Sundering the crown / sparing the villain? [Spoilers chapter 6]


Curse of the Crimson Throne


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Hey all! I'm reading through the adventure path, and something occurred to me while I was looking at the final battle and then item codex. Has anyone's party attempted to destroy the crown of fangs and spare Ileosa? Reading through it seems fairly difficult but not impossible. You'd have to remove the crown from Ileosa's head and destroy it with Serithial, and even without the crown Ileosa herself is still a reasonably potent enemy (and specified to still be evil), and backed by a Taniniver and her simulacrum.

But as difficult as it might be, it doesn't honestly seem that complicated; grapple Ileosa, yank the crown off her head, and smash it. It's probably more complicated than just head on fighting her, but it's certainly doable; I don't see anything on her sheet that makes her immune to maneuvers. So I'm curious, has anyone done it? Or at least tried to?


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I suspect it's a matter of presentation. While one with full knowledge of the situation could perhaps argue that Ileosa is Kazavon's first victim, as-written Kazavon is little more than a battery and inspiration for Ileosa. It's with her full knowledge and consent that every evil thing in Curse of the Crimson Throne happens, and while getting the crown away from her would weaken her just like voiding her infernal contract would, it's not going to change who she has become. And, short of continuing the campaign past the end of the AP, there isn't really an opportunity to go through a redemption story arc where your players could convince Ileosa that her actions were wrong and redeem her, since as the final villain obviously the story ends once she has been defeated.

So with those factors in mind, it's highly unusual for the idea of smashing the crown and "saving" Ileosa to even occur to the normal group of players. She's the bad guy, players kill bad guy, go have a party afterwards is how these things usually go. There are especially Good-aligned player characters who will go above and beyond trying to give even the worst villains a second chance, but it's a fairly rare occurrence, in part due to the game system being focused around physical conflict rather than more social conflicts like a debate. Generally even someone like a paladin will smite the evil kingdom-ravaging dragon rather than teach it the value of trade and being a productive member of society.

So, if you want that to be a story beat when you're running this AP, you will probably need to at least hint at this being an option, because it probably will not occur naturally to your players. Ideally, you should also give them a reason to want to spare Ileosa. You don't really even need to change all that much from the AP as-written if you don't want to, but you do need to either play up the dichotomy of how Ileosa was before the crown vs. after, or give her some redeeming feature or friendly-aligned NPC that can convince the PCs to want to spare her despite what she's done.

Basically, you need to somehow present that sparing Ileosa is an option, and give them a reason to want to do so, particularly if it's a harder option than just stabbing her with Serathiel until she's dead. And as-written, doing anything other than stabbing her to death is a mistake (unless you're one of those above-and-beyond merciful Good-aligned types with a plan for what to do with her afterwards), because she's the classic femme fatale who will exploit any kindness as a weakness, and kill whoever gets in her way the moment they cease being useful to her.


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Yeah, for reference, even before she became afflicted by Kazavon's influence Ileosa was LE (Guide to Korvosa), and it's stated (I believe in book 1) that Kazavon gave her both the inspiration for several of her schemes, as well as took away the inhibitions that kept even a LE, lay about monarch from acting on any of them.

As for hinting to the party a possibility of saving her, if you keep Sabina Merin as written, she could be that last minute warning/plea for Ileosa to be spared and redeemed, as if no one else did, Sabina was the one person who loved Ileosa and knew a better side of her from far before Ileosa's corruption. Of course, regardless of her redemption, she still is unfit to rule, and Neolandus would still be able to oust her (making way for Cressida and/or a member of the party to take the thrown), but it could be an interesting end game "see how far we've come" to have the party seek out the main NPCs that have been wronged by Ileosa, to convince them to publicly forgive for her specific transgressions, so that public support of her execution after the fact dies off and the party's efforts to redeem her are not in vain.

