 45% second) to get their expected output, and the magus' by 0.7 (60% hit chance first attack) to get theirs. In other words, if the magus' damage is not double or more of the fighter's, they are behind.

Fighter damage @

1 - 1d8+4 (8.5)

5 - 2d8+4 (13)

10 - 2d8+2d6+8 (24)

15 - 3d8+2d6+13 (33.5)

20 - 4d8+3d6+15 (43.5)

Magus damage @

1 - 1d8+1d6+4+3 (15) - behind

5 - 2d8+3d6+4+4 (27.5) - ahead

10 - 2d8+2d6+5d6+5+4+2 (44.5) - behind.

15 - 3d8+2d6+8d6+5+5+6 (64.5) - behind.

20 - 4d8 + 3d6 + 10d6 + 7 + 5 + 6 (81.5) - behind.

Arcane cascade adds 1 to the 1st and 5th, leaving the results unchanged. 2 to the 10th, leaving the results unchanged. 3 to the 15th and 20th, making them slightly ahead at 15 (although fighter gets a property rune slot next level, pushing them ahead again).

Then, one must consider that the magus can't do this every round unless they're standing still, they need to recharge.

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I did this calculation a while ago for a homebrew class I was making (except it was limited to melee only with no chance to get ranged). I initially had it have damage scaling at investigator strategic strike rate (for 2 action attacks), but I decided to check it mathematically and it was extremely far behind for a martial. 1d6/2 levels was needed to get it where I wanted (below a fighter, but only 5-10% below, no feats considered).

[Riddlyn]

Then it looks about right. That's the fighters main shtick. The Magus is not far behind him and has a much greater ability to target weaknesses. Though cascade is very simple to pop up.

[Kalaam]

Hm...I wonder...
How does Spell Swipe interract with Magic Missile ? (or even normal spellstrike).

Do you choose how many projectiles hit each target ?

[Seisho]

I think magic missle can't be used for spellstrike in the first place, it hast neither an attack roll nor a dc

[Unicore]

@Exocist, your math isn't adding up to me.

1st of all, my claim was about spell striking with a spell slot against a boss (using true strike or a hero point). True strike and hero points both effect the math differently and are difficult to exactly calculate. True strike is a little simpler, because dice are rolled at the same time, but hero points have an if/than that gets complicated because it is a bad idea to reroll if you hit.

Also, against a boss, assuming 70/60% hit rates is pretty unreasonable.

Also, we were talking about spell strike vs power attack, so that second attack isn't something to factor in.

Lastly, giving the fighter 1.4x damage doesn't make any sense to me even with 2 attacks and none of this is calculating critical hit damage very accurately either, since the probability of critical hits is tied to accuracy.

Assuming a maul and your damage numbers generally the magus' damage with a cantrip is 52, but the fighter should be

4d12+2d6+8 = 41 (+2 weapon dice since we are looking at level 11)

so the question is whether the 10% accuracy boost is worth 11 additional points of damage for the base DPR and the answer is no. Now a lot depends on whether that 10% crosses over a number that reduces the magus to 5% crit or less while keeping fighter over that threshold, so the actual defense does play a big roll in the final calculation, but generally speaking an additional 11 points of base damage average is a very large difference.

[HumbleGamer]

Since we are talking about spells, what do you think of Hasted assault?

I really like it, but I given the -10 MAP on spellstrike I am not sure whether to use it or something different.

Would ( don't really had the time to tweak with the Magus ) alternate spellstrike to normal strikes ( especially with an agile weapon ), in order to benefit from hasted assault, be something worth expending a lvl 14 feat ( and also using a focus point )?

Or would be better to take, for example, multitalented wizard ( lvl 9 ) and then basic wizard spellcasting with a ring of wizardry ( to get 3x haste and 3x true strike per day )?

[Kalaam]

Seisho wrote:

I think magic missle can't be used for spellstrike in the first place, it hast neither an attack roll nor a dc

Expansive Spellstrike allows it, since it's a harmful spell that targets a creature.

[Unicore]

Kalaam wrote:

Seisho wrote:

I think magic missle can't be used for spellstrike in the first place, it hast neither an attack roll nor a dc

Expansive Spellstrike allows it, since it's a harmful spell that targets a creature.

It seems like that is going to up to GM interpretation. Hopefully they do let you use all the missiles split between the right number of targets for the feats you have. Other than getting to do force damage, it is not a very good spell to spell strike with since it already hits automatically, and you can only use 2 actions for the casting

[Kalaam]

Well, this is decent action economy compression. 1 Strike+2 action MM or 2+strikes (when you upgrade swipe to whirlwind)+2 actions MM.

[Castilliano]

Kalaam wrote:

Well, this is decent action economy compression. 1 Strike+2 action MM or 2+strikes (when you upgrade swipe to whirlwind)+2 actions MM.

Yes, but is it good slot use?

And it'll often involve moving, plus recharging Spellstrike.
I'd rather not lose 1/3 of the my spell's damage before even rolling.

Of course, the 3-action casting requires a free hand for components, so one has to consider how that interacts with one's style. I wouldn't take the spell unless I could cast the full version w/o extra effort.

[beowulf99]

Castilliano wrote:

Kalaam wrote:

Well, this is decent action economy compression. 1 Strike+2 action MM or 2+strikes (when you upgrade swipe to whirlwind)+2 actions MM.

Yes, but is it good slot use?

And it'll often involve moving, plus recharging Spellstrike.
I'd rather not lose 1/3 of the my spell's damage before even rolling.

Of course, the 3-action casting requires a free hand for components, so one has to consider how that interacts with one's style. I wouldn't take the spell unless I could cast the full version w/o extra effort.

I thought the Magus could swap Material components for Somatic using the tip of their weapon.

Arcane Spellcasting wrote:

Because you're a magus, you can draw replacement sigils with the tip of your weapon or your free hand for spells requiring material components, replacing them with somatic components instead of needing a material component pouch.

Doesn't that mean you don't need a free hand? Otherwise, I have some rethinking to do about an Inexorable Iron magus I'm working on...

[Unicore]

Doesn’t scorching ray work out much better in every way, with the exception of resistances and weaknesses?

It doesn’t split the damage for multiple targets and it actually benefits from those times you crit on the weapon attack.

[Kalaam]

Absolutely, Scorching Ray is more appropriate. But I was just thinking of situations where you'd try to hit several opponents. MM also benefit from not missing unless you crit fail your weapon attack.
The situations where it's the best option are niche (like swarmed by a lot of weaker ennemies to use Whirlwind Spell on)

[Kyrone]

People just sleeping on the best spells to take with Magus...

Sigil and Message.

As I play in the Foundry with the health estimate module that shows when someone is close to die, can just use Spellstrike with sigil to leave your mark on the corpse to have the proof that you killed it or to give your victim the last words that they will ever hear "Get rekt and die lol".