*There's obviously Trinia, but hopefully someone on the party will have taken a liking to Trinia, or at least brought her on their adventures, so that even if Ileosa had wronged Trinia, Trinia wouldn't have wanted it another way.
*There's Neolandus, likely the first hurdle to convince as Ileosa is the actual head conspirator of Eodred's murder, and then tried to assassinate Neolandus himself. But Neolandus also knows the most about the corrupting influence of Kazavon's Fangs, and thus might most easily be swayed that Ileosa would have never done this.
*Then there is Vencarlo, the man who was always outspoken against Ileosa. Vencarlo prides himself in his nobility and reasonableness, so her could likely be shown that given the circumstances, an execution would be far too severe, and also rob Ileosa of any chance to make up to others for her failures in resisting Kazavon's influence.
*Trayce Soldado could likely act as a stand in for all the people killed by the Blood Veil, especially those eventually stranded in Old Korvosa. Here, instead of an appeal to her innocence, perhaps an appeal to greater honor would work best. How would Ileosa's death benefit people like Trayce now, and how is Trayce any better than Ileosa for wanting Ileosa dead out of spite, than when Ileosa sought to scourge the unsightly poor out of her own hatred?
*Next would be the Arkonas, if they're even still alive. Of course, if they aren't skip this step, but if they are, they want to see Ileosa fall for their own benefit, even if she never directly harmed them. Instead the party should convince them that in fact the queen is better off alive, and remembered for her failings (and the Arkona's mercies), than dead and forgotten.
*The Shoanti are also a questionably necessary group, as depending on if you made any modifications to the story, Ileosa never directly wronged them, but the support of the Shoanti is both crucial to a continued peace in Korvosa, and could still act as a display acceptance and kindness moving forward if they speak out against the execution.
*Next up would be Marcus Endrin, the man literally driven insane in the depths of the Deathshead Vault. Marcus has a strong sense of justice, which like Neolandus (and likely due to their close ties as Seneschal and commander of Sable Company), could be convince that a punishment for actions rendered while under evil influence, is not justice at all.
*Then there are the Grey Maidens, both their members have been wronged and they themselves have committed great wrongs against the city-state on Ileosa's behalf. This one could be heavily varied about ways to get the maiden's themselves to both accept their role within the city after their leader's downfall, and for the populace to be willing to accept them in that role as well. Ileosa stole their beauty, but gave them something debatably much better; you can grieve for the loss of one while still moving forward with the other. The populace would likely be willing to accept them under a bit of rebranding, as well as assurance that they will perform justly, which could both be done by folding them back into the guard under Cressida/her replacement.
*Lastly would be Cressida herself, likely the new Queen of Korvosa. Cressida was the leader of the rebellion, and even those not previously under her in the rebellion would likely follow her sway. She likely would be convinced simply by convincing those around her already (Neolandus, Marcus, Vencarlo, and maybe Trinia), but could also just be used as a marker for the party to know if they really have convinced enough people to your approval for the populous as a whole to accept Ileosa's chance at redemption.
*However, none of the above matters if they can't convince Ileosa to redeem herself. Obviously, the first step if they haven't done it, should be to free Ileosa from her infernal contract, so that her soul isn't still doomed to Hell regardless of whatever she does from here on out, but it should also be a symbol to her of her chance at redemption. Here, you should let the party come up with their own "punishment" for Ileosa's transgressions and convince her of both its necessity and why she should be redeeming herself at all.

In the end, despite the purpose of the task, this should be a good chance for several of these people to reminisce about the events of the AP with the players, in character, and should hopefully be a cool wrapup to the AP.


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I think those are all great characters to include for a potential "trial of Ileosa" to wrap up the AP with if your players would end up sparing her to answer for her crimes in some other fashion than at the point of their swords (or explosion of their fireballs?).

However, if you want to change things from how they are written, I would like to point out that of all the Paizo AP villains, I think Ileosa is the only one I can think of that has a plausible "alter-ego" to explain their actions that you could pull out in the form of Kazavon. As such, you could play off a lot of split personality/mental thriller/body horror tropes here if you wish to play up Kazavon's role in all of this. Anything from a Norman Osborn in Spiderman 1 scene of Kazavon tempting Ileosa to do all the things she never had the bravery to do, up to a "werewolf" Ileosa who is normally kind if naive/spoiled having frightening "black-out" periods in her memory where Kazavon takes over and does all of the horrible things which she only vaguely remembers, and grows increasingly horrified as she loses more and more control and the black-out periods become longer. Of course, the as-written version of Ileosa is perfectly fine too. It's all in what sort of storyline you want to try to get your players to buy into.

But if you do want them to buy into something that's a little unusual like saving/redeeming the villain of the story, there needs to be a reason for it - either because the villain is somehow sympathetic/has shown signs of being maybe redeemable, has some outside force asking for it (friendly NPCs like Sabrina who might still want to see Ileosa live), or the player characters are saintly merciful types that WILL go out of their way to redeem/spare anyone and everyone they can.


Wow, thanks guys! Very insightful and detailed, I really appreciate it. What drew me to the idea was actually Sabina's love for Ileosa. It seems like a really interesting plot beat that is a little wasted, since all the pieces are there for a "spare the villain" ending, but they are kind of hand-waved away instead (Which I understand! IMO the party shouldn't feel bad about killing the main boss.) With the crown swaying her towards evil already, it wouldn't take much alteration to say Kazavon was taking over her mind instead of just cutting her loose. A "green goblin" style mental takeover is a great idea. It just seems like such a cool missed opportunity, to have the heroes save the queen at the end (in all likelihood, she'd probably willingly abdicate the throne at this point were she saved.)

I'm not sure whether I'll do it or not, but it would be a pretty cool mix-up to the formula. If it would work on anyone, it would be my party. They kept trying to redeem/recruit Lucrecia the Lamia and Malfeshnekor the Barghest of all people (2 evil minor characters with little to no redeeming qualities), from Rise of the Runelords, and intend to play a "sailor moon" style cast of good characters this campaign, so it might just be in the cards. We'll see.


If you're really interested in Sabina's aspect of it, you could perhaps make her more important in the story, even in minor ways that reinforce her ties to the players so they are more likely to listen to her pleas at the end.

Because Sabina was in the guard before becoming the Queen's bodyguard, perhaps she can be the go between for the party and Kroft (as the party was still recruited by the queen); this also sorta increases the intrigue aspect of the first book. When book 2 comes along in the plague, especially if the party begins to think/realize its Ileosa's doing, Sabina can be there to assuage their suspicions, that she knows Ileosa would never do this (also hints at the change, tho this may get lost over the course of the campaign). At the start of book 3, maybe it's Sabina that warns the party that Ileosa has put a hit out on them, and even admits she doesn't think Ileosa is in her right mind. When the party returns for the Deathshead Vault in book 4, maybe Sabina sneaks out to meet with the party and Kroft (as the rebellion isn't quite in full swing yet) to explain that she has seen and heard some things about the recruitment methods for Grey Maidens that is highly disturbing. Book 5 doesn't matter, and there's already the event for book 6, it would just have to be adapted a little to account for her previous expressions of doubt in Ileosa.

Minor NSFW Suggestion:
The only other thing I would ever add (when I know its a thing they players can handle in their game) is a that I often have Ileosa take special interest in a single (female) member of the party, recruiting them as a second in command between book 2 and 3 as a way to assess what the party knows about Ileosa. Because she has suggestion as a performance (with a rather high DC for an 8th level character given her own rapid advancement), and because of her written interest in ladies, she takes them to her chambers after a showy induction and uses her magic to "fascinate" and suggestion the party member into spilling the beans of what they have learned while they are "distracted". It is still an opportunity for the party to see a lot of the shifting and consolidating of power first hand between these two books as well as a chance to explore the castle before eventually the party member has outlived their usefulness and pleasurableness, and it's time to make an escape to Old Korvosa.


How did I miss THIS thread?

Inspectre wrote:
{. . .} However, if you want to change things from how they are written, I would like to point out that of all the Paizo AP villains, I think Ileosa is the only one I can think of that has a plausible "alter-ego" to explain their actions that you could pull out in the form of Kazavon {. . .}

Actually had a thread a few years ago about which APs you could succeed in without killing the boss villains. (And since it has been several years since my original post there, I need to do an updated version of it when I get a chance.


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So, I started running this campaign myself last year after our previous one ended and I got a lot of inspiration from Inspectre! (Love your stuff good sir! Really helped me get the creative juices going to alter a lot of stuff into a much more memorable game for my group!)

One of the biggest changes I made was I made Illeosa a sympathetic character, more CN to start with, just a girl who got wrapped up in something that was bigger than herself being a pawn to the Arkona's and Andaisin's plot to get their hooks into the king at the beginning of the game.

I also have had the crown of fangs start to slowly influence her and start to push her towards corruption, using her insecurities and fear as fuel to fully let Kazavon's influence take over somewhere down the line. Early on, after they became a known quantity in the city to her and they had done a few things helpful to her, she actually invited them all to lunch just to try and get to know them better and hopefully make friends. (She's a young woman thrust into power who's been betrayed by the only person she's known for a long time and nearly everyone else is playing the political game, she's scared and lonely and was reaching out for support!)

So I actually think there is a good likelihood of something like this being possible in my game, once she devolves into madness they're going to have to decide do they try and save her? Or do they make absolutely sure that this monster can't come back and kill their friend instead!

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